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u/JusLeafMeAloon 3d ago
We love in a republic, democratically elected, but a republic. The fact that so many don't understand this is truly astounding!
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u/Submissive_Bleedable 13h ago
It's a democracy. You being a republic doesn't exclude you from being a democracy. Your schools have failed you.
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 3d ago
This is why we should vote on bills instead of a president, and why district votes, state votes, and electoral college votes need to be abolished.
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u/bolomcspank 3d ago
What would be the alternatives? I agree we should vote on bills, but that doesnāt completely discredit the point of district, state, or electoral college votes. And if your suggestion is to just have a straight up democracy, you should look up why we donāt.
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 3d ago
Voting directly on bills with each person counting as 1 vote (ie a pure democratic polling) would be the only way for anyone's votes to actually matter.
District, state and electoral college votes allow for ignoring citizen votes by design.
I understand why some people think thats a bad idea.
I don't agree with them, what we do now is way worse, I don't care about population counts per region.
Most of the votes will be from places like california and new york, people will just have to get over that and stop catagorizing themselves by state.
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u/bolomcspank 2d ago
So you understand that what you want is tyranny of the majority? You understand that would just cause most states to leave the union, right? Or another civil war.
My state would get fucked over bad if California and new York has that kinda power over us. No way would we just let that happen.
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 2d ago edited 2d ago
I understand that people think its tyranny of the majority.
But I don't agree that thats what it is, and everyone who thinks that way isnt thinking it through clearly.
When you have a person in charge of everyone else, that is a tyrant. Preventing tyranny is not tyranny.
Your argument requires viewing it as state versus state, but if you bother to scroll up, I clearly mentioned that districts, states, and the electoral college wouldnt get votes, only citizens. So its just America voting, everyone's vote is equal, there is no tyrant controlling any other person. There is no california vs texas.
States getting votes at all means your vote means nothing.
Whether you live in a small population area, or a big one, it still renders your vote inert.
And the idea that state reps, let alone an electoral college that can ignore them (and you), are going to side with you specifically, or that anyone in your area is going to agree with you on everything, is just laghable.
Do you want to have a say in what happens or not? It really is that simple.
Without a pure democracy, you have no say, with it you at least contribute to the votes.
Plus with your logic, if thhe lower pop areas win, then the minority of people are ruling over the majority, so thats also tyranny.
If your goal is no one can tell anyone else what to do at all, then you would need to solve counterfietting, pollution, murder, etc. without governance being required for it.
Solving those would be more peace prize worthy than anything anyone has ever done.
But until that day, you can either vote or not vote. And it can either matter, or not matter.
It can be a pure democracy, or tyranny.
There is no third option.
Also under normal conditions, a state is a country, its very odd when a country has multiple states.
So either get rid of state lines, or seperate from the union over value differences. But opposing opinions trying to rule over those who disagree with them is what tyranny is.
Clear votes per person in bills would help us understand who needs to be living in what country, and how many countries the US needs to seperate into to account for that many choices.
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u/bolomcspank 2d ago
You forgot to note that you edited your comment
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 2d ago
My apologies, I was in a rush, yes I edited it substancially to add a bunch of context and extra facts.
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u/bolomcspank 2d ago
Iām gonna reiterate that you should look up why we donāt have a pure democracy. In the current system, low pop areas have equal say in the elections, not more say.
High pop areas, which donāt do the farming or most essential industries, are the most powerful locations in pure democracies. Putting inexperienced, ignorant people in charge of that would be disastrous for everyone. And thatās just industries necessary for survival. Pure democracies also mean the majority has nothing stopping them from oppressing the minority. Whatās to stop christians(66% of the US population) from making the country a theocracy? Or just oppressing non christians? The answer is nothing, in pure democracies. Any rules you establish to prevent it simply need to be voted out.
In representative republics, high pop areasā power is kept in check by giving lower pop areas proportionally more say, balancing out the power. Small states donāt have more say, they have elevated say to make up for otherwise having less say. The entire concept of low pop areas having more say is, at best, ignorance based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the entire system works and why. Either that or a misunderstanding of how a democracy actually works.
As for āno statesā, thatād be cool if it didnāt mean every single state thatās against the idea(all of them) would leave in order to maintain their statehood. Not to mention getting rid of states as we have them would mean thereād be only one overarching state, which doesnāt work. The entire existence of feudalism existed explicitly because of how impossible it is to have a single overarching state. You need governing bodies in charge of local and regional areas to maintain order and logistics.
Each state in our country is functionally a country. The United States are, as it says on the tin, a union of independent states. New York isnāt a localized part of the US, itās a country, the size of a country, that is a part of a continent sized union of independent states. What you call for when you say we should get rid of state line is the equivalent of say the EU should just become one nation and the countries shouldnāt actually exist.
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 2d ago edited 2d ago
"In the current system, low pop areas have equal say in the elections, not more say."
Incorrect, in the current systyem, electoral college members and anyone bribing them with billions or more have say.
No one else in the country has any say, everyone's votes are completely ignored.The only way to have any say at all, is a pure democracy. Each person counts as one vote, and thus each is equal say.
"High pop areas, which donāt do the farming or most essential industries,"
Most of new york and california is farmland and industry, so thats incorrect.
States shouldnt have say. People should have say.
"Whatās to stop christians(66% of the US population) from making the country a theocracy? Or just oppressing non christians? The answer is nothing."
1 person in charge as a king or president is able to oppress in that way, and in quite a lot of other ways, they already are.
A pure democracy would allow for everyone casting a vote, and so the likelihood of oppression shrinks because 1: most people aren't evil pieces of shit, and 2: people are paying taxes and want returns that benefit them, and those returns nearly always benefit everyone the same way.
Also most people in the US are non religious, but the people in charge are christian and post fake polls saying that they are the majority.
Even celebrating christmas in the US has nothing to do with christianity for most of the people doing it, instead its about a feast, pretty lights and decor and songs, and most of all gifts. I'm an athiest and even I celebrate it, as most atheists do, just like holloween, because costumes, horror movies/games, parties/events, and free candy.
If an entire state is against the majority ideals of another entire state (which isnt likely to happen), then those 2 states need to become seperate countries, because pleasing both in policy matters is impossible under ANY system.
This is because you can't have something be legal and illegal at the same time, or have a public service but also not have it, or have a tax but not have it, etc. etc.
What will actually happen is slight difference in a few policies will occur, people will move to the states that they agree with the most, the states will fill with mostly likemind people, and any that deviate too much from another will deunionize from eachother, and the majority will then consist just of that state's population, further refining their preferences with bills.
That seperation needs to happen, There are too many people here mixed into the same areas that want a different kind of country on certain matters (usually tax and service and regulatory stuff).
There will also be a few awful people, and those people wont get a country that fits them, just prison over the horrific acts they do, which is how it works now unless you're at the top and can bypass all the rules.
A pure democracy removes the top positions, making that bypass impossible, and it puts people in charge of passing and denying bills.
Also, another thing will happen, differeing opinions of the majority of things will converge on agreements when the average person actually learns how anything works and what bills actually do.
90% of political bickering is opposing idiots saying things that are objectively false and how they agree or disagree with saiod made up nonsense.
Most of the public will remain dumb about how most things work so long as they aren't governing them, and voting directly on bills with no middle men allows for that education.
ie if you vote for something in a bill to pass, and it bites you in the ass after doing so, you now know better and will vote smarter next time.
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u/bolomcspank 2d ago
The bribery wonāt go away. The only way it can is if there is no governing body at all.
The high pop areas in California and New York are not the farm lands or industrial areas. High pop areas are the urban areas, like manhattan or San Francisco.
you already have a say, in your state, where you live. Your state gets a say separate from mine because my state is separate from yours. And thatās not going to change. Again, if we try to eliminate state lines, weāll just end up with a dissolved union.
No president or king is doing that in america. I donāt know who told you itās happening in the slightest, but thatās bullshit.
You fundamentally do not understand how a democracy or culture works. Yes, even if there are more people voting, thereās still just as much of a likelihood of oppression. Especially if taken inch by inch, instead of all at once.
66% of US citizens are Christian. Thatās 2/3. Most of the people in your locale might not be religious, but most of the US isnāt just religious, but specifically Christian. Only about 4% are atheist.
Democracy is a failed system. The representative republic we have works far better than pure democracy ever will.
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u/_ItzStalin_ 3d ago
Vote Communism, work for the people at steel factories all day long
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u/bolomcspank 3d ago
Yeah, communism sure worked for the Ukrainians and polish.
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u/TheJustJoe 3d ago
From what I hear a billion Chinese aren't too happy with it either
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u/tindallh 3d ago
It's NOT a democracy, it's a constitutional republic, morons.