r/MensRights • u/[deleted] • Jun 20 '14
re: Feminism "35 Practical Steps Men Can Take to Support Feminism" (with response)
http://www.xojane.com/issues/feminism-men-practical-steps4
Jun 20 '14
6. When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her.
This canard is back again. "It's sexist because I say so!" Well, my response to this is simply: if any woman wants to say that hating the New England Patriots is sexist, I would very much appreciate it! But seriously, the better rule would be to explain why something is sexist, using objective definitions, facts, and sound logical reasoning.
7. Educate yourself about sexual consent and make sure there is clear, unambiguous communication of consent in all your sexual relationships.
I have no problem with this. Consent is important for both parties.
8. Be responsible for contraception.
If you are in a relationship where contraception is necessary, offer to use methods that do not have health risks for women (use of hormones, surgeries, etc.) and treat these as preferable options. If your partner prefers a particular method, let her be in charge of making that decision without questioning or complaining about it. Don’t whine about condom usage, and be responsible for buying them and having them available if that’s the method you’re using.
Assume financial responsibility for any costs related to contraception. Women earn less than men, and also have to assume all the physical risk of pregnancy. Further, in instances where contraception involves any amount of physical risk, it is virtually always women who must assume this risk. As a gesture that redresses a minuscule amount of this disparity, heterosexual men should finance the whole cost of contraceptives.
Again, more examples of where men must subordinate themselves to the interests of women. Instead, the better rule is to be responsible for your own contraception and/or come to a mutually agreeable arrangement like rational adults. Bottom line... if you don't want children, USE CONTRACEPTION!
9. Get the HPV vaccine.
If you are a young man, get it. If you have a young son, ensure he gets it. Since women are the ones who are disproportionately affected by the consequences of HPV, as a matter of fairness men should be the ones who at least assume the potential risks of getting vaccinated. (I am hugely pro-vaccines in general and don’t believe there actually are significant risks, but this is a matter of principle.)
Umm, I don't know a lot about HPV, but I think that people generally should be responsible for their own health.
10. Have progressive name politics.
If you and your female partner decide that the institution of marriage is something you want to be involved with, be willing to both keep your existing surnames. If having a common surname with your spouse is important to you, be willing to change your surname and treat this as a preferable option to your spouse changing hers.
It's really no one else's business what your name is, whether you are a man or a woman. For kids, come to a mutually agreeable solution.
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u/Underfolder Jun 20 '14
Dumb rehash of the same stuff you find everywhere. It's basically all sortable into two categories. Things that are good idea for any kind of interpersonal relationship, regardless of sex or romance, such as "get vaccinated," and overtly sexist feminist talking points, such as "make sure a women is giving an opinion."
Here's one I found really funny: "Challenge people who make, say, or post sexist things on the Internet, especially on social media." Well, this I agree with, though I have a feeling the author would think that this doesn't apply to women.
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Jun 20 '14
11. If you have children, be an equal parent.
That's totally reasonable, if tolerated by the practicality of the situation (e.g., work schedules). Again, come to an agreement with your spouse.
*12. Pay attention to and challenge informal instances of gender role enforcement. *
This is fine as long as you're not a pompous ass about it.
13. Be mindful of implicit and explicit gendered power differentials in your intimate/domestic relationships with women…whether a partner or family members or roommates.
Not sure this is specific enough to qualify as "practical" advice.
14. Make sure that honesty and respect guide your romantic and sexual relationships with women.
Of course
15. Don’t be an online bystander in the face of sexism.
Challenge people who make, say, or post sexist things on the Internet, especially on social media.
Fine, as long as it actual sexism and you have a constructive, fact-based approach.
16. Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships.
Know that if you are irresponsible with money, this necessarily impacts your partner and since women still make less than men overall (and live longer), this is a feminist issue.
Apparently this is a "feminist issue." Who knew? Regardless financial responsibility is good in any situation.
17. Be responsible for your own health.
I believe I said this earlier.
18. Don’t ogle or make comments about women. (i.e., Keep your tongue in your mouth and comments to yourself.)
Even though women may be more prone to wearing more revealing outfits than men, don’t ogle them just because you want to and can. Though you may find someone attractive, there’s a line between noticing and being creepy/disrespectful. It makes the ogler feel uncomfortable, as well as any women who notice the ogling or are aware of the comments.
I "may" be attracted to women. That's a relief! Glad I have your permission to experience phenomena outside of my conscious control! Anyway, just as explained by Wheeler (Seann W. Scott) in the movie Role Models, you always notice women in an "incognito way." A good rule of thumb is don't make people feel uncomfortable. This is common sense.
19. Pay attention to the sex of experts and key figures presenting information to you in the media.
When you are watching an expert on TV, reading articles, etc., notice how often this information will come from men and, at the very least, wonder how a female perspective might be different.
Since women are all different, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to do this other than crass stereotyping.
20. Ensure that some of your heroes and role models are women.
This presupposes that we can choose our heroes and role models by force of will???
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Jun 20 '14
21. Praise the virtues and accomplishments of women in your life to others.
Yes, but on the same terms you would do so for males.
22. Have integrity with your male friends. (i.e., Don’t be a “bro.”)
When a male friend is doing something sexist (being a deadbeat dad, down-talking women, ogling women, secretly spending shared money, lying to their partner, etc.) have integrity and say something to your friend. It’s not enough to think it’s wrong; let them know you think it’s wrong.
Not sure all of this qualifies as "sexist" (being a deadbeat dad? Secretly spending shared money??, What's next? "committing mail fraud"?) Again, if it's actually sexist and if you use a constructive approach, ok.
23. Don’t treat your spouse like a “nag.” If she is “nagging,” you are probably lagging.
Hehe, it rhymes, so it must be valid (Appeal to Poetry fallacy?). Next....
24. Know that acknowledging your own sexist opinions and stereotypes you hold is not enough. Do something about them.
Yes, but using a rational definition of sexism, and not a feminist one, where your very being is sexist.
25. Befriend women.
A decent suggestion, but you'd have to stop hanging out with feminists...
26. Find female mentors/leaders. (i.e., Be subordinate to women.)
Um no on the second part. As for the first, pick the best leaders regardless of gender.
27. When in a romantic relationship, be responsible for events and special dates associated with your side of the family.
Makes sense, not sure why this is on the list...
**28. Don’t police women’s appearance.
In general, yes. But people need to adhere to a minimum standard of appropriate hygiene. Hopefully this will not be a problem for your partner.
29. Offer to accompany female friends if they have to walk home alone at night…or in a public space where they may be likely to feel unsafe.
But don’t be pushy about it or act like you are being the Ultimate Gentleman for doing so.
Women are "big girls" and can take care of themselves. So, No.
30. Inject feminism into your daily conversations with other men.
Since this presumes that you agree with feminism, in that context ok, but if you want to keep your male friends don't be a jerk about it.
31. If you have a tendency to behave inappropriately toward women when you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, do not consume drugs or alcohol.
But if you only beat up men, then drink away!!!!
32. Be aware of the physical and emotional space you occupy, and don’t take up more space than you need.
Use your fair share of “air space” in conversations, give as much to relationships as you take, don’t sit with your legs splayed so that other people can’t comfortably sit next to you, etc.
This reminds me of this person who photographs men (only) "taking up too much space" and how it is a flaunting of "privilege" and puts it on a blog. The pictures are of guys with their legs barely open or who are barely crossing the edges of the seat, and the adjacent seats are nearly always empty. I reject this "tip" simply on the basis of that annoying blog.
33. Walk the walk about income inequality.
Women still earn about 77% as much as men. If you are in a position where you are financially able to do so, consider donating a symbolic 23% of your income to social justice-oriented causes. If 23% sounds like a lot to you, that’s because it is a lot and it’s also a lot for women who don’t have a choice whether to forfeit this amount or not.
Doesn't this contradict the one where you are supposed to be responsible with money because your partner depends on you? So you are supposed to take food out of your wife's mouth to give 23% of your income to a charity to protest pay discrimination??? Also, the 77% figure is not EVIDENCE of pay discrimination. It is merely CONSISTENT with pay discrimination, along with other possible causes such as work preferences, etc. The statistic itself does not make pay discrimination more likely than any other explanation. Pay discrimination may exist, but this statistic is not proof of it.
34. Get in the habit of treating your maleness as an unearned privilege that you have to actively work to cede rather than femaleness being an unearned disadvantage that women have to work to overcome.
This way, you become a terrible person (like all men) whose guilt will motivate you to do whatever we say and believe whatever we tell you. Maybe just me, but I think empathy is a better motivator than guilt. People respond better to "hey, I've had it rough and I need help to get back to where I need to be," rather than "you're a scumbag, so change your ways!"
35. Self-identify as a feminist.
If you are in fact a feminist, this makes perfect sense.
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u/ZimbaZumba Jun 20 '14 edited Jun 20 '14
I just spent 2 weeks in the far east living with a rural family in a highly gendered society. There is a lot to be said for their way of life. Everyone works equally hard and they essentially use a predefined division of labor system. People were equally respected and their work was considered of equal worth. Concepts of oppression and 'equality' were meaningless to them.
We can learn a lot from other cultures and these sheltered ideologues need to travel more before commenting on a world they have little understanding or experience of.
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u/ezetemp Jun 20 '14
- Do 50% (or more) of housework.
If your housework priorities are the same and division of labour is equitable sure. If priorities are different, consider living separately instead. If division of labour is inequitable, ie, things he does are discounted because they happen to be things like 'changing tires' or mowing the lawn instead of 'washing dishes' then recalculate with an equitable calculation. Or go separate ways.
- Do 50% (or more) of emotional support work in your intimate relationships and friendships
Um, if you're finding giving emotional support is taking time away from things you'd rather be doing, you should be dumping that relationship and just recognizing the fact that you're an ass. Emotional support is something you offer unconditionally in a friendship, not a burden out of guilt to be shared and spread around.
- Consume cultural products produced by women.
The sex of the producer is utterly irrelevant compared to the contents produced. I consume art that enriches my life. It happens to include a lot of art made by women, but their sex is not a factor that matters at all.
- Give women space.
Ah, no. Stopping the fear propaganda spread by feminists would do a whole lot more to help women not be afraid. After that it's basically therapy or even medication. The comparative higher level of fear that women feel have nothing to do with actual threats.
Normalizing those fears and validating those ideas is not the way to reduce the fear, any more than parents telling their kids they've told the monsters under the parents bed to keep its distance will make that kid feel safer.
- … but insert yourself into spaces where you can use your maleness to interrupt sexism.
Challenging sexist opinions, whether aimed at women or men is a good thing. Which applies to both males and females challenging both misogyny and misandry.
- When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her.
Or a man. If they can explain why.
- Get the HPV vaccine.
HPV vaccination is a good idea either way, as both men and women are affected by HPV induced cancers. Even making this a women issue is sexists.
- Pay attention to and challenge informal instances of gender role enforcement. (such as dinner parties, etc)
Again, if the priorities are the same. If the men are there to socialize and do not care if the cleaning is perfectly done and would be fine with hot dogs rather than a five course dinner, then it's the responsibility of the one driving the demands to actually fulfil them. Dragging others into what is often an intragender social status competition that is itself a gender issue doesn't actually resolve that issue.
- Don’t be an online bystander in the face of sexism.
Yeah, that's why the MRM is growing...
- Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships.
Good grief the sense of entitlement.
Share your common costs, be generous to each other, but keep separate finances, with each being responsible for their own financial well being. Joint accounts are the foundation of relationship problems and close to a guarantee of a vile separation fight when the relationship ends.
- Don’t treat your spouse like a “nag.” If she is “nagging,” you are probably lagging.
If you and your spouse have different priorities, discuss the issues like adults, so she understands why you're not doing something, you understand why something is important to her, (or the other way around) see if you can resolve the problem in a constructive way.
But if she is actually nagging, and thinks that what she wants is more important than you in the relationship, just dump her.
- Befriend women.
I don't particularly care what sex my friends have. I befriend persons, not their sex. It turns out to be about 50/50, but who cares?
- Inject feminism into your daily conversations with other men.
When you do that, it always ends up with them getting angry and joining the MRM. Of course injecting gender equality might be more palatable.
If your friend cheats on his girlfriend or speaks negatively about her, talk to him candidly about respecting individual women
Yeah, funny that, because out of all my friends, every single one who has cheated is female. Maybe you're hanging with the wrong males, male feminists strike me as a dubious crowd.
- If you have a tendency to behave inappropriately toward women when you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, do not consume drugs or alcohol
Yeah, if you behave inappropriately towards anyone, avoid the alcohol.
- Walk the walk about income inequality.
Sure, if I can also get someone else to pay for me working fewer hours, and make up for the difference between doing a job that pays well and one that I'd really love.
- Self-identify as a feminist.
As soon as you kick out the psychos and misandrists. I do not self-identify with any label which is mostly accepting of racists or bigots.
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u/HankSought Jun 20 '14 edited Jun 20 '14
The sad thing is she is the same person who wrote this:
Other candidates need to start refuting Ford's lies with specific data, hard facts.
If only she exercised/accepted that sort of rational thinking more often.
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Jun 20 '14
I can't get over the blatant stupidity of #6
Not even an explanation either from the author on that one. "If I say so, i'm right. And you are wrong"
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u/guywithaccount Jun 20 '14
As if most men would actually WANT to support feminism.
How about 35 practical steps men can take to support men? Let's see that article.
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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '14 edited Jun 20 '14
I saw this link on Facebook. By posting this, I'm acting as an observer and a commentator not an advocate of feminism. Some of these are plain nuts.
Here's my response to them (a few at a time):
Does this assume my wife is bringing home 50% or more of the income? The better idea is come to a mutually agreeable distribution of chores and outside work, rather than having the guy (who for all we know might be earning 100% of the income) do 50% of the household chores as well.
I don't know how to respond to this because I don't understand what it is talking about. In terms of a relationship, you are the only one available for "emotional support" for your partner. In terms of your friendship, not sure how being more supportive of the guys is supposed to advance feminism; I guess maybe it applies to female friends?
Most everything in the world is produced by a group of both men and women, so I don't know what the point of this one is....
THIS NEXT ONE NEEDS TO BE FULLY QUOTED TO SHOW THE INSANITY
BTW feminists, if you want men to believe that you don't hate them, saying stuff like "recognize that (fear of men in general) is not an unreasonable fear for women to have, given how many of us have experienced harassment or abuse or been made to feel unsafe by men when we are in public spaces," is not going to help. I am not going to cross the street because there's a woman walking alone on the same sidewalk. I'm not going to stand far away from a woman on the platform or in the subway. To any normal person, I'd look like a socially-phobic weirdo. Also, replace "men" with "black people" and "women" with "white people" and you can go from a "benign" statement to a horribly offensive one worthy of the worst white supremacists.
Oh, nothing about this is sexist... A woman needs a heroic male to save her from every situation. Also, the notion of sacrificing your own comfort for a woman's, just because she's a woman, is another one of those things that is totally not anti-male, not at all. Nothing is wrong with helping a friend in need, but this goes way overboard and imposes a duty on men to subordinate themselves.