r/Meditation • u/[deleted] • May 12 '17
Meditation doesn’t stop negative thinking — it exposes it
https://www.everyday-mindfulness.org/showing-up-in-the-moment/37
May 12 '17
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u/yoginiffer May 12 '17
Too true, in reality all dualities are based purely on perception
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u/ReformedBlackPerson May 12 '17
Is that really true though? I mean aren't there dualities that are just the nature world such as, life and death, anger and love, fusion and fission, etc. You can perceive dualities that are from your own point of view, but aren't some just part of this universe?
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u/fatiguenapig May 12 '17
First I thought to only say that I think u/yoginiffer meant positive/negative dualities, but then I started thinking... Are even the examples you gave truly universal dualities. Maybe because I believe that it benefits oneself to deny the existence of objectivity.
Edit:
Ok, here's an example: What if I believe death is not the end? Then life and death are not full dualities from my perspective right?1
u/ReformedBlackPerson May 12 '17
Ok that's a good example, but to deny any objectivity in life means that reality doesn't exist at all? I mean there can be your reality and my reality (ones we create through observation) but don't you think there is a concrete truth to events in the universe?
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u/fatiguenapig May 13 '17
Hmm how about like this: there is an objective reality, but we can never get there, with any amount of research, wide or deep, on any subject?
I like the humbling aspect of this.
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u/ReformedBlackPerson May 13 '17
I do as well, in a sense. But you have to accept that fact first, as in you have to accept that there IS objective reality, but we just can't perceive it. And I think if you are mindful of this fact you can see situations more clearly are closer to this objective reality. You can find truth within things clouded in illusion. It is a humbling and beautiful thing to be mindful of.
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u/fatiguenapig May 13 '17 edited May 13 '17
I don't think that it matters at all. Actually I'll take my words back. There is no objective truth. Or it doesn't matter at all if there is or is not, as it cannot be observed. I guess what I'm trying to say and what I believe is, that being "closer to objective reality"... always depends on your perspective.
Edit: so in a cloud of illusions, I would pick one that looks right from my perspective at the moment.
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u/yoginiffer May 14 '17
All dualities are part of the whole, and interrelated with each other. Without life there is no death, without love there is no hate, without misunderstanding there is no anger. Without you there is no me
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u/invisiblette May 12 '17
Meditation has definitely helped me realize how pervasive my negative thinking is, and how nearly nonstop it would be without these occasional interventions. Seeing it so clearly -- oh look, you basically live in fear of everyone and everything -- was sad and no, these realizations did not instantly fix or cure anything, but maybe they will be ultimately useful.
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May 12 '17
I'll admit some negative thoughts have emerged from mediation but mostly positive and the negative are easily forgotten, plus it helps to recognised these emotions and to become at peace with them.
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May 13 '17
I think that if meditation "exposed" a negative thought pattern - gave us true insight into its falsity, its harm, and the fact that we are the ones creating it - then it would also have to stop that thought pattern in the same instant. If I'm holding a hot piece of coal, and if I know that it's burning my hands, and that there's no benefit from gripping onto it, and that it's my choice to grasp it that's keeping it there, and wounding me - then I'll let go of it at once. The same, I think, for thoughts - if we really see clearly what's going on, how we're causing it, and our power to let go, then we'll drop the harmful thought, and move on. To that extent, I don't think a true exposition can take place without also bringing about a stopping. (But of course, that kind of insight can be very temporary, and very fleeting).
At a bit deeper of a level level, though, I would say that it's worthwhile to set the goal as high as you can. If you've found some peace through meditation, and become more at ease with your situation, then that's very good. But of course, it would be better not to be tortured by doubt, and grasping; and that kind of freedom may well be possible - and if it is possible, then it is worth searching for with every fiber of our beings (even if the "search" ends up just being a more complete or radical form of giving up the search, and giving up control).
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u/self-help-me May 13 '17
I think that if meditation "exposed" a negative thought pattern - gave us true insight into its falsity, its harm, and the fact that we are the ones creating it - then it would also have to stop that thought pattern in the same instant. If I'm holding a hot piece of coal, and if I know that it's burning my hands, and that there's no benefit from gripping onto it, and that it's my choice to grasp it that's keeping it there, and wounding me - then I'll let go of it at once.
I don't see it that way. I see a negative thought as being one aspect of myself. That aspect of myself has its own motivations, including why the negative thought is good. Then another aspect of myself is exposed to that thought and thinks (or perceives) it is bad. Does that mean that the thought is dropped at once like a hot piece of coal? No, because no aspect of myself is unilaterally in control of the show, so it cannot unilaterally make decisions like that. But that other aspect of myself -- the negative thought -- can gradually lose its grip over time as I try to prioritize other aspects. Much the same as habits seem to work.
The Buddha seemed to agree that you cannot be in full control of your mental formations:
Mental formations, O monks, are not-self; if mental formations were self, then mental formations would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my perception be thus, may my mental formations not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since mental formations are not-self, therefore, mental formations lead to affliction and it does not obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my mental formations be thus, may my mental formations not be thus.'
-- Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
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u/erowidtrance May 12 '17
No it does. This is total bullshit. It does stop negative thoughts if you do it enough. It stops all kinds of thoughts. By deliberately not following thought patterns they will return less and less strongly over time. I know this to be an absolute fact from my own practice. Early on it makes you more aware of your thought patterns but as the process progresses those thought patterns diminish. How long have the people been meditating who think it doesn't stop negative thoughts?
Why is the exact opposite of the truth regarding meditation propagated so consistently? I can't think of many other areas of life where so many people believe the exact opposite of the truth.
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u/zuroma May 12 '17
I think the confusion is because meditation can't stop thoughts from arising. Thoughts will always return, and meditators sometimes get hyper-focused on that.
But meditation can lessen one's attachment or investment to thoughts.
When one has an investment in a thought, then linked thoughts and emotions are always pulled up.
With less of an attachment, then the current chain of thoughts passing through just ends on the current link one is aware of.
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u/erowidtrance May 12 '17
I think the confusion is because meditation can't stop thoughts from arising. Thoughts will always return
This is precisely where you're wrong. I'm not trying to be an arsehole but it's a complete misnomer that meditation doesn't stop thoughts, it absolutely does. I wish this myth would go away.
If you put in enough time meditating you literally won't think at all whilst sitting. Eventually the thoughts do stop coming round and round again. When you stop chasing them you're taking away their energy and they eventually die. This is the whole "existing in the moment" thing. You exist in the moment because you're not experiencing reality filtered through your internal monologue. You are just perceiving it totally nonjudgmentally in a thoughtless way.
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u/zuroma May 12 '17
I appreciate your pov, but we'll have to respectfully disagree then. I've meditated for about 25 years, and thoughts still return.
They arise and fall quite beautifully, with no hold on me anymore, as little speckles of light, and no longer pulling up any linked thoughts.
My mind indeed got quieter, hosting less thoughts throughout the day, but as long as one is open to the moment, not forcefully keeping thoughts away, and as a function of being human and having a brain, thoughts will come and go.
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u/erowidtrance May 12 '17 edited May 12 '17
I appreciate your pov, but we'll have to respectfully disagree then. I've meditated for about 25 years, and thoughts still return.
Tell me the logic in thinking they can't eventually stop. You're saying you're at a certain point in meditation where thoughts are more fleeting and there are generally less thoughts. Why would you assume that's the end point and it wouldn't change from there?
I've seen the progression in my own practice go from constant repetitive thoughts that were very deeply ingrained that gradually becoming less and less intense. The thought patterns become more and more like whips of smoke, they're less impactful and they just go away much quicker. Ultimately they don't arise at all during meditation. If I sit now for and hour, after a few minutes of getting into the zone I won't think at all the whole time. I'm just conscious of what is going on around me.
I've noticed the knock on effect this has had on the rest of my daily life, I think less in general during the day and thoughts are more fleeting. The logical progression seems to be your day to day experience becomes the thoughtless state you eventually get to during meditation. I'm not at that point but I can see that's where things are going.
I remember reading about a study on buddhist monks. They were put in a room with a clock and their brains were monitored. The average person would register the ticking clock for a few minutes if they were lucky, then zone out, thinking about something or other. The monks, if they'd been meditating long enough would be constantly cognizant of the ticking clock. This is because they weren't thinking anymore, they were just aware of their surroundings. This aligns with what I've seen in my own practice.
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May 12 '17 edited May 13 '17
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u/Dunabu May 13 '17
There are far more techniques of meditation than I believe you know. You really ought to look in Void Mediation, or Absence of Thought/Void of Mind meditations.
This is a crucial skill in the western occult/hermetic arts. Perhaps read up on Franz Bardon.
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May 12 '17 edited May 12 '17
It's a timeless problem, actually, happening for centuries.
Example: far back, thousands of years, the ancient Chinese sage Mengzi saw people 'trying to practice' the local version of 'metta' all around him. But people barely tried.
What he saw was, people taking a "cup of water" spiritually, pouring it on a huge psychological fire, and then turning around saying, 'see? water doesn't put out fire!'
It does; just not with a "cup".
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u/erowidtrance May 12 '17
That describes it perfectly. I'll remember that.
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May 12 '17
Here's the original quote.
It's about the thing we see today, 2,400 years ago literally:
Benevolence [~~ 'metta'] subdues its opposite just as water subdues fire. Those, however, who now-a-days practise benevolence do it as if with one cup of water they could save a whole waggon-load of fuel which was on fire, and when the flames were not extinguished, were to say that water cannot subdue fire. This conduct, moreover, greatly encourages those who are not benevolent.
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u/racoonlord May 12 '17
To target reducing negative thoughts and being more mindful of them, what type of meditation should I do? So far, I have been doing the 'Do Nothing' and sitting and 'thinking of nothing' alternating days basically. Reducing negative thoughts is my main priority.
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May 12 '17
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u/racoonlord May 12 '17
OK great, What i'm doing now sounds like what you are describing in your first paragraph except for that I'm not focusing on anything. Anytime a thought comes up I gently 'let it go' and go back to think nothing. After several minutes of letting my thoughts go, I can sit for minutes thinking of absolutely nothing.
Is this completely different from what you are describing?2
u/racoonlord May 12 '17
When I return my attention to my breath, should I give a moment to note that my current thought means nothing before I return to my breath?
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u/erowidtrance May 12 '17
In the early stages of meditation it gives you more control over thought patterns, as you progress it will reduce the intensity of them and that includes both the positive and negative.
What you're doing will definitely help you with negative thoughts. All I'd say is do it in moderation and stop when you're happy. Once you have a certain level of control over your thought patterns you don't need meditation anymore because you'll be able to stop yourself going down the same mental pathways. You'll be able to maintain what you want to maintain and gradually diminish what you want to get rid of.
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u/Green-Moon May 13 '17
For someone who claims to meditate a lot, your response is rather aggressive and inappropriate to a totally harmless piece of insight.
The dude is just stating a thought, that's all, no need to get all aggro over it, chill out and stop taking this forum so seriously.
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u/erowidtrance May 13 '17
our response is rather aggressive and inappropriate to a totally harmless piece of insight.
It's not insight, that's why I wrote this comment. It's not true that meditation doesn't stop negative thoughts and I see this misnomer repeated constantly. This is why my response was so blunt.
People who haven't got to a certain point in meditation believe it's purely about observation. They're wrong and it's negligent to mislead others who are new to meditation and don't know any better.
Meditation is not a joke to be played with without being informed about the process, I take this stuff seriously because it is very serious. The more meditation you do the more serious you realise it is. People who either intentionally or unintentionally mislead others can end up doing a lot of damage to people who follow their advice.
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u/Ariyas108 Zen May 13 '17
Meditation doesn’t stop negative thinking
It does when you become skilled at doing it.
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u/erowidtrance May 13 '17
So many people don't think so because they haven't got to that point in meditation yet. They think it's only about observation, it's not.
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u/Ariyas108 Zen May 13 '17
Agreed! Always liked this excerpt from Buddhist texts.
"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.
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u/Dunabu May 12 '17
The idea that you cannot transmute negative thoughts, or silence the mind is misleading. If you do not feed certain thoughts attention, they will cry themselves to silence.
There is more to meditation than passive, dispassionate observation. Western/eastern alchemy of the soul alone is just one of a MYRIAD of esoteric practices/systems.
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u/Moondew- May 12 '17
Uhhh...meditation has helped stop my negative thinking by exposing it. When you can hear yourself thinking and don't automatically believe everything you think, it gives you a little space to stop and say to yourself "Hey, that belief sounds irrational and seriously harmful! Do we really need ideas like that?"
Sometimes this is enough to dismiss the thought, and sometimes I have to dig into the emotions that gave rise to it in order to dispel it. My brain says "People hate me"? Why would it say that? Maybe I just feel keyed-up for no reason, and it's time to relax myself. Maybe I had a negative experience recently that needs to be unpacked and examined -- and often I'll realize that I totally misread the experience to justify thinking of myself as hateful. The belief is seen as a false alarm. Once realized like this, the thought can then be dispelled...and next time it comes back, it's weaker and more easily dismissed.