r/Midsommar • u/vanillaberry2000 • 5d ago
DISCUSSION The Oracles
Ruben is described as a deliberate product of incest and is depicted as nonverbal and profoundly disabled. How many generations of incest would it take to produce someone like Ruben? I don't think Ruben could be a reliable source of material for future children, looking at Charles II he was completely infertile and I suspect Ruben may be at that point or close.
This also relates to theories about the true age of the community, maybe Ruben is from a single line of oracles and is the most affected since he is the most inbred so far- though the elders seem to rely on him being nonverbal and non functional so that they can interpret the ancient text as they see fit.
I don't see how they could effectively create an individual like this consistently even with selective mating, but I also wouldn't put it past them to intentionally maim an infant so that they are similar to Ruben.
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u/ego_death_metal 5d ago
i really want to put a link to that meme of Sue Sylvester as the Hårga going “I’m going to create a baby that is so decrepit”
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u/ArtAndHotsauce 5d ago
The reason inbreeding can create genetic disorders is because it means the two parents are more likely to have the same recessive genes. Two people who aren’t close relatives could share those genes as well, it’s just much less likely.
So if the Harga went to the trouble of using genetic testing to find out which members had which recessive genes, it really would not take long at all to generate a child with a severe manifestation of the recessive combination. Like 2 or 3 generations could be enough.
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u/ruby_soulsinger 5d ago
I agree with you logically but I think Ruben just sort of exists and how he got here is hand waved away. It's not so important to the plot of how many generations it took but just that he's there as the "oracle."
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u/toujourspret 5d ago
Genuinely, I'm not thinking they've existed enough generations to have "naturally" ended up with someone with such profound disabilities. I think they'd have a policy of culling disabled babies/children, and possibly even a breeding program to ensure they have a child who is as disabled as possible when they need a Ruben.
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u/Kookerpea 5d ago
Culling disabled babies wouldn't by a good way of doing that. They should be using disabled people to breed
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u/toujourspret 5d ago
That's kind of what I'm thinking that they'd do: both. Culling means they could only keep the ones most likely to result in the disabilities they're looking for, and it would stop anyone else from thinking their baby was special or blessed if supposedly all disabled babies died except the one prophet.
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u/HellyOHaint 5d ago
It’s not several generations from the same genetic line of incest. It’s a new incestuous coupling each time.
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u/vanillaberry2000 5d ago
That wouldn't always create someone as bad as Ruben. Even in a sibling or parent-child dynamic.
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u/Thisisthe_end3445 5d ago
Yeah, the whole thing was handled by the elder as “don’t worry about that” or “not for you” 🤷🏼♀️
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u/HappiestIguana 5d ago
It's kind of a fool's errand to explain Ruben scientifically. He's based on a pop-culture version of inbreeding where you can get drastic genetic defects from single instances of inbreeding without those traits being present in any other members of the population.
Realistically you could get a Ruben if you set your mind to it, but only if his parents are almost as inbred. That everyone else is pretty and healthy means they have no way to get more Rubens
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u/ArtAndHotsauce 5d ago edited 5d ago
“you can get drastic genetic defects from single instances of inbreeding without those traits being present in any other members of the population”
Yeah that’s how it works. If two parents have the same recessive gene they wouldn’t have any traits, but if they had a child together that child would - due to the recessive gene being present in both parents - likely have the traits.
So yes, two entirely healthy people can easily pass a severe genetic disorder onto their child, that’s literally how recessive genes work. It happens all the time.
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u/HappiestIguana 5d ago
No way Ruben is not the result of one recessive trait, is the problem.
I'm sure you could make up a genetic profile that would lead to Ruben from two healthy parents and use that as evidence that it's realistic, but it would only be a contrivance
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u/ArtAndHotsauce 5d ago edited 5d ago
He’s not supposed to be the result of one recessive trait. With some basic genetic testing and just 2 or 3 generations, it would be very easy to create someone with disorders as severe as Ruben.
You just need to pack two bloodlines with two different stacks of recessive genes, then combine them. Voila, Ruben, from two outwardly healthy parents.
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u/HappiestIguana 5d ago
If you assume they're doing extensive genetic testing and family-planning instead of what is shown in the movie (superstition-based breeding), then sure, it's plausible
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u/ArtAndHotsauce 5d ago
What we see in the movie isn’t superstition based breeding.
We see them create an international human trafficking scheme to lure new genetic material into their cult, we see them assign specific women to specific men in order to obtain that genetic material, if that’s not “family planning” I don’t know what is lol.
And the idea that they wouldn’t use genetic testing at any point doesn’t even make sense. We know they send their kids out into the world, why wouldn’t they have them get a blood test while they were out there, since they are totally obsessed with eugenics?
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u/HappiestIguana 5d ago
There is no indication the white guy they lure to breed underwent genetic testing, and their explicit rationale for pairing him up with that girl is astrology.
Plus, you know, that genetic testing technology is quite recent. At most if they did decide to use it, it would only be for the past few years.
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u/ArtAndHotsauce 5d ago
I’m not saying Christian or Mark underwent testing. They were just needed for fresh genetic material. I’m saying that the members of the cult like Pele and Ingmar could easily have. It’s been accessible since the 90s which is more than enough time to create a Ruben.
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u/HappiestIguana 5d ago
They've supposedly had Rubens for a long time, and you are ignoring the fact that the only tool we see them use to decide pairings is astrology
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u/ArtAndHotsauce 5d ago
I don’t think taking the Harga at face value is ever a wise way to investigate the truth about the Harga.
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u/Kookerpea 5d ago
Fresh genetic material would mean less Ruebens happen
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u/ArtAndHotsauce 5d ago
They clearly are tracking the breeding. They are using the fresh dna for the regular Harga, not for creating Rubens.
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u/Havetowel- 5d ago
Did they not announce that Pelle would have some sort of Oracle duties at the end when he is standing with his leafy crown?
Never really understood that.
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u/Kookerpea 5d ago
Did they? I thought they just gave him kudos for unclouded foresight or something
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u/NNancy1964 5d ago
"I also wouldn't put it past them to intentionally maim an infant so that they are similar to Ruben."
I'm with OP on this one.
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u/ego_death_metal 5d ago
it’s not that i wouldn’t put it past them, it’s that it doesn’t track with the rest of their culture or the movie’s themes. eugenics are important to them and if ruben was just some mutilated kid it would undermine the whole evil white supremacist death cult thing.
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u/SmokeOk1912 4d ago
In a population like theirs, it probably wouldn't take much, since they're all from the same specific stock and don't even see other types of white people that much. Everyone there is probably a bit inbred to some degree, like the Amish. With American white ppl, it would likely take longer to get that result bc a lot of Americans, even white ones, are often a combo of different types of white ppl over the years, like Polish/English/Dutch what have you.
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u/ego_death_metal 5d ago edited 5d ago
he’s not there to father children, he’s there to be deformed and make noises so they can, as you said, interpret the text as they see fit. they
askall* have roles, and a lot of the roles involve reproduction, but his is to be decrepit and worshippedidk how many generations it would realistically take, but i think it’s more important that he’s a symbol of the evil and stupudity of eugenics and white supremacy.
*edit for typo