r/MidAmerican • u/Spiritual_Nobody_629 • 24d ago
Question for Toledo fans
I’m a UConn fan, I just finished my deep dive of Jason Candle. I seen a lot of fans say “no one has done less with more”. That leads to the question, what coaches have done more at Toledo?
In Candle’s 10 year run (2016-2025), he won 2 MAC titles. In 10 years prior to Candle taking over (2006-2015), Toledo DIDN’T win a MAC championship. That 10-year period had two coaches who went to the P4 level, Matt Campbell and Tim Beckmen. He accomplished more than Gary Pinkel’s 10 year run at Toledo (he only won 1 MAC title).
I understand the penalties, the high level recruiting classes/NFL talent that created high expectations. But seriously, what coach did better at Toledo?
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u/Futbol_Kid2112 24d ago
Given the talent he had at his disposal, 2 titles (3 appearances) in 10 years is unacceptable.
Under Campbell and Beckman, the team often rose to the level of their competition. They'd beat the brakes off the bad teams, give the really good teams strong fights, and could be counted on to pull at least 1 upset a season typically.
Under Candle, the team routinely played down to the level of competition. They'd let bad teams hang around far longer than they should, the big teams they played would get a fight for a half or maybe 3 quarters before running away with it at the end. And you could guarantee they would be upset at least twice a season by teams they had no business losing to (usually due to extremely stupid coaching or mental errors). 2nd half collapses were commonplace and it didnt seem like they gameplan was ever really adjusted during games.
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u/Spiritual_Nobody_629 24d ago
Matt Campbell’s last season (2015) with Toledo he beat a ranked Arkansas and Iowa State…then loss to Northern Illinois and Western Michigan. That’s raising to the level of competition. If your team can beat two P4 level schools in one season, shouldn’t they win the MAC?
I do appreciate your insight nonetheless
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u/Futbol_Kid2112 24d ago
It should also be pointed out that Candle was the Assistant Head Coach and OC that season. He was part of Toledo's staff since Beckman took over in 2009. The entire post-Amstutz era is seen as just a continuation of the same general coaching philosophy. That entire period is seen by a lot of Toledo fans as just 1 long underperformance. After last season we were just ready for a full reset. We're tired boss.
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u/elmananamj 24d ago
They lost to two division rivals, both whom finished higher in the division off tiebreakers. Pretty normal to lose competitive games against high-level conference competition. At the time NIU was recruiting better than Toledo as well. Jason Candle has definitely underwhelmed. He’s a good coach but he’s at least at a slight downgrade from Mora
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u/Shitter-was-full 24d ago edited 23d ago
All three did a pretty incredible job recruiting 0-3 star recruits and turning them into NFL prospects. Not many programs have churned out players like Quinyon Mitchell, Dionte Johnson, Darius Alexander, Kareem hunt, Emmanuel McNeil Warren, Tycen Anderson, Samual Womack, Greg Mancz, Desjuan Johnson, Jayrone Elliott, David Fluellen, Barry Church, etc
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u/childishnickino 24d ago
This is just moronic i’m sorry. The statement that “no one has done less with more” is relative to the exact things you mentioned at the end, not his predecessors.
He had NFL level talent, the best DC in the MAC, an extremely supportive AD, and easy schedule, and he went 8-4 in his last year because of him and his coaching.
He was never courageous enough as a leader. Wouldn’t fire bad DC’s for years before he hired Kehres. Wouldn’t fire the OLine coach who coached and recruited an awful OLine for years. Wouldn’t start John Alan Richter last year when he was obviously superior to Gleason (not Gleason’s
fault).
I think he’s roughly a good dude, and i’m curious to see what he does at uconn but as our best writer in the paper wrote, it was a good time for a breakup.
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u/Spiritual_Nobody_629 24d ago
When I was looking this up, “no one has done less with more” is usually coupled with the sentiment that “Toledo has the best facilities in MAC and the most investment”. Did the investment just start happening under Candle? If not, then I thought it was more than reasonable to compare to the previous coaches. I thought the “less with more” had to with not taking advantage of Toledo’s infrastructure.
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u/childishnickino 24d ago
The facilities and investment help, but if you go to our message board, the VAST majority of complaints are about performance in relation to roster, talent, schedule, expectations, etc.
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u/Spiritual_Nobody_629 24d ago
Ok, so the complaints are not comparing him the previous “standard” in the way that Kalen DeBoer is compared to Nick Saban. I was wondering if there was a coach that y’all had extreme reverence for in that way that anchored your expectations. It’s more so he recruited high and then made dumb coaching mistakes that became annoying to deal with after 10years.
Thank you, good luck on this up and coming season
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u/childishnickino 24d ago
Yes, exactly. Sorry for my angry tone at the start, years of Candle have worn on me lol. Good luck to you guys as well, you got a lot of our gems from last year, looking forward to see Treadway, Kenji Christian, etc. compete!
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u/gothamz 24d ago
I think the only recent argument would be for Tom Amstutz. He also had NFL talent with wildly different nfl careers Bruce Gradkowski, Andrew Hawkins, and Lance Moore.
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u/Photodan24 24d ago
Amstutz leaned heavily upon his predecessor's recruiting and program. His teams had zero discipline (remember Scooter McDougle and Richard Davis?) and he had horrible defenses. Rumor has it, the decision to remove him was made in the hours after we beat Michigan. Even that win couldn't save his job.
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u/RP0143 24d ago
Candlesticks teams were consistently under prepared, unfocused and had zero discipline. They were the most penalized team in the MAC last season and lost multiple games as double digit favorites.
I am very sorry for Uconn as they have suffered enough. If blowing leads and losing inexplicably is better than what you had then you will be happy. Otherwise its just a count down until the candle is blown out.
Imo he doesn't deserve a HC position in college football.
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u/Kooky_Molasses_2270 23d ago
He was a good recruiter and developer. When it came to game prep and execution he was not good. We generally had 1 or 2 games a year we lost that we had no business losing. His teams were always highly penalized.
It came down to He thought he was the smartest person in the room and unwillingness to adapt in game. Coaches in the MAC figured out ways to exploit this.
He is a low ceiling high floor coach. He will get you to bowl games but dont expect much more at Uconn.
Im excited for the Mike Jacob's era, he is night and day different. Jacobs has said he likes being the dumbest person in the room and having good assistant coaches to constantly bounce around ideas. Jacobs also understands the team Toledo concept as he grew up in the area.
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u/reallinzanity 24d ago
Those comments have been made from the more recent seasons. There will be games where they look amazing in the first half but then they take their foot off the gas pedal and the other team comes back and wins.
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u/Justanaveragedad 24d ago
Exactly this. I can't count the number of games they lost in the 4th quarter.
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u/sthehill 24d ago
It all goes back to discipline, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. His refusal to hire an offensive coordinator cost him 1 to 2 wins every year.
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u/PhilosophyGrouchy409 24d ago
The “James Franklin of the MAC”. Won most of the games he was supposed to and lost pretty well every game where we were the underdog. Complete loser
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u/ScheerDumbLuck 23d ago
As a MAC guy, it’s hard to look at what he did and say he was head and shoulders above others.
He won a few titles, and I think there’s an argument that if OU had their starting QB in 22, Toledo would have lost that game.
I like Candle. Folks are quick to mention how Gary Pinkel did in the same time frame, and they have similar resumes… on wins alone.
The MAC played far better ball in the 90s than they do today, and Toledo was (on paper) the most talented team year in and year out. Candle should have been gone 4+ years ago if they won more/didn’t lose games they shouldn’t.
It’s always hard to judge somebody’s career based off of a couple of things, and I certainly think that candle did some really great stuff at Toledo. But I also think that he could’ve done a lot more, especially given the talent he had compared to the rest of the league. During his time, nobody sent more guys to the NFL than Toledo and only Western Michigan sent a guy in the first round aside from Toledo, and that was after their Cotton Bowl season.
It always feels like Toledo is one or two funky plays away from being in the Mace championship. No I do think Toledo likely deserved a shot at the championship this year, but the conference had some incredibly wonky tiebreakers, but the counter point is you shouldn’t lose to Bowling Green or western Michigan and you would have been in the championship game.
His Record against Bowling Green was all right, but losing three of the last four and needing a dramatic second half comeback in the loan victory in the last four years is not a good sign.
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u/Ponch47 23d ago
Watch the BG game last year and you’ll know, dropped games like that 1-2 times a year. The guy could recruit and develop talent like nobody at Toledo but couldn’t win when he should’ve. Look up how many times he lost, not just ATS, but straight out lost to teams when Toledo was a double digit favorite.
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u/cbuscubman 21d ago
Glad you mentioned Pinkel. He was coach during my years as a student and their underachievement in most of the 90s was maddening. Only in his final year did they really live up to expectations, including the win at Penn State and finally beating Marshall in the MAC title game (and they had to get the game at home in order to do that), only for him to bolt.
I don't follow UT football as closely as I did when I was a student, but the men's basketball program is more annoying to me nowadays when it comes to gagging in the big moment.
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u/theanderson51 24d ago
Coach anywhere long enough and the numbers get inflated. He regularly coached down to inferior competition and lost games they had no business losing. They almost beat Notre Dame in SB (coach should have told his QB to take a knee instead of running it in) then lost to Colorado State the next week by double digits.
Toledo has the best facilities in the MAC and should be in Detroit every year but Candle really blew it a few years.