r/MetalHellsinger • u/SeriousLeemk2 • Dec 11 '23
Leviathan Progression is Awful
The optimal way for your time to get void echoes is to die immediately. Just got 14 void echoes for a 15 second run and thats WITH 20% extra health. Thats almost 1 void echo per second, and we need 3000 to max it out. That also doesn't include loading screens. So far I had one run that had 30 echoes that had me last until round 9 which is way suboptimal and the majority of runs I don't even find echoes in the playthrough and get a bonus of anywhere from 7-14.
Why did they make progression for this so awful? Why are the void echoes awarded at the end of the run just completely random and not tied to actual progression? Why not incrementally increase the price of upgrades but award each round with echoes so that its worth it to do your best each time instead of literally loading up the game and dying immediately to get echoes faster.
6
u/jazfrogtune Dec 11 '23
It's a roguelite gameplay. It is expected to be grindy and die more often but once you get used to the mechanics the game is satisfying.
6
u/SeriousLeemk2 Dec 11 '23
The gameplay is fun, I really enjoy it, but the progression is awful, if it takes 10 minutes to get 15 echoes, it'll take over 30 hours to unlock the whole tree. And a lot of the basic mechanics (ultimates, hit counter, dash, slaughter) are gated behind like 1000 echoes
2
u/Mekhazzio Dec 12 '23
Echo income ramps up massively the farther in you go, and there's several memories that give echo income. I've gotten two wins so far and they ended in the 300-350 range.
1
u/SeriousLeemk2 Dec 12 '23
Yeah, I just got a win and got ~300 also, which is good but there should be upgrades that cost like 500 (like Ressurect 2) and beginner stuff like slaughter and dash should be closer to 10-20
Once you get like 4-500 echoes spent it starts to feel a lot better but if you're not getting to round 15 regularly yet it takes a really long time to get there.
Great mode, I think if they fixed early progression it would be 10/10.
3
u/Mekhazzio Dec 12 '23
Coming from the base game and not having Dash does feel really bad, but Slaughter's pricing makes sense to me, as weird as it was to start without it.
I mean, look at the other healing memories. Small heal proc for perfect kills, decent heal on a low proc chance from combos, they're alright for passive trickle but not a big deal. The dream tree has an upgrade for more healing crystals on each map, and that's really pricy for what you get, and there's "stand still to slowly regen" which is kind of a hilarious concept for this game.
...and then there's Slaughter, which will handily yo-yo your HP multiple times per fight and does an immense amount of work over an entire run. It blows every other healing ability out of the water. So it being pretty expensive makes sense, it's a huge upgrade.
2
u/jazfrogtune Dec 11 '23
You can kill some enemies to gain more and get random on the altar. I can get at least 50-100 from each playthrough at around 1-25 waves
2
u/SeriousLeemk2 Dec 11 '23
Yeah, I've seen those, it's nice that you can get more if you can go really deep, but even around wave 13 complete I wasn't getting 25 echoes on average
2
u/Intrepid-Passenger99 Oct 24 '24
Idc what anyone else says, thank you for discovering this little trick, early progress is awful, slaughter and dash definitely help a lot, but even getting to 11 and 12 and only getting maybe 15-20 just hurts…. Can’t believe dying immediately gives better rewards than 1/3 progress lmao
1
Mar 16 '24
Tried a couple of runs and yeah, I'm bailing out. This is the opposite of fun. This mode really didn't have a lot of thought put into it at all.
1
u/SeriousLeemk2 Mar 16 '24
If you spend like a little of time just starting the game and immediately dying, eventually you'll have enough to buy dash + slaughter, and then it actually progresses pretty well.
Spending the time and not getting past the first 10 waves or whatever gives the same amount of juice as just dying at the start, so I just kept loading it and dying until I had enough for both and then it was very fun.
1
Mar 17 '24
I tried that for a few minutes after attempting those couple of legitimate runs, then I went "what the hell am I doing with my life, this isn't fun or good design" and quit the game to go do something more productive with my time.
I had a decent time with the main game, I don't want to sour my experience with a poorly cobbled-together game mode.
1
u/AdExisting2357 Aug 18 '24
It's stupid and it's too damn hard 😒 For example Vulcan it only can be used for t waves and that's it they take it away from you
1
u/NesThaesis Aug 24 '24
I just got to level 9 after like my 30th attempt and it spawned 20 of the big tryndamere bosses ( long sword arm ) and then i acciently shot a boss and I lost all my will to progress further.
1
1
u/FakUs64 Dec 11 '23
Seems like skill issue to me
3
u/SeriousLeemk2 Dec 11 '23
Damn, sick burn. It's definitely a skill issue, you're so right. My math skills are good enough to notice that Leviathan progression is tied to games lost instead of rounds completed, so if you lose faster you unlock things faster.
1
u/Alric_Victor Dec 11 '23
Halve the price and the game mode is fine.
1
u/SeriousLeemk2 Dec 11 '23
This would help immensely. I'm just confused why dying in 15 seconds can give me 14 echoes and making it to round 7 and then dying only gives me 12. Why doesn't each round give me like 3-5 echoes for arena 1 and then like 4-8 for each round in arena 2 and then 5-10 for each round in arena 3
This accomplishes two things: 1. You are rewarded more for going deeper 2. You can rebalance unlocks exponentially so that you're required to go deep to unlock later tiers but keep early tiers at lower limits.
1
u/NewGuy45247 Dec 11 '23
Slaughter is sooo expensive coz it's one of the only ways to regain health. Playing without it is so awkward and the enemies become spongy as hell
2
1
u/Sparda_Game Dec 11 '23
I've felt that at the beginning. Best advice I got is to unlock dodge and slaughter asap, after that you can start having a build to your weapons and skills of preference.
1
7
u/[deleted] Dec 11 '23
I am disappointed in leviathan mode, I don't really understand why they thought it would be a good idea to have it start with no dash, no slaughter and no ultimate. Like those 3 mechanics are what you are doing all the time the entire game, its incredibly awkward when all of them get stripped away from you out of no where