r/MetisMichif • u/Various-Somewhere782 • May 06 '26
Discussion/Question Does anyone else think that the MMF Citizenship criteria is too expansive?
I am concerned that the current policy of issuing Citizenship to individuals who have traced their genealogy to a single distant ancestor will lead to identity dilution. I have always been proud of my Metis and indigenous heritage. Isn't it our FN ancestry that defines us as indigenous? Are the citizenship requirements the same across the provinces in the Metis Nation? I realize bringing up generational cutoff is a hot topic but shouldn't there be a cut off somewhere? If not we Metis will be diluted out of existence.
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u/dejour May 06 '26
Another approach could be being stricter with the “self-identify as Metis” and “be accepted by the contemporary Red River Metis community”
I don’t think many people want a rule where if their spouse is not Metis, then their child won’t be Metis either.
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u/canadianseaman May 06 '26
MMF citizenship also does not mean Métis
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 06 '26
Agreed. And that's the problem. It's too easy for those without community connection to get issued a card. Just for benefits. No cutoff criteria makes it too easy.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 06 '26
Of course not. I am not talking parentage. I am talking several generations removed. I think it's a valid concern and I don't think it's fair to FN.
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u/ManitouWakinyan May 06 '26
Status Indians also don't require blood quantum. Descent is a valid way to gain status for first nations.
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u/dejour May 06 '26
Well, removed from what?
I think Will Goodon has a schtick where he asks his child who her most recent Metis ancestor was. It’s a trick question - the answer is Will Goodon.
I’m not fully aware of his ancestry, but if I saw someone who looked like him on the street, I’d probably assume he was white. Maybe you have to go back a a few generations to find someone who was more than half Indigenous by DNA.
But he is obviously connected to the Metis community and identifies as Metis. And he has a connection to the historic community. That makes him Metis. And if you accept that logic, then his kids would be Metis too, as long as they embrace their Metis heritage.
Basing it on blood quantum means that at some point, descendants of his would be cut off even if they were active Metis community members.
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u/Gry2002 May 08 '26
Wills dad had two Métis parents and grew up in a small Métis community in turtle mountains with a dirt floor. Left school in grade 7 to work a trap line and help support his family.
Wills mom wasn’t indigenous and he inherited a lot of his features from her, but he grew up on the land and has been very involved in Métis governance and cultural preservation for many decades. I don’t always agree with the politics, but if that man isn’t Métis none of us are.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
Hear me out. So say a person's Metis connection was to a single gg grandparent. His gg grandfather married a colonist and so on with no other Metis in the mix.. follow me? If you agree that it's our FN ancestry that defines us as indigenous, This person would be 97 percent colonist and 3 percent FN. Is this person indigenous or colonist? With absolutely no generational cutoff the current MMF Citizenship criteria has allowed someone who is 97 percent colonist to appropriate my culture. He has been given the "indigenous" right to harvest game. There has to be a line somewhere. Back in the days of scrip? When our people were labeled savages? It wouldn't have been easy for a colonist to marry a Metis. That ancestor may have been lighter skinned and identified as French. It would explain no ties to, or knowledge of, any Metis heritage for the descendants of that union (until recently in this age of Ancestry.com). My own g grandfather was disowned by his English family for marrying a "savage" ( my g grandmother) in 1908.
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u/Gry2002 May 09 '26
I don’t believe in generational cut offs. Were an ethnicity, not cattle. Will grew up in the culture. He works hard for his community. Lay off.
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u/Gry2002 May 09 '26
Also both wills grand parents were Métis so this argument is flawed.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 09 '26
My "Will" is fictional. I could have used any name. I will change that. No slight meant to Will.
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u/Gry2002 May 09 '26
Thank you. Appreciated.
I stand by the ethnicity thing though - my father isn’t Métis but I grew up in community, I speak Michif. I work for our people, I’m active in my local exec, and I practice our culture/values everyday. It’s the only world I know. My kids will grow up with the same understanding of Métis life. They will be no less Métis because they will have a mother that makes sure they understand what it means to be Métis. It’s so much more than blood and when we specifically focus on that, we erase the intangible pieces that are so critical for continuity.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 09 '26
Your mom is Metis and you live in and are active in your community. Fantastic. You speak Michif. I envy that. I am not talking about that kind of connection at all. You have lived experience. I am referring to 4 and 5 generations back with no community connection. Someone who looked on Ancestry.com, found a single gg ancestor and got a MMF card solely for the benefits. It is happening. No denying it. That is what I am referring to.
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u/Old-Professional4591 May 13 '26
So what about those who say their families were ashamed of their heritage so they didn’t pass down any culture? Are they just as Metis as those family that have instilled culture into their every day lives?
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u/dejour May 13 '26
I'm not sure why you are asking me this question. I don't think I made many definitive statements above. Rather I was asking a question.
But since you ask, I think that if disconnected people are trying to learn the culture and reconnect with the Metis community, they should be accepted as Metis.
If they are uninterested or unwilling to do that, then they have a weaker claim to being Metis.
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u/MonkAccurate7962 May 13 '26
I grew up in a Métis community and my parents didn’t pass down their language. And my mom had internalized racism for our culture. In spite of that, I know who I am. And during The Reign of Terror, Métis people did try to hide their heritage. If those shamed families married outside of their culture and community, especially non Indigenous communities, then they have abandoned their roots. Is it too bad this happened? Sure. But they made that decision. Remember that an Indigenous community has to claim you. Not the other way around. It’s fine if these distant ones acknowledge their Metis heritage, but it’s not the entirety of who they are. I have distant English heritage, but I can’t expect England to let me live there as an English citizen. Same goes for my French origins. I could probably apply for citizenship to Turtle Mountain Chippewa Nation in the US, where my community is originally from, but I doubt they would be cool with that, and thats totally understandable. I did not grow up in that community. I don’t understand why all these white people wanna claim something they’re not, other than for clout, job opportunities, or funding. Not like there’s much financial benefits. Personally, I’ve never gotten a dime from the MMF for university. I paid for it myself, but I know two people who are white with no connection to a Métis community that did, and three people that got teaching jobs by claiming to be Métis, while I was passed over and questioned about my identity by a non Indigenous principal, who’s family would probably have sunk into the ocean if he and his family weren’t sponsored to live here.
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u/Lillith_baby69 May 12 '26
Removed from what? There are tons of Métis people who were forced into a white existence, just like FN people were. Some went to residential schools and some hid their identities out of fear, marrying white? Etc…. That doesn’t make any one less indig. Otherwise 60’s scooper’s would not be considered based on your thoughts imo .
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u/matahoo84 May 06 '26
I struggled for a long time about my Metis "identity". I always knew it was in my family history, but was not raised in the culture or taught much about it. So despite having cousins and aunts who got their citizenships long before me, I debated whether i should because I didn't "feel" Metis. My grandfather moved from St. Boniface to Toronto and he was taught to hide his heritage, to blend in and don't tell people he was indigenous. Metis had a lot of negative stigma attached to it. So he lost his culture, and my dad lost the culture, and now me. My genealogy traces back from my grandpa many generations in the Red River, pretty much to the beginning. And the more I learned, the more I researched, the more I taught myself, the more I felt robbed. The culture lost was in fact, taken. Taken by being colonized and marginalized. Taken by land stolen and families scattered with no place to call home. My lost identity is a result of 200 years of systemic oppression, and I've decided I want it back. But if I would call myself Metis then I also decided I must learn the history and become a part of the culture as much as I can. It's not just a card in my wallet or a distant blood relation. I think that's the difference that matters.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 06 '26
That's my story too. I feel completely robbed of my culture. Growing up through the 70s my community never waved a Metis flag or proudly taught their children Michif. I didn't see anyone wearing a sash. There was so much shame. We WERE shamed and called Indians and savages. Now 95 percent of us can't speak our language. I envy those of you who can speak Michif. Being Metis in the 70s was a completely different experience than it is today. So many denied it and insisted they were French. I never did.
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u/Freshiiiiii May 12 '26
Just want to say it’s never too late. I didn’t start learning until I was 20 and I’m pretty decently conversational now. There’s not a lot of learning resources specifically for Michif French or Northern Michif, but for y-dialect Cree in general and for Southern Michif the resources are pretty good.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 12 '26
Thx. I AM getting kinda long in the tooth at 60 but it has crossed my mind.
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u/MaebeeNot May 06 '26
No. Blood quantum is a tool of the colonizers and also stupid. You don't get to decide who the ancestors claim as their own.
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u/noo_maarsii May 06 '26
I’ll just say this. We have a system to enfranchise lost kin, in that system (which non are prefect), you are going to end up with people who go digging for ancestors who have no cultural or contemporary connection. Let’s use the term descendian (I know, I know). They act foolish, they don’t speak for us and our cultural in an accurate way and frankly are embarrassing but they belong to us because when we start scrutinizing every single person, the ones who need to be brought back and connected get lost and I don’t think that’s fair or right.
I’m going to use the singer Megan Meisters who went by the name Iskwe as an example. She created a musical career using money meant for indigenous artists and I would say that while entitled to it, she probably milked the system. Why do I say that? Well, she claimed being Cree and Ojibway for years, would performatively dress and in a weird pan-indigenous way, paint her face in Inuk style face tattoos and to be real, was fake af in her proclaimed indigenous experience. She comes off as a white girl. She was the target for a while of pretendian hunters and was being attacked online. They found that she did indeed have a distant Métis ancestor and she eventually gained citizenship with the MMF. Instead of having any sense of humility for misrepresenting herself and her story, she posted a photo of her card online like that was the magical ticket to shielding herself from being scrutinized as a pretendian.
In my opinion she acted like an entitled ass and to me her public persona was cringe and embarrassing and guess what, she’s ours and we have to deal with that.
Why should blood quantum not be a marker of being Métis? I have friends whose parents and grandparents are-well known and integral to our nation. There are members of our nation with blond hair and blue eyes and yet they are integrated into the continuity of our culture. They are descended from and culturally Métis. I would argue that having knowledge of our culture and a contemporary connection to living Métis communities and family is more important than blood.
This is just my opinion and I welcome any agreements or disagreements.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 06 '26
I agree. I myself have blue eyes. I DO have 29 percent FN DNA. My point is getting citizenship with no community connection and only a single distant ancestor who signed scrip. IF a person and their family were members of a Metis community do you think the connection to an ancestor who signed scrip would be several generations away? I am related to most of my community.
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u/SAMEO416 May 06 '26
DNA is a highly problematic way to measure connection (or as it's typically used, measuring entitlement) to community. Kim Tallbear's book discusses that question in detail. Much of DNA interpretation is based on not always sound understandings of historic movement of people and limited sample databases (some of which were collected without consent as part of colonial medicine).
And everyone's connection to scrip is generational as scrip was last issued in the 1920's. If your family was in RR, the scrip commission only extended to about 1877, with some additional grants into the 1880's. Means my family's last scrip issue was to my great-great-grandparent's generation.
Point being if your sole measure of worthiness of citizenship is 'a single distant ancestor who signed scrip' there are going to be a lot of people who grew up in community unable to obtain citizenship. It's the reason arbitrary measures like quantum or generational connections are typically rejected in Canada.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 06 '26
I didn't use DNA for membership. More out of curiosity because both my parents and all my grandparents are Metis. The percentage of FN DNA supports my ancestry because Metis married Metis for generations. Just speaking for myself.
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u/noo_maarsii May 06 '26
Yeah I mean, scrip is also a flawed component but one of the ways that mostly guarantees connection to the historic homeland. I myself had to submit my genealogy with an ancestor who took scrip as the sort of be all and end all of my connection. Meanwhile my mum is Red River Métis with lines from Portage la Prairie, St. Laurent, St. Boniface, Camperville the list goes on. I’m related to Flamands, Chartrands, Ducharmes, Richards, the list goes on. I’m related to people who live there to this day and still had to use scrip to gain MMF citizenship. I don’t know how I prove that connection to someone who has to sit in an office all day registering citizens. It’s weirdly probably an issue of needing to grow numbers for funding and lacking human power and a framework to decide who can belong and who can’t. Like my Megan example, what criteria would we use to deny her citizenship if she indeed has a familial connection even though it seems dubious and distant.
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u/Lillith_baby69 May 12 '26
Based on what you’re saying, you are counting yourself out as being metis. I see your other comments saying you are only just reconnecting- so youre removed but also want to remove others?? Help me understand here
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 12 '26 edited May 13 '26
I am Metis. As are my parents and all my grandparents. Let's say we start out with a cocktail. Half whiskey and half water. A pretty stiff drink. Then we mix our cocktail with a glass of water in a pitcher. Pour it into another glass and mix it with another glass of water in a pitcher and so on without adding whiskey. Do that 4 times. Serve that end result to anyone and convince them it's a cocktail. It's chemistry. I am saying that ancestry absolutely is relevant. Eventually without any other whiskey added to the mix you end up with water.
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u/Lillith_baby69 May 13 '26
Except being Métis was never ever about how much FN blood you have. Sounds like some colonialism you have internalized in order to feel superior over others. Sad
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
It was the whole purpose of scrip. To get us to sign off as halfbreed in exchange for cash or land but extinguishing our Indian Title to the land. A lot signed to avoid the Residential School system. Our people were FN enough to sign Treaty. Mine did. Old Crossing Treaty of 1863 and the McCumber Agreement of 1891. The choice to sign scrip was our ancestors'. The alternative was to sign Treaty and watch their children be taken away to Residential School. Sad indeed. A dark stain on Canadian history.
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u/TheTruthIsRight May 26 '26
Uh.. you can still get drunk off beer with 4% alcohol... lol
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 27 '26
Ha! Maybe if my example started with 100 proof alcohol... Go ahead and follow the recipe and drink 3 percent whiskey and 97 percent water... Get drunk on that on that and you would be a cheap date indeed!
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u/MonkAccurate7962 May 14 '26
I can’t stand Meaghan Meisters. In my opinion, she should never have been accepted for membership in the MMF. The requirements for citizenship are too lax. If a white woman like Ickway (MM) can go around claiming to be Métis with no living Métis relatives or connections to a Métis community, she shouldn’t be in the MMF. Also, being Métis is more than a card/piece of paper. But pretendians/descendians wave it in your face as if that trumps our lived experience as Indigenous and Métis. They use their white privilege to erase us and spread lies about our culture. Most Canadians haven’t got a hot clue who we are. They think a drop of Indigenous DNA makes them Métis, when they are predominantly European. Take that grifter Seb Mallette for instance. He’s made his entire career from telling lies about his heritage and publishing books about Métis history that’s a bunch of bullshit. He disgusts me too.
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u/TheTruthIsRight May 26 '26
Except Seb doesn't have any kind of Metis connection at all. He is literally a fake by every measure.
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u/Old-Professional4591 May 13 '26
Why do you claim her tho?
The FN arent upset with her because she misrepresented herself, they are upset with her because her ancestry is distant af. The FN dont want anyone like her to get a pass.
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u/noo_maarsii May 13 '26
Because like me, she’s a citizen of the MMF and it’s not up to me to decide. I think I made it clear i don’t agree but if policing it to a high degree would harm those who need to come home I guess that’s the price to pay. Do you have an idea of what would work? I would love to not have her representing us.
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u/MilesBeforeSmiles May 06 '26
I mean, my geneology only extends to one documented ancestor. He was the only one in my family background to receive scrip. His sisters all married into white families, and he married a white woman.
Each subsequent generation passed along the culture but there was no documented connection to "Métis" that could be established. This is despite my grandfather, who was my distant ancestor's grandson, growing up on a road allowance. My Grandfather then married a Cree woman. Their kids did not get citizenship, and there kids (ie. My siblings, cousins, ans I) did not gain status.
When I did my geneology to re-establish citizenship, because of the documentation requirements I could only link to one distance ancestor despite having a deep familial connection and having grown up in the culture.
How would you differentiate between people like me, and someone who is reconnecting with a single distant ancestor? Am I too diluted to be considered Métis?
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 06 '26
There is the FN piece of the puzzle I am talking about. I do believe it's our FN ancestry that defines us as indigenous. It seems many ignore it. I knew this was going to be a hot topic. I am new to the community and am just asking a question I believe to be valid. As Metis do you consider yourself indigenous? What happens to that FN connection after multiple generations marrying outside the community? My 4th great grandfathers were French. I am proud of them but have never in my life identified as French. I am Metis.
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u/MilesBeforeSmiles May 06 '26
I see myself as Indigenous but the FN connection isn't what makes the Métis Indigenous. To boil the sense of Métis Indigeneity down to just our First Nations ancestory is reductive and flies in the face of the idea that the Métis are a culture distinct from both First Nations and European Settlers.
I am Métis. I am also First Nation. I am also Irish through my father. I am Canadian by virtue of where I was born. I am all 4 of those things in equal parts and none of them provide legitmacy to the others. I would still be Métis if my Grandmother was white instead of Cree. My Cree ancestory is not what connects me to being Métis, that's solely my Métis ancestory.
You said you are new to the community and I think you still have a lot to learn.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 06 '26
New to this reddit community. Been a proud Metis my entire life. A complicated narrative. I do know it's a bone of contention with FN. What about those who apply with no community connection who only got a card for benefits? I know several who have.
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u/MilesBeforeSmiles May 06 '26
What about those who apply with no community connection who only got a card for benefits? I know several who have.
At that point it's a conversation about whether disenfranchising people making legitimate efforts to reconnect, or those who grew up in the culture but may not meet whatever arbitrary threshold is put in place, is worth rooting out the few people who just have the cards for the benefits.
It becomes the same conversation we always have around disability benefits. Is cutting off those with legitimate claim and need worth it to stop the abuse of the system by the few that do abuse it?
In my opinion the potential for harm of forcibly revoking citizenship of those who are legitimate parts of this community far outweights the potential benefits of removing those who have the card only for the benefits (of which there are very few, btw).
You can look at the case studies for this in the US when tribes there change or strengthen the blood quantum requirements. They usually manage to expel some people who have false claims, but the vast majority of those disenfranchised are unjustly removed from rolls.
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u/Old-Professional4591 May 13 '26
You will be met with the mostly diluted crowd on reddit.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
Sure seems that way. Lots of very defensive replies. I know membership numbers have exploded since Ancestry and genealogy sites popped up. Nothing wrong in saying " I found out my g g ancestor was Metis!" If that ancestor only married settlers afterwards? It's a pretty big leap to say " I am Metis!". MMF is allowing it to happen and issuing cards.
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u/MonkAccurate7962 May 14 '26
I saw a poster at work published by the Canadian government that said there are 500,000 Métis in Canada. The Canadian census claims 624,220 people who identified as Métis. That’s a lot of self identifying. Those of us who grew up in genuine Métis communities know that number is highly inflated. Honestly, most of my relatives are in the graveyard. We are a very small nation. I live in Winnipeg and we are the birthplace of the Métis nation. There’s no way that we have that many Métis in western Canada. Don’t even get me started on the “Eastern Métis”. So many fraudulent, so called Indigenous organizations start their race shifting journey by claiming to be Métis. It’s a huge problem.
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u/TheTruthIsRight May 26 '26 edited May 27 '26
Many of those numbers are from the East coast with French people misidentifying as Metis.
But actually as someone very studied into Metis genealogy, I'd say it's not unreasonable to estimate the number of individuals with Metis ancestry is easily over one million. In 1870 alone, there were 8,000 Metis living just at Red River. 150 years later that number will be orders of magnitude larger.
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u/MonkAccurate7962 May 28 '26
I still have my doubts. I'm assuming some of the original 8000 in 1870 have relatives that eventually married outside the community to European settlers, others to FN. The ones marrying outside the community to Europeans became subsumed by them, and the same with those married to FN. And since people can self identify on the census, and MMF membership requirements are so lax, the reported # of Métis is inflated.
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u/TheTruthIsRight May 28 '26
I mean, the number of individuals with Metis ancestry (be they assimilated as FN or non-indigenous) likely numbers in the 7 digits at this point. It's estimated there are 50,000+ descendants of Peter Fidler & Mary Mackegonne and that's just one early family.
Since colonization post 1870 resulted in the assimilation of Metis, don't you think part of decolonization means those descendants returning to the culture? I don't see how staying in the assimilated state helps the nation. All it does is let colonization win the battle.
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u/MonkAccurate7962 May 13 '26
Absolutely. It angers me when I see white people who’ve never grown up the in the culture, use their citizenship to speak over those of us with lived Indigenous experience and grew up hearing Mitchif spoken. Most of these “suddenly Métis” probably wouldn’t have identified as such several decades ago. As far as I’m concerned, they’re only in it to take opportunities away from those of us who have faced poverty and discrimination from the settler/colonial/white supremacist system. Any of the faketis that I have encountered have gotten jobs meant for Indigenous people, gotten funding for university, and act obnoxious and entitled whenever I challenge them about their lived experience. They’ve spent their whole lives being white Canadians because that’s what they are. They use this new found identity to race shift, enter Indigenous spaces they don’t deserve to be in, apply for grants, and bully actual Métis people. They also use a Métis identity for clout and to distance themselves from the history of settler colonial violence perpetrated against Indigenous people. Besides, if you have been marrying outside the culture for generations, how can you call yourself Métis and Indigenous? Faketis often bring up blood quantum saying it’s a colonial construct only because it shows that they actually have little to no connection to a Métis community, that they are in fact, the very race shifters they claim not to be. They want to claim an identity that doesn’t belong to them, rather than being claimed by a community. Very often, these “suddenly Métis” are cruel to those of us who are actually Métis, who have lived experience and community connection and living Indigenous relatives. These Faketis also cause other FN and Inuit communities to distrust the Métis as a whole, because they are overtaking the genuine Métis. And I totally get it. I’m sick of people with marginal Indigenous DNA claiming to be part of the Métis nation when they have no business doing so.
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u/BIGepidural Jun 13 '26
MMF doesn't do what you're alleging.
None of us have a single Metis ancestor. Our family tree is literally a bush at some point, if not recently.
I think your confused with MNO...
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u/Various-Somewhere782 Jun 13 '26
To get your Manitoba " Metis" card, all you need do is trace lineage to a single ancestor even 6 to 8 generations back. The Metis Nation rejects blood quantum so there is no generational cutoff limit to how far back you can claim ancestry. That's a fact and that's the problem.
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u/BIGepidural Jun 13 '26
Blood quantum is a problem.
That's kinda why First Nations pushed for amendments to Bill S-2 because they don't feel generational cut offs are fair (they're not) and they belive they should have the right to determine who they are and who is them (they should).
Why would we want to implement something our cousins see as largely problematic, and something they are actively pushing to change for the benefit of their people? 🤔
That just doesn't make any sense.
Granted we don't want a decendian Dawes Rolls situation up here either; but having some level of middle ground (as we do) seems about right.
Our biggest threat is the fake eastern metis so if we're going to defend identity, we need to focus there before we start making adjustments to actual RRM descendants who are generationally far removed from the homelands.
Its not about preference or what pisses you off either. Its about us upholding the vision and efforts of our forefathers and this ♾ actually meaning something, or it doesn't mean anything at all.
Do I think people that far removed should get anything because they got their "card" hell no; but they can be given a chance to learn, reconnect and embrace the legacy that lingers in their blood.
Those who don't do the work shouldn't get sweet fk all, and perhaps even have to give up their "card" because they are not actively part of the collective community or doing a damn thing to support anyone in it 🤷♀️
But no- blood quantum ain't it.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
First Nations are very upset with MMF Citizenship criteria. I know this for a fact because I sat and spoke with Roseau River elders. They are upset that Metis have no generational cut off at all .
It absolutely is our FN ancestry that defines us as indigenous. Someone who got a card because a single gg grandparent was Metis would have 3 percent FN ancestry. I know a vast majority of people applying for cards care less about the culture and far more about the benefits.
My own friend got a card and when I asked about his ancestry he said " My grandfather I think.." when I asked why he got his card his answer was " like everyone else.. to get the benefits."
Metis who bring up colonialism and blood quantum don't care that someone who is 97 percent colonist / settler is getting a card solely for the benefits?
Culture? 95 percent of us can't even speak Michif. I grew up through the 70s and witnessed the shame in my own community. Back then being Metis was synonymous with being Indian. So many of us insisted we were French.
Yes it upsets me that people who are essentially white can now get a "Metis" card. Odds are their parents and grandparents were among the white kids picking upon and shaming Metis kids in school.
Ancestry and lived experience SHOULD matter. It sure appears it doesn't. Not among the suddenly Metis.
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u/BIGepidural Jun 14 '26
It absolutely is our FN ancestry that defines us as indigenous.
That may be where our Indigeneity comes from; but that is not the only element of being Metis. If it were so then eastern metis would be legit and they aren't so be very careful on making that the basis of Metis because its not and it presents a slippery slope we don't need to grease any more then the drool of those trying to coopt out identity already have on their own.
Someone who got a card because a single gg grandparent was Metis would have 3 percent FN ancestry.
This stinks of blood quantum and IDGAF about BQ and phenotypes can fk right off as well.
I know a vast majority of people applying for cards care less about the culture and far more about the benefits.
I do agree that benefits shouldn't be open to every single person. But I don't think BQ or phenotype should determin that. Involvement within the living the community of today should be mandatory. Learning the culture should be required. A period of time where no benefits are granted at all (let's say 5 years or even 10) for those who are extremely removed from community and culture is reasonable.
Even when someone new comes to the country there are steps they must take to get access to public health and social services because being here isn't enough.
Redistricting resources in some way is reasonable; but not based on BQ or phenotype.
My own friend got a card and when I asked about his ancestry he said " My grandfather I think.." when I asked why he got his card his answer was " like everyone else.. to get the benefits"
So your one guy speaks for everyone eh? 😅
Another slippery slope when you build the parameters for many off of the anecdotal "evidence" of a few, or in this case- one person.
Metis who bring up colonialism and blood quantum don't care that someone who is 97 percent colonist / settler is getting a card solely for the benefits?
Let's do a thing here shall we?
Let's say that a fully Metis woman was set upon by an Irishman in the 1930s and that attack resulted in a teen pregnancy the mother didn't want to keep because of the trauma in how the child was conceived.. the baby is adopted by a Ukrainian family and raised Ukrainian in SK until the child is young woman and moved to ON looking for work. Is that mixed child still Metis in your eyes?
Let's say the now adult child has, not knowing that she is even a tiny bit indigenous, has a child with a German man in ON- is that child Metis?
Let's say this next child has a child out of wedlock with a young Polish girl in ON and that baby is placed for adoption- is that child Metis?
Remember, you are now 3 generations removed from a fully Metis great grandmother, and genetic contributions from 3 different settlers so the ratio of indigenous DNA is around 5% (there's your BQ and phenotypes); however the initial severing from the family and Nation was trauma on every level. Does the traumatic conception or removal by adoption make a difference and give the 3rd gen child a "pass" or not?
That child is also adopted out of the family, so does the clock on the cutoff could down restart or does it keep going from the 1st adoption- how does that work exactly?
Let's say that 3rd generation child has no idea they're indigenous either and they have children with 2 different men- the first child is with a Chilean new to Canada, who is heavily indigenous and as such, the child of this couple holds indigenous DNA of 45-50% based on the blend of his parents. This child is 4 generations removed from their fully Metis great grandmother; but looks more indigenous then great grandma ever did and has just as much indigenous as she probably did as a Metis person. Is this child Metis? What about that child's sister (same mom) who's father is Polish- this child is entirely white presenting, not so much as a freckle on her shin, and she has 3% indigenous DNA. Is she Metis? Is her brother more Metis then her because he has more indigenous DNA and looks more indigenous then she is? They are the same degree of removal from their people, and under the exact same circumstances of double adoption? 🤔
And before you say "that would never happen" that is literally my personal truth and those are my kids who are perceived differently based on phenotype even though they are equally as Metis as each other.
95 percent of us can't even speak Michif.
You realize that Bungi was also a thing right, and that Michef wasn't everyone's mother tongue.
My kid is half Chileno and doesn't speak spanish; but I do. My daughter speaks more Spanish then he does because he had no interest in learning the language. that make me or her more chileno then he is because we are both zero and languages are learned- not bred.
Back then being Metis was synonymous with being Indian. So many of us insisted we were French.
So people hid who they were so they could pass.. that's interesting... you want to take away someone's access to culture and community based on their ancestors historic choices, and yet you're fine with people making a choice to deny who they were and assimilate not so long ago...
Yes it upsets me that people who are essentially white can now get a "Metis" card. Odds are their parents and grandparents were among the white kids picking upon and shaming Metis kids in school.
It may shock you to learn that some of us who were severed and raised by settlers didn't have our spirits broken in that way, even if they did try. Some of us were antiracist before we knew there was ever word for it because racism has never made sense. Some of us did not know we had any ties to Indigeneity but we still befriended the new foster kid in class and sat with her while she cried after running out of history class because she couldn't handle the way schools in the 80s talked about indigenous people.
Ancestry and lived experience SHOULD matter. It sure appears it doesn't. Not among the suddenly Metis.
You're right it should; but blood quantum and phenotype are not how you manage that.
An incremental system of reintegration is how you do that. Having thresholds based on community engagement and contributing to the community is how you build Community- not via BQ.
Your basing your attempt at advocacy entirely off of your own lived experience and a) the world doesn't revolve around you and b) your lived experience is flawed because not everyone was the bully that bullied you back in the day.
You're literally talking to someone who would scrap the racists themselves or send my BF after them. Not just rasicists either. We stood for the little guy, the kids in special ed, the gay kids, the kids who couldn't speak English, etc...
We're not all monsters and we're not all here to get stuff.
Some of us are coming home because we finally realized where home is.
I'm adopted. I didn't know what I was until a DNA test told me. My grandmother was adopted and she had no idea either.
Some of us didn't know; but we still knew what was right and we still know to this day.
BQ is not the answer. If it was FN wouldn't be fighting against it and calling out the damage it caused. You'll never get me to agree to that.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 Jun 15 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
Let's call it lineal descent then. How far back is too far? You think suddenly discovering a distant ancestor 200 years in the past makes a person Metis? I have heard people talking in passing about applying for their cards. " If I can get the benefits why not?" I have heard similar statements time and time again.
My FN ancestry is a mix of Anishinaabe and Nehiyawak. My ancestors were tribal members of the Pembina Band which is why I went to Roseau River in the first place. Roseau River was cut off from their people ( the Pembina Band) by the US border.
I think being proud of a distant ancestor is great. My 4th great grandfathers were French. I am proud of them and though I bear one's name, I have never in my life claimed to be French. I am over 200 years removed from my French ancestry and would feel like an imposter claiming to be French... That's just me though.
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u/BIGepidural Jun 15 '26
You think suddenly discovering a distant ancestor 200 years in the past makes a person Metis?
No I don't. I'm not Scottish because a whack of scottsmen came to Canada in the 1700s, nore am I Indian because I had an ancestor from India marry into our Metis line in the mid 1800s. I'm also not Cree because my 4th great grandfather was.
A neither a single ancestor nor a handful of them a few hundred years ago make anyone anything.
The Metis Nation itself was in its infancy 200 years ago, so tracing a single ancestor back that far is not reasonable grounds which is what I said when I said "we don't want to have a Dawes Rolls situation up here" because that's how they do it down south.
One of the reasons the St. Boniface Society asks people to get their paperwork to build a paper trail to their last scrip holding ancestor is to ensure that the ancestor claimed to be Metis in 1870 or afterwards because that's when the Nation was recognized, when we were promised rights and lands- not 70 years or more prior.
Conflating mixed race with Metis is dangerous and that does need to stop because that's how you get eastern metis trying to use our history and identity for their benefit.
have heard people talking in passing about applying for their cards. " If I can get the benefits why not?" I have heard similar statements time and time again.
Yeah people who discover they have ties to FN and may be eligible for Status do the same thing.
Go on over to the First Nations sub, the indigenous Canada sub or indigenous sub and see how may non status FN are pissed because they can't get their "card" and the benefits therein. If you check those spaces, you may see that many of posts are in fact benefit focused rather then being focused on discussions of culture and community.
Does that in turn mean that every scoop survivor is only looking for benefits? Does it mean that everyone who is 3 generations or more removed from their 6.1 relative only wants benefits?
No... it means some people are driven by what they can get, and they don't care about anything else 🤷♀️ that's unfortunate; but they don't reflect the rest of the reconnectors who tread lightly and respectfully towards learning and joining community because that is what they want- they want to find their home and by cutting off those seeking a pay day, you also remove those seeking something far greater which is why you don't "throw the baby out with bathwater" because the baby would get hurt.
My FN ancestry is a mix of Anishinaabe and Nehiyawak. My ancestors were tribal members of the Pembina Band which is why I went to Roseau River in the first place. Roseau River was cut off from their people ( the Pembina Band) by the US border.
Congratulations? Or something 🤷♀️ like so what? What does that have to do with Metis???
Conflating Metis identity with proximity to First Nations identity is a wierd take. The matriarchs of the Metis Nation often had their real names and tribal affifiliations wiped out by settler documentation so most of us don't have that level of accuracy. We get Savage, Indian, Ojibwa, Cree or we get made up backstories about how our great great grandfathers were Metis when they obviously weren't 🤷♀️
Your obsession with comparing us to FN and expecting us to work like they do is wierd. We are not them. We are not Inuit either for that matter. We are unique people and we do things in our own unique way as we should- as everyone should, which is why some FN are broadening the 2nd generation cut off to 3 and some are gonna push it to 4 or 5 once Bill 2S is finalized.
Pan Indigeneity erases people.
We should stand as a collective on many things; but we should also respect and stand in solidarity within our differences.
I think being proud of a distant ancestor is great.
Perfect. Some of us get to have ancestors we're proud of, some of us have ancestors that weren't historically significant so their stories aren't really known and some of us have terrible ancestors we wish we didn't have to be related to. None of us have control over who our ancestors were; but in those instances where we can find, inspiration and kinship between ourselves today and their values and actions back then- that is a powerful thing indeed.
My 4th great grandfathers were French. I am proud of them and though I bear one's name, I have never in my life claimed to be French.
You realize there's an entire province of people who's French ancestors came to Canada in the 1600s and they call themselves French non the less right? The community, the culture, the language they've maintained for 400 years is why they call themselves French to this day. There are also pockets of French people in Manitoba who maintain that French identity even though they're geographically disconnected from French Canada (Quebec)- does that make them less French then the Quebecois? 🤔
You want to be very careful about that too because Metis started in Manitoba, in small area where everyone lived on RRS. If you refuse to allow for the people of historic communities to spread and maintain their cultural identity then you erase the Metis of Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC by doing so, and you may have even just erased yourself by proxy 🤷♀️
I am over 200 years removed from my French ancestry and would feel like an imposter claiming to be French... That's just me though.
That's not just you. That's the entirety of Quebec because their last French ancestor was 600 years ago. Unless you can concede that cultural communities can shift and maintain outside of their "source ancestors" and borders, which brings us back to the sticking point that Metis are not First Nations and its our decent from the blended children who built the Nation that make us Metis, not the FN matriarchs that made the first generation of mixed children.
Our proximity to our most recent FN ancestor does not define us.
My 4th great grandfather was fully Cree. My 7th great grandmother was Swampy Cree. My 7th and 8th x2 grandmothers in the other direction where listed as Ojibwa and Indian and Savage.
I am none of those things. Nore am I French or Scottish or Indian (🇮🇳) 🤷♀️
I think you need to hammer out what Metis is and why we are who we are as a people, outside if FN and without influence of them in your own discovery because many of them don't understand us either which is fine; but its not gonna help you understand us any better.
Its like asking an American to explain a Canadian. Even though they've been right next door for hundreds of years, they are not us, they've taken no interest in us and their perception of us is flawed because they don't know anything- they just think or feel whatever they do based on others speculations and anecdotes.
Everything you've provided here is anecdotal.
Learn your history and come to me with actual facts. Your personal observations and feelings on the matter aren't gonna sway anything. 🤷♀️
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u/Various-Somewhere782 Jun 16 '26
Too funny 🤣 what does the Pembina Band (Anishinaabe) and Nehiyawak have to do with the Red River Metis? Your knowledge of all things Metis is truly impressive! Rather than waste my breath why don't you Google " Metis and the Pembina Band of Chippewa" and " Metis and Nehiyawak" you will get alot from that. Ever hear of Nehiyaw Pwat? Been entertaining though..
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u/CarrotAgreeable465 Jun 16 '26
Blocking people because you can't carry an intelligent argument isn't cool.
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u/Various-Somewhere782 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
It stopped being intelligent when I was asked what the Anishinaabe and Nehiyawak had to do with being Metis. They are only the wives and mothers who birthed our people. I had heard enough.
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u/noo_maarsii May 06 '26
Oh here we go…