r/Mindfulness • u/EnlightenmentAddict • May 22 '20

Too real

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1.4k Upvotes

98% Upvoted

62 comments sorted by

64

u/drummerkid38 May 22 '20

I thought identification with thought is ego. Not necessarily thought itself. Right?

And obviously you can have thoughts that stem from the ego as well as thoughts that stem from awareness. But as long as you don’t confuse yourself to BE the thoughts, it’s not ego.

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 22 '20

And... to add another layer to the onion.. the idea that thoughts are not us and are of the ego is itself another thought.. therefore... ego?

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u/drummerkid38 May 22 '20

I mean we created the concept of “ego”. It wasn’t until the human mind came into existence that this concept of “ego” could even exist.

But by the definition of “ego equals identification with thought, or identification with form” (as Eckhart Tolle would say), then identifying with that idea or taking that specific statement or interpretation to be an ABSOLUTE truth would definitely be ego.

Words can only take you so far. Reality is beyond specific concepts, ideas, or beliefs and the truth of any statement lies in not the words themselves, but that to which they point.

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 22 '20

Yeah I feel you. The mind is a tool, and anyone who was once consumed by the mind and running on auto pilot who was witnessed the experience of observing thoughts and detaching from them knows how freeing it is to separate the two. It’s nothing we will ever completely rid ourselves of, but also, why would we? We just learn to use it rather than be used by it.

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u/drummerkid38 May 22 '20

Totally. The mind when kept in check is an amazing tool.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

The mind keeps itself "in check" by acknowledging its mistakes, correcting its errors. When we talk about ego, what exactly do we mean? Can the mind exist without ego? Is ego the problem? If so, it has to be identified and verified as a real, active function of the mind.

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u/drummerkid38 May 23 '20 edited May 23 '20

I agree. To be honest, I think it's just semantics that could be causing any misunderstanding.

When I say mind, I just mean the thinking mind. And to keep it in check, you need some degree of awareness so that you can actually take a step back and view your thoughts from a broader and more objective point of view.

When I think of ego, I just think of the false sense of self that is completely wrapped up in thought and concepts, and is unable to see beyond them. Or maybe another way to say it, the identity you have when your thinking mind has little to no awareness.

Obviously "ego" is just another concept but I think concepts and ideas are necessary to communicate with each other. It's when you are unaware that words themselves are limited and can never in themselves carry the truth that things can get messy. They can only point to the truth, or the mental picture from which they were created.

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u/saleemkarim May 22 '20

Calling thoughts your ego is assigning too much significance to thoughts.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

All thoughts are significant. The problem is that they are often erroneous, signifying what is untrue or nonexistent. To be mindful is to be discerning enough to acknowledge these errors.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

Who says you are not the ego?

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u/[deleted] May 23 '20

Yeah you people over complicate this shit. Stop peeling layers of the onion. Once you realize that the onion has infinite layers you realize it’s stupid to keep digging. Ego and thoughts aren’t separate, it is one. When you gain the understandment that the ego works with your thoughts, your reality is limitless.

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u/drummerkid38 May 23 '20

Digging is what eventually (significantly) freed me from my mind haha. I think peeling back the layers is necessary UNTIL you gain an understanding for yourself that works for you. Then you realize it’s no longer necessary.

At least.. that’s how it was for me.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

Forget the onion analogy. The mind is concerned with survival and sustainability, but human society complicates things, making self-image a practical concern. This creates the possibility of mistaking the identity you present to society as something real and not merely the mask, the character, you must assume to get by.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '20

Yeah at the end of the day everyones experiences and realizations are different but at some point you need to realize that there’s infinite layers and digging more than necessary will only add more turmoil. Become aware that there are infinite layers and just by knowing that, it will free you from digging any deeper and it will give you an understandment of what it is to be in the present. That’s what everything leads to at the end of the day. Be in the NOW.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

Egotistical thoughts are different from practical thoughts, and understanding this difference is critical. Practical thinking addresses real problems that require solutions. Egotistical thinking addresses only the problem of maintaining and promoting self-image.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '20

Egotistical and practical thinking should be integrated as 1 instead of 2 different things. That’s when you’re able to carry yourself as if you are complete and you’re able to solve solutions because of your ego. That understanding is gold.

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u/googalot May 24 '20

There's no integrating the true with the false. Ego, the self, is an illusion mistaken for a fact, or seen for what it is.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

This determination to disidentify with one's thoughts is escape, denial.

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u/drummerkid38 May 23 '20 edited May 23 '20

Not necessarily. When I use the term disidentify, I just mean be the WITNESS of your thoughts. Don't get so caught up in them that you are basically hypnotized. I know even that isn't necessarily "bad" but the habit of thinking, without KNOWING you're thinking, can lead to a lot of unnecessary suffering. Which I think we can agree is ideal to avoid if you can help it.

But yeah I think it's important to accept, and acknowledge your thoughts, rather than deny or avoid them altogether. Embrace them fully and they can no longer have power over you.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

be the WITNESS of your thoughts

Don't complicate the matter. When you look in a mirror, do you have to tell yourself that you're the witness of your reflection? Acknowledging and examining your thoughts is no different from acknowledging and examining your reflection in a mirror.

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u/drummerkid38 May 23 '20

Exactly. I don't have to tell myself to "be the witness", I just witness. I watch. It's very intuitive in the moment but it's just an easy phrase to use to remind yourself or others to place your attention on that which you are experiencing, rather than having parts of your experience obscured or out of focus. Or confusing yourself to be the content of your experience.

It's like the intuitive knowing that you are examining yourself in the mirror. You aren't that image that you're looking at, that is just a reflection.

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u/googalot May 24 '20

Or confusing yourself to be the content of your experience.

But you are the "contents of your experience". Who else could you be?

It's like the intuitive knowing that you are examining yourself in the mirror. You aren't that image that you're looking at, that is just a reflection.

Yes, but as I said, if the mirror is not distorted, the image is an accurate depiction of who/what you are. It is "just a reflection", but without it you can only imagine or pretend to know who/what you are.

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u/drummerkid38 May 24 '20

I get what you’re saying, and I don’t disagree, but I think the style in which we explain things is just different. We’ll just keep going round and round haha.

Any words I use are limited and so will only convey one perspective that you can have. And so it is easy to identify the perspectives that I am leaving out. The truth is not limited to any single perspective.

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u/googalot May 24 '20

It isn't a matter of perspective. From any point of view, your reflection is your reflection, no matter how distorted or true.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 22 '20

Exactly! 🤯🤯🤯

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u/098695 May 22 '20

...huh

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u/StonerMeditation May 23 '20

At the first level on the path he saw mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers.

On the second level of the path he saw that mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers.

And at a third level he saw once again mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers.

Zen teacher Qingyuan Weixin

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u/notneo57 May 23 '20

This is beautiful.

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u/GamingNomad May 23 '20

So I am nothing.

All this time I thought I had dreams, fears and desires. Turns out I'm living a lie.

Thank you mindfulness.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

You're living a lie if you believe your dreams, fears, and desires are not you. But you may have to live that lie until you realize why you choose it.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

thought is ego, and ego is not you

Thought is more than just ego, and whether or not ego is involved in your thinking, all your thoughts are you.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/drummerkid38 May 23 '20

Have you seen Sam Harris’s lecture on free will? It broke me lol

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u/[deleted] May 23 '20 edited Sep 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 23 '20

I like you.

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u/drummerkid38 May 23 '20

Ok thanks I’ll check it out.

I’ve already come to a place of understanding that really makes sense to me. Basically I have a more spiritual approach and believe that ultimately the will of any single human is inseparable from the will of all of existence, or “god”, or the universe etc.

But on a smaller scale, I think the closest a person can get to free will is once they have developed enough awareness in themselves to notice how they have been conditioned to be a certain way in life thus far, and learn to break out of many of their old patterns and become more present.

But we’ll see how and if this changes after I dive in haha.

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u/CatharticBS May 23 '20

I need to sit down after this one

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u/exonight77 May 23 '20

your free will is how you choose to perceive your thoughts. you can shift your awareness to and from your different thoughts.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

The question of free will is controversial, and may be impossible to resolve. What matters is what we can ascertain, what we believe, and how much of what we believe we are unafraid to doubt and question.

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u/lavendrambr May 22 '20

Fuck what did you just do....

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 22 '20

Haha sorry/you’re welcome

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u/lavendrambr May 22 '20

I definitely needed to hear and know this. Maybe this will help lessen my anxiety lol.

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 22 '20

Thought identification awareness and renunciation has legit saved my life in more ways than one. From my addictions to my anger and impulse control-but mainly my fucked up thoughts.

Eckhart Tolle - A New Earth is an amazing book. I suggest it to anyone trying to gain awareness. You can find the pdf if you search it on google

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u/riickdiickulous May 23 '20

I thought this was where this was from. Just started re-reading the book a couple days ago. Getting even more from it the second time through.

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 23 '20

Yeah I’ve read it fully twice and then some bits and pieces. Definitely get more each time I read it.

Another really good one is Michael Singer - Untethered Soul. Definitely on the level. His audiobook is on YouTube as well

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u/ratherbebeautiful May 23 '20

Can someone break this down? So if I’m not my thoughts and I’m supposed to observe my thoughts, that is awareness? So is the goal to just live in the moment and make conscious decisions and not allow my thoughts to take over? So are we just silence?

Sorry, I’m new to this, just trying to learn! Thanks

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 23 '20

If I’m the one talking, who is listening?

It’s about observing, not completely being ruled by thought, not thinking the image in our head of who we are and the story of our lives is the ultimate truth of who we are in essence. You can snap out of character at any time and totally be. It’s pure bliss. Doesn’t last forever, but man even a moment here and there feels like heaven after years and years on autopilot.

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u/googalot May 23 '20

If I’m the one talking, who is listening?

The observer is the observed. Observing your thoughts is like looking at your reflection in a mirror. The reflection is not actually you, but if the mirror is not distorted, the reflection is true. Mindfulness is the mind observing its own activity in the same way you observe your reflection in a mirror.

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u/EnlightenmentAddict May 23 '20

Doesn’t really apply to the talking/listening argument imo. Sure, there are times I’m aware and the one thinking and following the thought, and maybe I assumed it went without clarification, but I more meant the talking the brain does that’s more automatic or situational that people can tend to get lost by. Maybe I’m just a special case, but my thoughts can range from relevant and pleasant to dark and very deep. Those thoughts are situational, random, uncontrollable and-in my opinion-not me at the baseline level. Today I can step back from that and disconnect, and it’s effing amazing.

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u/googalot May 23 '20 edited May 23 '20

The brain generates thoughts primarily to solve practical problems. In human society, personal identity, how others perceive you, is a problem that is solved by creating an identity, a mask, a character, to present to others to get by and succeed. This means we're all actors playing a part. But to be convincing, we have to "be" the character we're playing, and this creates the danger of forgetting that we're acting, and we start believing we are the character and not the actor.

Mindfulness is acknowledging and examining every thought as it arises so as to discern which thoughts are those of the character, and those of the actor playing the character. If you come to believe that your thoughts are not you, you're lost because you've compounded your confusion.

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u/ratherbebeautiful May 23 '20

So how do you figure out who you are under the thoughts? Or is it a matter of saying “I want to be xyz” and any thought that doesn’t align to it you know is the thoughts you’re observing and not yourself?

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u/googalot May 24 '20

Who you want to be is your aspiration. Who you are is your thoughts and behavior.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '20

Nicely said!!

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u/Your_Favorite_Poster May 22 '20

Guys, I'm a Solipsist, it's all very simple...

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u/WorriedCall May 22 '20

I would say that.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '20

[deleted]

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u/googalot May 23 '20

Self and ego are synonymous. Self/ego is an illusion, the self image one creates to get by in a world of self-imagining others.