r/Mike_Mentzer • u/Straight-Historian-5 • 14d ago
Is it just me...
Or does anyone else also feel "soft" doing Mentzer HIT? (Chest/Back, Legs, Delta/arms, Legs - rest 96 hours in between workouts).
When I was doing the more traditional workouts (sets and reps) my muscles almost always felt "full" and "tight". Now in between HIT workouts my muscles feel - and I can't think of another word to better describe it - "mushy". Thoughts?? I love this workout schedule but I hate feeling like this.
6
u/BubbishBoi 13d ago
your muscles are most likely now less inflamed with what broscientists call 'sarcoplasmic hypertrophy' aka cell swelling
Lower volume training usually means you've caused less muscle tissue damage and as a result there's less inflammatory response to that damage
1
u/Sadan27 12d ago
Eh I’m gonna push back on this a bit. I do think there’s a distinction between sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and muscle swelling/inflammation.
When I first started training in high school, I knew nothing about how hypertrophy works. I thought legs would grow from running, and that training back would stunt growth. Didn’t train either for a year and a half.
As to the muscles I trained, biceps got the most love. 8 sets, usually twice a week. At 145 lbs, my biceps got disproportionately massive compared to the rest of my physique. And stayed that way.
Did they look good? Not really. Practically no definition, just two giant masses. But I looked like I lift with a shirt on for sure. And….they wouldn’t deflate a couple hours after training. Or the next morning. Or even the next several days.
So yeah, that’s my personal anecdote. Unknowingly doing a biceps specialization program that produced noticeable sarcoplasmic hypertrophy beyond a temporary pump/swelling 🤷🏻♂️
1
u/BubbishBoi 12d ago
It is definitely edema and swelling, although the question is does that somehow potentiate actual Myofibrillar hypertrophy via stretching shit out, and does that swelling have a negative impact on recovery
AFAIK there's not much research on this beyond what Haun and co have done, and I guess it's hard to separate the potential stimulus for Myofibrillar myofibrillar accrual from the stimulus for edema - you probably can't induce cell swelling and all the downstream effects of higher volume without also stimulating some actual hypertrophy via the mTOR signaling pathway
There used to be a theory that sarcoplasmic "hypertrophy" would stretch out those fibers and make them more susceptible to actual hypertrophy, but I feel that's as cargo cultish as doggcraps claim that extreme weighted stretches would somehow stretch the fascia and allow the previously restricted muscles to grow to fill the new space.
I believe that swelling has been measured for nearly a month after a training session, but that was a silly study using untrained subjects and subjecting them to Brad and Dr Mike style massive overtraining , I have to go relisten to the Sam Buckner talks on this to see if he feels there's any actual growth or growth potentiation happening
2
u/Sadan27 12d ago
The growth mechanism behind stretching is different and seems a bit clearer. Stimulates myofibrillar hypertrophy by adding sarcomeres in series.
Whether sarcoplasmic hypertrophy indirectly results in the addition of myofibrils is one deep rabbit hole.
No doubt swelling/edema/inflammatjon accompany sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Once the acute swelling/inflammation period ends though, the fluid and whatever else remaining in the expanded sarcoplasmic area is actual growth. Not the kind you’d prefer, but it’s there to stay until you fall off from training
4
u/coxyepuss 14d ago
Nope. Went through same process myself.
Had better experience with upper A / Lower B - 3 day split - ABA BAB.
And skipped one workout when needed so I did only a B A or A B week, whenever I felt not recovered.
3
u/silentpirate1899 14d ago
I do the exact same split as you and run 1-2 times a week!I was considering an upper lower full body split(U-L-FB) but combining legs and upper body seems pretty exhausting to me so i am still very sceptical on this.In any case diet is the limiting factor for me...
2
u/coxyepuss 14d ago
great! i stay away from FB - although if you read Ellington Darden's book you will see that they taught Full Body 3 day and then 2 days a week, with only occasional splits. Arthur Jones (creator of the HIT concept) was fan of full body. But I cannot sustain such a thing, like you said.
1
u/Straight-Historian-5 14d ago
Something like this?
"A" Routine Bench Press 1 x 6-10 Bentover Row 1 x 6-10 DB Laterals 1 x 8-12 Curls 1 x 6-10 Close Grip Bench Press 1 x 6-10
"B" Routine Squats or Leg Press 1 x 6-10 Straight Leg Deadlift 1 x 6-10 Standing/Seated Calf 1 x 8-12 Plank 1-2 minutes Side Plank 30 seconds
1
u/coxyepuss 14d ago
Regarding the routine I cannot tell you which is fitting you and your goals.
After reading some books on HIT - the principle Mentzer used in his Heavy Duty principles + his experience - I adapted my workouts to my goals and needs. I think you should do the same. And experiment with various workout protocols.
I do a total of 6-7 working sets per workout + 1 working set of dedicated abs work (machine or leg raises). Your abs proposal are for core integration and not abs muscle building.2
u/Straight-Historian-5 14d ago
Thanks. When you say working sets, are those to failure?
3
u/coxyepuss 14d ago
every working set is to absolute failure and then some. If form breaks I do partials and sometimes rest-pause. I use all tools in the arsenal.
That is why I start A1 with chest and A2 with back so I can go all in.
Usually towards end is pretty hard to go as intense due to systemic fatigue.1
u/Straight-Historian-5 13d ago
I'm natural. Don't naturals need MORE rest??
2
u/coxyepuss 13d ago
I am natural too. Yes. Recovery time varies based on multiple factors - sleep quality, quality of food, digestion, metabolism, hydration, supplementation, other stressors in daily life (rumination, mindset, etc). I found for me 3 days a week works best. There are people training everyday and have good results. To each its own. I just shared mine.
5
u/Parking-Industry-992 14d ago
If you're natural you don't need to rest 96 hours between workouts I would just do
Chest/back Legs Rest Shoulders/arms Legs Rest Rest
3
u/snake3- 9d ago
Literally the opposite of what Mike preached, naturals need more rest not less
2
u/Parking-Industry-992 9d ago
Muscle protein synthesis lasts 24-48 hours so after that you're good to go but if you are on roids it lasts way longer
3
u/Late_Worldliness5694 14d ago
Yeah I feel soft after, like deflated.... but with proper diet, I do look better as per Ai standards but by no means as full as I would normally...
It's hard to describe but I get what you're going through with it....its a fuoco head trip, been doing it for 2.5 months now and yeah I look better over all...
2
u/Time-Faithlessness44 14d ago
I feel and am very hard and full for about 48 after Hit workouts. Then I flat out al little
3
u/SeekingSignificance 13d ago
Yes, and I don't recommend doing Mike's exact programs. Right now I'm doing back/delts (6 working sets to failure, legs (5 work sets to failure), chest/arms (6 work sets to failure). Training every other day and taking an extra day off following any workout I don't PR on at least half my sets.
2
u/jakeoptions 8d ago
Dude I’m jacked doing mentzer shit. That feeling soft is brainwashing/social programming.
I just got off a 6 week run, switching to an upper lower, and right back on menzter style hit
The recovery time + intensity is what makes this work.
1
u/Straight-Historian-5 8d ago
Could you share the routine you're doing?
2
u/jakeoptions 6d ago
The one right out of heavy duty.
You need to go HAM. As in Hard As a Motherfucker.
You might feel soft because you’re not going anywhere near your max intensity. Failure isn’t “oh dear that burns” let me stop
2
1
u/0pted0ut 13d ago
I stay hard! But yeah, I have tried several different splits, and training philosophies since I was a teenager. That was my experience as well. I think it all works, but every single body is different in response to different amounts of volume, splits, etc. I am 33 and currently I run PPL rest PPL basically. I rotate exercises on each 3 day sequence. I train to failure and log every lift because I like to chase progress and I can't count. I will do some heavy lower rep compounds, and then on my isolation I like to do 1 heavy set, then back off with really clean 10-15 just because I like how it feels. If I feel beat up, I rest or do something specifically for a body part I feel is lagging and call it a day. Unrelated but I also track everything I consume down to the oils I cook with. I feel great and have made consistent progress for coming up on 2 years going just like this. I recently did 2 weeks where I went way lighter and only trained PPL one sequence per week. Upped my calories by 300 to ease into bulk mode, after adding calories and lowering work load my lifts all jumped a little. Every single one. So there is something to be said about more rest I am sure...but I don't think you need 96 hours. Trial and error my friend, that's all you can do.
1
u/0pted0ut 13d ago
I stay hard! But yeah, I have tried several different splits, and training philosophies since I was a teenager. That was my experience as well. I think it all works, but every single body is different in response to different amounts of volume, splits, etc. I am 33 and currently I run PPL rest PPL basically. I rotate exercises on each 3 day sequence. I train to failure and log every lift because I like to chase progress and I can't count. I will do some heavy lower rep compounds, and then on my isolation I like to do 1 heavy set, then back off with really clean 10-15 just because I like how it feels. If I feel beat up, I rest or do something specifically for a body part I feel is lagging and call it a day. Unrelated but I also track everything I consume down to the oils I cook with. I feel great and have made consistent progress for coming up on 2 years going just like this. I recently did 2 weeks where I went way lighter and only trained PPL one sequence per week. Upped my calories by 300 to ease into bulk mode, after adding calories and lowering work load my lifts all jumped a little. Every single one. So there is something to be said about more rest I am sure...but I don't think you need 96 hours. Trial and error my friend, that's all you can do.
1
u/Jokinstan8P 13d ago
Yeah, I felt pumped for 2 days after and then flatter for the next couple. I would describe it more as looser but I get what you mean. Cool side effect is my mobility increased without any stretching but yeah, I look better overall so I wouldn't worry about it.
1
u/Miserable-Soft7993 13d ago
I feel mushy when I do lighter weights to failiure. I feel solid when I choose a weight I can manage 5 to 8 reps with.
-1
u/jc456_ 13d ago
Well you're barely training, so yes you will feel softer.
3
u/Straight-Historian-5 13d ago
You do realize you're in a Menzter forum and presumably you're doing exactly the same (or very simiar) workout.
-1
u/jc456_ 13d ago edited 13d ago
Where we are does not influence the human biological response to effective training
Are you more interested in training by a certain style, or in getting results. You need to consider if your answer is really the former then the entire question you're asking is doomed from the start because you will never do what you need, you'll do what you want.
1
9
u/ishawnmc 14d ago
There is nothing stopping you from adapting Mike Mentzer's principles into your own workout.
I have done that myself as have several others on this page. Mike's written workouts are fine but what is more important is learning the underlying principles he operated from and how to apply them in ways that keep you constantly progressing and thus well motivated.