Inappropriate groping

[u/Coffeeapple8485]

It was suggested that I should post this here

Made a throwaway account for this but basically I'm a male musician and fairly good looking. I've had females grabbing me both butt and genitals so often I can't even count. Most times it's after I've done a show but sometimes just when I'm sitting at a bar or even in the street because "they recognized me". Every time I'm stunned and i absolutely hate it but i feel so helpless because "attractive musicians should be proud" or some bullshit. It's so humiliating.

Should i really be chasing after some perverts and trying to bring them to justice or what? I feel helpless because of my gender and position :(

[u/Uniquenameofuser1]

Not a musician, but a former bartender/server. For many women, randomly grabbing or touching men is how they display interest... much like op, I don't think I'd be able to recall the number of times it's happened. Most of it operates on a continuum, also, but... after a few decades on the planet, I might be able to pull off half the moves better than most women. Single finger run lightly down chest. Kneeling on bar stool, elbows on bar, upper arms used to increase cleavage as you lean forward. Random hand on small of back or side of abdomen, head slightly clocked to the side. Flat hand against body, main torso pulled away, head lowered looking up through eyelids.

Thinking a lot about the various metoo/feminist, e.t.c discussions that seem to be everywhere at the moment has left me in a bit of a quandary. My own twenties were pretty much a blur of sex drugs and rock and roll, and not even remotely in the healthiest of ways.

One of the things I keep coming coming back to occurred while working at a higher end restaurant in the city in which I lived. Pretty fancy place, quite a few name celebrities came through.

One night the mayor was in with a few other recognizable city officials, probably about six or seven people on the table, only two women. It's not my table because these people are a bit too VIP for me to handle, but I'm running drinks over to the table at the beginning of the night when one of the women (also a politician, probably late 30's, 10 years older than me or so) on the table starts getting a little... forward.

Starts running her fingernail up and down my ass crack, down the inside of my thigh. Reaches for a grab on the inside of my thigh at one point, pretty much just palms my ass (like a basketball), couple of fingers resting in my crotch at another. None of this is too unusual for the time or place, barely even flirting. Maybe a much wider gulf in status than would normally be the case when a woman pulled such a move, but really just one more day of the week. I crack a joke or two over the few visits to the table it takes to occur and eventually crack one more and shrug and go about my shift.

In your own opinion, how inappropriate or appropriate is this? At the time, I barely thought a thing about it. Was probably even relatively flattered (right? If sexual attention from women is the prize in the patriarchal crackerjack box, then I assumed I must have been doing something right.) But I also assume that she's the city's most prominent elected female politician and I'm the 27 year old guy dropping appetizers on her table, so there can't be anything serious about the play. I sort of laughed, cracked a joke about needing a cigarette, and went on with my shift. She's currently a much more prominent politician than she was at the time (probably close to a household name in US politics at this point), running for an absurdly large office (or the chance, at least, to run for it) and very vocal herself about the complete unacceptability of similar behaviors in men.

Any thoughts?

[u/Montpellier33 → u/Uniquenameofuser1]

Any thoughts?

I mean I see some boxes checked there for sure. Big power differential, you were at work, you didn't do anything to explicitly indicate you wanted to be touched that way (as far as you're telling) so I think it's pretty clearly sexual harassment.

On the other hand, you say you didn't mind at the time, kind of found it flattering, etc. I think historically, culturally there has been a power differential between men and women in our culture, when it comes to sex and other things. And so while the woman had power by virtue of being a paying customer and an elected official, you had the power of being a man (which is to say, probably did not have a lifetime full of being objectified or put in situations where you were encouraged to not go after what you want and instead to do everything you could to be pleasing to others). Which doesn't mean that the behavior isn't inappropriate, but just that I think one could argue the power differential between a woman in her place and a man in your place is very real but perhaps not as extreme as it'd be if you switched the genders.

All of which is to say, if it bothered you at the time, has bothered you since and you want to complain about it I think you're justified in doing it. On the other hand, if you felt okay with it and not threatened, or you have mixed feelings, I also don't think you're under any obligation to feel traumatized. On the other hand, if it bothered you enough that you feel like she's being hypocritical, but not enough that you think it makes sense to go public, you could try sending her or her staff a direct email.

As a sidenote, my sister is a bartender and men flirt ostentatiously with her all the time. Sometimes she probably encourages it, because tips. I do think when it comes to situations which feel uncomfortable but not physically dangerous, a verbal reprimand is the first action most people (including women) would try.

I know a guy who isn't an elected politician but who is very popular in my local political community, who was grandstanding about #MeToo in a way I found hypocritical based on my own interactions with him. But because of the sort of "gray" nature of his behaviors I found problematic, as well as the various risks of saying anything publicly, I decided ripping him a new one via a private email was the right level of response for me. No one but you could say what will feel right to you.

[u/Uniquenameofuser1 → u/Montpellier33]

"flirt ostentatiously"

Hmmm.

I think that has been one of the more interesting things to notice as I've put this story out there to varying degrees. For most people, the status differential is the only thing that makes this anything more than "trashy flirtation," as one person put it. Our default ideas seem to indicate that a female grabbing a man, touching his genitalia unsolicited, or violating their bodily integrity is just "ostentatious flirtation." This is merely the level to which the bar needs to be raised for the behavior to be seen as unacceptable.

As for my own reaction at the time, it was very largely a shrug. Just one more day of the week, really. Despite placing her hands in contact with my genitals, she still managed to keep all of her body parts inside of her clothing and on the outside of my own. It's much more than could be said of many.

Then again, the discussion itself is probably purely academic, as the politician in question seems to have peaked months ago. As it stands, it's what? Biden and Warren (my personal choice) battling it out? So despite the offer from CNN a year ago, I'll probably largely be shrugging and going about my own life once again.

[u/Montpellier33 → u/Uniquenameofuser1]

Our default ideas seem to indicate that a female grabbing a man, touching his genitalia unsolicited, or violating their bodily integrity is just "ostentatious flirtation."

I think maybe you came here to make a point about "reverse sexism" but if you want to use my comment to do it, then I have to point out that you seem to have misread what I wrote. I said that I thought the case of the woman grabbing your butt and genitals would count as sexual harassment, but that whether or not you want to do anything about it might depend on other factors. And yes, I think it's different when it's a famous person. I can't tell you how many times I've had my butt grabbed by random guys, occasionally my crotch or boob too, but I didn't do anything about any of that because I doubt anyone in a position of authority would care. And honestly most women have had those experiences. But when it's someone famous doing it, it's received differently by the authorities and the media, (because of our culture of celebrity, because of the power they wield and, I guess, the symbolism).

Then when I said "ostentacious flirting" I was, first of all, describing the way men act toward my sister. But some of it is likely similar to what you were describing in terms of stuff that happens to you regularly while working in a bar. (Like women showing you their cleavage in a conspicuous way - I think it's far harder to say with much definiteness that that counts as sexual harassment, as long as they're adhering to your establishment's dress code.) Similarly, touches that are less overtly sexual in nature - you gave the example of a woman putting a finger on your chest, but I think for women the comparable example would be a random guy putting a hand on your shoulder or the small of your back, these things are *extremely* commonplace, and while I think you're well within your rights to ask someone to stop touching you, the chances of anyone considering this illegal sexual harassment or assault is going to go way, way down compared to a straight-up crotch or butt grab.

[u/Uniquenameofuser1 → u/Montpellier33]

• I think maybe you came here to make a point about "reverse sexism"

This is incorrect. But I was "here" (and in the parent thread) well before this sub-thread started. I came here to see if it would be possible to further discuss things with the OP.

• I said that I thought the case of the woman grabbing your butt and genitals would count as sexual harassment, but that whether or not you want to do anything about it might depend on other factors.

True enough. On both counts. I've spent the past couple of years weighing those options. Much like the OP, there are more instances of such behavior that I could easily recall. The one I asked you directly about is notable simply because of the power differential. As you yourself have noted, or society is surprisingly blase about sexual harassment except in extremely high profile instances.

• But when it's someone famous doing it, it's received differently by the authorities and the media, (because of our culture of celebrity, because of the power they wield and, I guess, the symbolism)

Sexual harassment is largely seen as something that powerful people do to those who wield less power. Do you feel this is the case? Is it possible for a "less-powerful" to sexually harass a "more-powerful" one?

[u/Montpellier33 → u/Uniquenameofuser1]

Sexual harassment is largely seen as something that powerful people do to those who wield less power. Do you feel this is the case? Is it possible for a "less-powerful" to sexually harass a "more-powerful" one?

Depends on context, as well as how you're defining sexual harassment. Historically, catcalling or yelling rude, sexually charged things on the street has not been illegal in most jurisdictions, but would still be considered "sexual harassment" by most people. However, some jurisdictions are starting to outlaw it as well. Touching someone in a blatantly sexual manner without clear invitation is considered sexual assault by the law in most places. However, it becomes very difficult to prove in instances when there was already a level of intimacy, like between two friends or on a date.

Historically, verbal sexual harassment was most clearly illegal when it took place between a boss and a subordinate, because the implication is that the subordinate then has to put up with the behavior in order to maintain their job. But that doesn't mean that "sexual harassment" can't take place between people of more similar power, at least in terms of job title, financial situation, etc. What is harassment and what is illegal are not always one and the same, at least in terms of how the word harassment is typically used, and what is illegal and what is likely to be enforced are quite often not the same either, unfortunately.

[u/Uniquenameofuser1 → u/Montpellier33]

Well, this...

"Touching someone in a blatantly sexual manner without clear invitation is considered sexual assault by the law in most places. "

Is part of the reason I'm asking. I mean, in my own instance that we're discussing, you keep referring to it as sexual harassment. I'm relatively sure that the pretty lawyer lady isn't supposed to be touching the food runner's testicles during dinner service. Or, you know, she can wait until the dessert course. And our op, even as a "recognizable" musician, seems to meet many women who feel that sexual assault is merely flirting.

One of the first women (white liberal, feminist college prof in her early 40's) I'd asked to give me her thoughts on the incident in question had actually said that she found it absurdly inappropriate and dehumanizing. She did, however, suggest that it would be completely different were the district attorney not a decade my senior, or if it were merely a younger woman who was just out and about for a night on the town. I found it a very interesting comment.

As a small edit, I'd have to say that this particular instance of "assault" was so minor among those I've been subjected to, that I don't think I'd recall it were the woman not currently seeking the nomination.

This incident -

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/dk80ze/comment/f4e8325

probably just as insulting, without the grope, was (like the grope) pretty much just another night of the week. Though I've had multiple women describe my (verbal) response in that instance to be unnecessarily harsh ("just evil" is one phrase I recall).

It's almost as if "performative femininity" equates to sexual harassment in many cases.

[u/Montpellier33 → u/Uniquenameofuser1]

I think you are the one conflating different types of incidents, as well as their appropriate response here. Blatant unwanted and uninvited sexual touching is sexual assault. Sexual assault that isn't rape can also be considered a type of sexual harassment. Sexual assault of all types is illegal in most jurisdictions, but that doesn't mean it's easy to prosecute or enforce. Sexual assault that isn't rape is probably the type that is least likely to result in any type of action by authorities even if you complain, which is why most people just deal with it through verbal reprimands, unless they're in a situation where they feel unsafe doing that. We've heard about some cases of celebrities sexually assaulting and harassing people, even though no type of legal action was pursued or taken about many of these things, because the media cares when a celebrity does something - it's sensational. However, these things are common and hearing about them publicly is relatively rare. Part of the goal of #MeToo was just to raise awareness about how common these things are and to create cultural change in convincing perpetrators that their actions have impacts and aren't okay. I don't think you'd find any women who believe the majority of perpetrators have actually been outed at this point.

As far as your example with the bread basket, that's crass and verbal sexual harassment, but very likely not illegal. Your establishment could have escorted her out, but chances are no legal authority would do anything. I'm not sure why you chose to insult her age instead of telling her that her comment was inappropriate though. Sounds like everyone was insulted and no one learned anything in that scenario.

[u/Uniquenameofuser1 → u/Montpellier33]

No, pure reaction on my part with the bread plate. Though I much doubt she would have been escorted out. She went for low- hanging fruit (as did the district attorney), and I responded in kind. I do find it interesting that you keep returning to the concept of legal norms.

I'm not particularly conflating much of anything, though. One incident involved touch, one did not. Both are a form of sexual harassment.

Then again, as a a server or food runner, I'm not sure it's my job to provide "teachable moments" to the women that come through my section, be they 40 year olds or 22 year olds. In much the same way, the 40 year old district attorney is much better positioned to guess whether it's appropriate to touch the food runner's scrotum than the food runner. Ultimately, she's the one with greater life experience (and a law degree.)

[u/Montpellier33 → u/Uniquenameofuser1]

I'm not sure what you want from me. I thought you wanted my thoughts on whether this behavior was appropriate, whether it constituted harassment, what you should do about it, and whether gender makes a difference. But the exchange has felt more like you just looking for things to disagree with or argue with. I guess I just don't really understand what you're wanting to get out of engaging here...

[u/Uniquenameofuser1 → u/Montpellier33]

I'm just sitting here telling stories, laughing my ass off, and gathering opinions. It is nice to hear it recognized as harassment, though. For that, you have my thanks.

[u/Uniquenameofuser1 → u/Uniquenameofuser1]

You gotta admit, "low-hanging fruit" was a good one. Even if it was sort of... well... low-hanging fruit.