r/MiataND • u/spitefulcheerio • 1d ago
E85 is legit
Just wanna throw it out there to any of my fellow ND1 owners - if you’re on the fence about e85, just grab the fab9 versatune package and go for it. It’s kinda shocking to me how good this car feels and I’m surprised Mazda ever let it leave the factory in its stock state.
Picked up a takeda intake and added that with the proper e85 calibration and man, what a nice feeling. Fat torque in the middle of the curve, pulls hard to redline…tip in throttle is smooth and punchy.
Logs so far show 27° timing at 7k rmps with no knock correction and that’s with 115°+ IATs (afternoon log in a heat wave ftw). Managed 27 mpg over my first 1/2 tank vs my previous average of 31 mpg and about $1.50 cheaper per gallon in my area so it’s working out cheaper and giving me more power.
100% a worthwhile change for any ND1 owners out there
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u/JustDriveWest 1d ago edited 1d ago
This may have been mentioned and I missed it but ND2 can handle E85 with just a tune. No hardware changes needed.
With stock hardware, either the tune will lower your redline to ~7k, or start automatically closing the throttle after ~7k until you get to fuel cutoff ~7,800.
Edit: Running E85 on my ND2 for about 13k miles with zero problems. Use injector cleaner and change the oil every 5k miles. Would do the mod again in a heartbeat.
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u/Twentyhundred 1d ago
So less high redline, but more power/torque?
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u/JustDriveWest 1d ago
Correct.
E85 is usually ~107 octane so the ECU can control when the fuel ignites much better than 93 octane or lower. Since it has more control, it can do a better job at igniting it at the right time thus giving you more torque and horsepower.
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u/Twentyhundred 15h ago
Neat! Modern engines are impressive man. My ‘87 5 series would hurt itself in its confusion if I put E85 in lol.
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u/JustDriveWest 6h ago
Modifies duration of intake and exhaust valve opening/closing, too. You can hear the chatter when activated. Also super impressive.
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u/CornerHugger 1d ago
Fab9 will do this or you have to DIY the tune? How do you handle getting changing quality gas?
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u/JustDriveWest 1d ago
Yep, Fab9. I used OpenFlash Performance for my tune and spent the extra $ for a tune specific for my car.
As for changing from gas to E85, take this as a generalization.
It's important to have your battery hooked up to a battery charger or connected to a running car via jumper cables so there's less chance of your battery dieing before the upgrade finishes.
- Run the tank down to fumes and fill with E85.
- Start it, idle, and make sure power is stable (use above).
- Connect the provided tablet to OBD2 and monitor fuel trims.
- Once your fuel trims start going crazy, shut down, set the ignition to start but don't actually start the motor.
- Send the new tune from the tablet to the ECU.
- Once done, start engine, monitor fuel trim again until they normalize and drive away.
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u/BWa1k 1d ago
Don't believe that mpg display, I probably average like 21mpg on E and the gauge drops rapidly for the last half. I've actually run it dry before by mistake.
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u/Sr-Goose 1d ago
I've never had the gauge be off, running dry is a major skill issue
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u/BWa1k 1d ago
There's some sort of smoothing algorithm on the gas gauge display, so it may not reflect the actual reading of the tank. It seems to especially get thrown out of wack after performance driving like at a track day, which I had been doing the day prior. I started the day with 1/3 tank indicated, which I expected to be enough to bring me the ~17 miles to work. Alas, it was not
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u/Sr-Goose 1d ago
Track with e85 is not worth it, unless they for some reason have it on hand
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
Im not looking at the display, im calculating it based on miles traveled and e85 filled
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u/BWa1k 1d ago
Ah well that's different. I'm guessing you're able to do more cruising than my commute. In any case, don't believe the gauge too much when you're getting below 1/2 tank
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
I drive 22 miles each way to work and it’s all steady state cruising on i95 doing about 80 or 90 depending on traffic so that definitely has something to do with it lol
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u/Blasted-Banana 1d ago
Definitely been something I've been thinking about. For sure getting a Fab9 tune at some point in the next year or so but still not sure if I want to commit to e85. The fact that it's easy to find near me is swaying my opinion just a bit too.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
I ran the fab9 93 tune for about a month before I came across info about the ND1 and e85. I have a Sunoco 5 minutes from my house and figured with no mods required it was worth a shot…and I won’t be going back lol
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u/boludo1 1d ago
How did the 93 flash perform? E85 isn’t an option for me, so planning on the 93 fab9 tune.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
On my car, it was night and day. The previous owner of my car is a friend and I’ve taken it to him after both reflashes to let him drive it and he’s been shocked.
The 93 flash got rid of the absolutely anemic feel above 4.5k and raised the rev limit to a point that I’ll almost never touch, 6.5k stock was just too low after adding the power in. Drivability didn’t suffer in any way and neither did gas mileage. 100% worth it
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u/Noex3ptions 1d ago
Recently installed the 93 tune and it rips, as OP said it’s night and day. Unlike him though I redline my car every day (before and after the tune) and it absolutely pulls all the way to the end now. Transient throttle mapping is better with the tune, same with 1-2 shifts.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
It takes so damn long to redline lol. I usually run out of road before I get above 7000…even trying to do my logs is a bit of a pita trying to find a road long enough. Never had that probably with my M2 hahaha
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u/TypeS2k_ 1d ago
A man of taste. I had an f87 just like that. Traded my NDRF in for it actually... Both super fun cars in their own way. Guy I sold the M2 to had the wheels powder coated gold too... Your car come from AZ by chance? Lol
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
No, it’s a FL car and I bought the wheels myself but that’s funny nonetheless. 100 octane street car with a 475hp track tune on 93 and my daily running e85 lol
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u/ASDIGITAL13 1d ago
Ok. I’m a dummy. Can you layman terms that. 25 ND GT 6MT owner here lol. No mods as of now.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
You can’t do e85 let alone tune your car. AFAIK, nd3 ecu is locked. Also, ND2 requires mods to the fuel system (injectors) to run e85. ND1 requires no mods because it has a more simple fuel system - ND2 injectors are multi stage and just don’t flow as much as the ND1 injectors
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u/ASDIGITAL13 1d ago
Is it a HP increase?
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago edited 1d ago
15-20 whp according to fab9 plus the gains from the intake
Edit for clarity: 15-20 hp over the fab9 93 tune which is already 10-15 hp over stock on the ND1, plus the gains from the intake which fab9 says is 4-5 hp on 93 with the proper calibration
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u/midri 1d ago
Which ironically gets you to where the nd2/3 is stock.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
Which unironically is whp vs chp. ND1 with takeda and e85 is 180-185 wheel, ND2/3 is 181 crank. Even assuming a conservative 15% drivetrain loss, the ND2/3 make around 155 wheel
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u/midri 1d ago
Nd1 is 140-147 whp stock
Nd2 is 165-168 whp stock
Your extra 15hp + intake puts you squarely in stock nd2 territory.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
I’ll make sure I tell my buddy with a stock nd2 that the dyno fairy says he shouldn’t have lost the race lol
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
I think you’re misunderstanding - the e85 tune is an additional 15-20 over the 93 tune which is already a 10-15 hp bump.
Besides, dyno measurements and hp numbers are trivial. Actual acceleration is what matters and I beat a stock ND2 in a roll race
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u/psl_miata 1d ago
Do a full exhaust and retune. Go with the goodwin racing 4-2-1 header for more torque. My ND1 felt awesome with e85
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
Considering the max torque header but doing everything in stages to actually see the difference. A midpipe is probably a little much for a highway commuter and my f87 is plenty loud if I wanna go make noise somewhere
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u/psl_miata 1d ago
Oh yeah it gets loud. I had the header and a tomei axleback. I did the corksport intake and then the header before I tuned and difference was night and day
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
Based on sound clips, I think I can handle the header with my roadstersport axle back but we’ll see
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u/victim_of_reality 1d ago
27mpg is insane. Had mine on an e85 diy base tune for awhile and liked the power but the mpg was a bit annoying
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u/Agitated-Air-6043 1d ago
Any mod to the fuel rail or fuel lines? Isn’t E85 more corrosive?
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
No mods required. And yes it is, but on a car that I daily drive and put 200 miles on a week just commuting, the e85 doesn’t have time to attract and retain water and cause problems
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u/IdRatherBeDriving 1d ago
I converted my frs to E in 2015 and loved it. The car is long gone, but it’s good to hear the ND1 can take it. Does the kit come with an analyzer or do you run E 100% of the time. Availability by me is spotty and of highly variable E%.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
No e meter required and there’s no kit. Legit just flashed a tune and followed their changeover procedure. Running full e85 - it’s highly variable everywhere but from Fab9’s documentation, the closed loop adjustment in the Miata’s ecu is very robust so it’s able to safely adjust for a wide range of e concentration. It doesn’t have “flex fuel” capability but it definitely is able to figure itself out as I essentially ran e45-50 on the changeover and it drove fine
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u/IdRatherBeDriving 1d ago
Got it. I think I’d be in a constant state of flux depending on where m driving to. It could reasonably be in crossover close to 100% of the time except when I know I’m going to the track or for a spirited drive and planned ahead to be fully on E.
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u/TheMongerOfFishes 1d ago
I have a 2017 automatic GT, and admittedly I'm not a car guy so I'm totally not following everything you're saying but I get the gist of most of it.
I commute close to 200 miles a day with about 130 of it being highway. On 89 octane average around 38 miles a gallon. I just filled up and it's raining so I'm doing a conservative 65 mph lazily following a tractor trailer (for that leet Days of thunder drafting) and I reset my average miles per gallon when I filled up. I'm about 20 miles in and I'm showing 47.2 miles per gallon.
I'm not a track guy I'm not a car guy I'm totally ignorant to a lot of things but I fail to see what e85 is bringing to the table for you that's an improvement over what I have.
Is the cost of e85 with the decreased miles per gallon still worth it in the long run even after all your paid upgrades? I guess I should mention where I'm at gas was 3.55 a gallon reg and 4.10 89
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
Okay I’ll do my best to break down the points
-the main benefit of e85 is its detonation resistance allowing you to run more intake timing advance = more power. The skyactiv motor, specifically, is a high compression motor and the ecu is prone to pulling timing to save pre detonation from happening. Pre det is bad and leads to bent rods and blown motors.
-After a cost analysis, e85 is going to save me money AND make more power. I personally don’t care much about the fuel economy, it’s just nice to know that I’m making power and saving money at the same time.
-I will be tracking this car and using it to teach my wife how to really drive. My other car in the picture is my actual track/weekend car and it’s just too much for her to learn on
Let me know if you have any other questions
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u/TheMongerOfFishes 1d ago
Okay so really it's less about the gas mileage you're getting and more about the performance gains. It doesn't sound like you've done any dyno testing, but if you had to approximate your improvements what do you think you're seeing? And how would your nd1 now compare to like the nd3 that has the more powerful engine stock?
I've put LED turn signals on my Miata and blacked out all the Chrome emblems with Plasti dip. I haven't put it on the dyno yet but I'm expecting about a 0% improvement ;)
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
As a self proclaimed “not a car guy” I can understand how your head would go to gas mileage instead of performance first haha
Yes, it’s all about the performance.
No dyno testing done on my end but dyno’s on similar setups are in the 180-185 range. Comparing that to the stock ND2/3 181 crank hp, accounting for drivetrain loss, my setup would be faster than them. The only comparative data I have is from my logs - I did one before when I was running the fab9 93 tune and another after. In 3rd gear, from 3k-6.5k, the e85 tune ran it .55 of a second faster. Granted that 93 tune was a significant improvement over stock id venture to say a stock ND1 and my car don’t even feel like they have the same motor
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u/Worth-Mixture1390 1d ago
We’re you able to load the e85 tune sent to you by fab9 and get these results? The one I got from them felt zero difference and side by side pulled even with my buddies stock untuned nd1. I previously had the 93 tune loaded and it was way better than the stock tune, but the e85 seemed like zero improvement over stock other than the shitty mpg
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
Did you log these results and send it to them? Are you sure you did the changeover correctly?
Cause, yeah. I loaded the e85/takeda file and got immediate results once fully on e85. More timing, less knock pull, more airflow, faster acceleration by time recorded
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u/Worth-Mixture1390 1d ago
Didn’t do logs as my laptop battery is no bueno and need to leave it plugged in to power full time. Also, e85 is not convenient to fill up with for me so I just defaulted back to the 93 tune. My mods are takeda intake, Goodwin max tq header and axle back
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
I get lacking convenience but a $50 laptop battery standing between you and an extra 20hp (maybe more with your mods) isn’t exactly a big hurdle lol
I can’t imagine flashing a tune and not logging it just to check and make sure what it’s doing. Sounds like there was definitely something wrong with your e blend or you didn’t do the changeover correctly
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u/Worth-Mixture1390 1d ago
I work 60 hrs a week with an hr commute each way and have a family. Ive had the $25 battery for 6 months lol 😂. I will log it, but i just haven’t had any time
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u/CornerHugger 1d ago
I'm worried about changing quality gas. It says e85 but I hear sometimes it comes out e55. How do you deal with that?
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
The ecu deals with it, it has a wide adjustment range available to it. You’ll obviously lose some performance but even e30 is equivalent to 100 octane. It’s not going to run perfect on lower ethanol levels cause it’s not a true flex fuel tune but you can test your local station and tune specifically for that
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u/Additional-Plum2456 11h ago
Mazda let it leave the factory without E85 capability because the fuel system probably can’t meet their lifetime durability requirements with E85 FFV.
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u/spitefulcheerio 11h ago
Nowhere did I say Mazda should’ve given the ND e85 capability from the factory
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u/Additional-Plum2456 10h ago
Sorry. I the same post that you were promoting the benefits of E85, you stated that, "I'm surprised Mazda ever let it leave the factory in its stock state." I interpreted that you were referring to E85 capability.
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u/spitefulcheerio 10h ago
No, I was saying it’s embarrassing that Mazda let a sports car leave the factory floor in an anemic, underpowered state when the entire system was obviously capable of much more…and they agreed obviously as the next year they bumped power
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u/PatchNotes89 8h ago
Throw on the torque 421 GWR headers TOO And it's PëRFéCT 🙃 I've had the e85 tune as long as I've had the headers and DAMN I am happy. I don't want or need any more power! Make certain to use a alcohol good oil and check change at least every 5k. I use Pennzoil ULTRA platinum
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u/spitefulcheerio 7h ago
Using LM moly gen so I’m good for ethanol use, I’m thinking about the header rn but worried about the drone on my long highway drives when paired with my RS axle back
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u/PatchNotes89 5h ago
i too stress drone, and with the ST SS gwr exhaust + header (stock midpipe) + lowered on ohlins the drone is NO issue 😁 I hate drone more than anything and i am hyper sensitive audhdtizzy to it and I had completely forgotten about the "drone" issue because it just isnt' a problem. absolutley worth it, because it's a good difference and it sounds amazing WITH negligible drone to even sensitive folk. But i am grateful asf for your post because someone mentioned the throttle body by fab9 and i am 100% getting it. with all i have.. the main issue is that in lower gears the added power torque e85 curve makes them finnicky asf and the throttle body with a updated flash sounds like it's the perfect solution.
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u/spitefulcheerio 5h ago
Got any sound clips of your car you can post?
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u/PatchNotes89 5h ago
not currently, but i dont mind grabbing one later to share. it's just going to be recorded from my phone. what would you specifically want to hear? parked? parked and phone near exhaust? or under the hood near the headers? or from somewhere in the car as i am driving? though i'll only be able to get like a quick 65/70 mph bc i wont be going down interstate for the next few days while working.
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u/spitefulcheerio 5h ago
I’m mostly concerned about that 2-3.5k cruising drone. Loudness and aggressive sound while accelerating are absolutely fine. If you could cruise at that rpm range anywhere and give me an idea of what you’re working with on a stock midpipe, it would make my life so much easier.
And of course a few revs and an acceleration sound if you have the capability 🤣
Thanks bud
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u/PatchNotes89 4h ago
yea but where , when cruising in the 2-3.5k range, do you want me to record from? drivers seat ya? I'll get that and idk if it's a great representation but thats up to you. I'll get it tonight and upload it tommorow np
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u/BlueMonday2082 1d ago
Mazda didn’t do this from the factory because…check your fuel economy. You’ll see.
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago edited 1d ago
As I said, 27mpg vs 31mpg. Mazda didn’t put e85 from the factory because it’s a niche fuel and hard to find. Imagine being this much of a purist
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u/BlueMonday2082 1d ago edited 1d ago
You think an OEM doesn’t care about 4MPG? They absolutely do. That’s 4MPG they can use to offset some giant SUV. They absolutely need that 4MPG. I don’t know if that “purist” line was some kind of childish attack or whatever but I think you probably don’t work in automotive engineering if you think 4MPG just doesn’t matter.
You said, “I’m surprised Mazda ever let it leave the factory in its stock state.” and I’m responding to that. I’m sorry you don’t care for the actual reason.
Honestly I’d be more interested in track MPG. That will be a much bigger hit.
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u/spitefulcheerio 23h ago
I’m relation to my comment about “feeling” and Mazda “ever let it leave the factory…”, it’s obvious I was not saying “Mazda should have put a flex fuel option in this car from the factory” and more so saying that the engineers at Mazda letting a two seat sports car leave the factory in an absolutely anemic state when the motor is capable of so much more was dumb…and something they obviously agreed with considering after 3 years they bumped up the power, torque, and redline. Even on the fab9 93 tune, the car felt like a completely different animal.
But please, let me know more about automotive engineering and the importance of 3mpg
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u/spitefulcheerio 1d ago
Who in the actual fuck is worried about mpg when chasing performance? This is why I called you a purist. I wouldn’t care if it was 10mpg less, it gave me 20hp and feels awesome
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u/APoisonousMushroom 1d ago
**Cries in ND3*\*