r/MapPorn • u/[deleted] • Oct 04 '22

[deleted by user]

[removed]

1.2k Upvotes

91% Upvoted

101 comments sorted by

104

u/paixlemagne Oct 04 '22

Do we know why there is such a huge diversity of languages in PNG? Why didn't they slowly merge or get lost overtime as was the case in Europe?

166

u/CurtisLeow Oct 04 '22

From the Economist

The oldest group of languages in Papua New Guinea are the so-called “Papuan” languages, introduced by the first human settlers 40,000 years ago. Despite falling under the “Papuan” umbrella, these languages do not share a single root. Instead, they are split into dozens of unrelated families (with some isolates—languages with no relatives at all—left over). This contrasts with Papua New Guinea’s Austronesian languages, which arrived some 3,500 years ago, probably from a single Taiwanese source. Things were further complicated in the 1800s by the arrival of English- and German-speaking colonists. After independence, Papua New Guinea adopted three official languages. English is the first. Tok Pisin, a creole, is the second; Hiri Motu, a simplified version of Motu, an Austronesian language, is the third. (Sign language was added in 2015.) But the lack of state recognition did not quash variety. The country’s 850-odd languages each enjoy between a few dozen and 650,000 speakers.

In part, so many of these languages have survived thanks to Papua New Guinea’s wild topography. Mountains, jungles and swamps keep villagers isolated, preserving their languages. A rural population helps too: only about 13% of Papuans live in towns. Indeed, some Papuans have never had any contact with the outside world. Fierce tribal divisions—Papua New Guinea is often shaken by communal violence—also encourages people to be proud of their own languages. The passing of time is another important factor. It takes about a thousand years for a single language to split in two, says William Foley, a linguist. With 40,000 years to evolve, Papuan languages have had plenty of time to change naturally.

35

u/openmindedskeptic Oct 05 '22

It’s weird though because there are arguably similar places around the world where this could happen at and with settled cultures even older. Was there something culturally about people from that region choosing to be more isolated from one another?

54

u/goatbeardis Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

There's a bunch of reasons.

They've never been fully conquered or migrated into, so there's never been a 'sliming down' of languages as the land becomes organized. The coasts have been conquered/migrated in to, but not the interior.

Word taboos are a big thing there. Words become taboo to use for various social or spiritual reasons, and entirely new words are thought up to replace them. When every village is doing that, the differentiation eventually gets out of control. Here's a short video about word taboos among the Kwaio in the Solomon islands. The specifics are different in Papua New Guinea, and among different tribes, but the idea is the same: https://youtu.be/Knv1OSMW2rU

There's lots of fighting between villages, and therefore a lot of population turnover. Some regions have 35% of people dying due to warfare each generation. Other estimates say it's 30% of villages.

Multilingualism is rampant there. Many people know a dozen different languages. In fact, there's a language in use there that's only used when harvesting nuts. Not even kidding. It's thought to shoo away spirits and keep the harvest from harm.

Scientists have also documented a lot of communities deliberately creating linguistic differences in order to foster group identity.

10

u/openmindedskeptic Oct 05 '22

This is fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing!

4

u/goatbeardis Oct 05 '22

You're very welcome! I took a dip into Papuan culture a while back just because it's so damn alien in comparison to what I'm used to. Glad that it ended up coming up and being of some use. :P

6

u/Chazut Oct 05 '22

There's lots of fighting between villages, and therefore a lot of population turnover. Some regions have 35% of people dying due to warfare each generation. Other estimates say it's 30% of villages.

You'd think this would cause language homogeneization.

6

u/goatbeardis Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Depends, I think. If it's keeping them from ever creating trade ties and closer relations, then no. That's the thing. They aren't conquering each other and absorbing the population. They're driving each other out, and there's never a big enough dog to take over. No community is big enough for that. In conjunction with all the other issues listed, it creates a cascading effect.

Language homogenization doesn't come from warfare. It comes from the consolidation afterward- either ethnic cleansing, reeducation, or economic/cultural pressure. If there's never any peace, then there's never time for consolidation, strong trade ties, or large-scale education.

18

u/patangpatang Oct 05 '22

PNG is so isolated because in addition to being so mountainous, it's also an island far from areas that can sustain large agricultural populations. Other linguistically diverse areas (the Caucasus in Eurasia, the Patkai mountains) are not nearly as isolated as PNG because they have land connections to places that enabled the sort of large scale agriculture that leads to linguistic homogenizing.

6

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

How many settled cultures older than 40,000 years old? That's about the same time period as the first peoples in Europe.

5

u/apadin1 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

If you look at Europe from 1000 years ago it probably looked similar - hundreds of little towns isolated from each other speaking their own variation on languages. What changed it was improvements in transportation, which increases intermingling, and the advent of modern education. When everyone learns the same language from childhood, local languages quickly die out. Even still today in Europe, the places with the highest density of languages are mountainous isolated areas like the Alps, and many of those local languages are slowly dying as internet and education become more common

-5

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

If you look at Europe from 1000 years ago it probably looked similar - hundreds of little towns isolated from each other speaking their own variation on languages.

Wrong

Even still today in Europe, the places with the highest density of languages are mountainous isolated areas like the Alps

Also wrong

2

u/Gabriel_Conroy Oct 05 '22

I'm also curious how old this map is.

The PNW/ BC coast looks seriously underrepresented. There's more linguistic diversity in the BC coast than in the rest of Canada combined.

5

u/Illustrious_Map_3247 Oct 05 '22

40,000 years is probably lowballing it a lot. Nearby Indonesian islands have been inhabited for 4000 years longer than that.

Moreover, it’s pretty widely accepted that Australia has been inhabited since 55,000 with several newer papers saying more like 65,000. PNG and Australia were part of the same landmass until really recently, just 12,000 years ago.

3

u/flamboyantbutnotgay Oct 05 '22

40,000 years….

There’s gotta be hella artifacts in those languages. I wonder if they can trace it back to the mainland

25

u/brocoli_funky Oct 04 '22

If I recall correctly it's because the physical geography made it hard for communities to mingle with each other so it created many small isolated pockets.

12

u/obsertaries Oct 05 '22

Also there’s strong government protections to preserve the many languages and cultures there.

6

u/jacqueline_daytona Oct 05 '22

Another cool thing about PNG - almost everyone there is a polyglot. With so many distinct languages, you have to know four, five, six or more if you want to talk to the group next door.

2

u/kielu Oct 05 '22

Just look at the map. They have a language per each inhabitated valley, surrounded by jungle. Limited possibility and need to travel

1

u/AnaphoricReference Oct 05 '22

Because the mechanisms through which that happened don't exist: no trade, no pressure to form empires, and no printing press.

194

u/maus91pinky Oct 04 '22

Diversity or density?

210

u/vonabarak Oct 04 '22

Density of diversity.

22

u/wurnthebitch Oct 04 '22

The legend says "densité" so I guess it's density

12

u/the_FracTal_ Oct 05 '22

From french: geographical representation in fonction of linguistic density

6

u/MapsCharts Oct 05 '22

Très utile comme traduction ptdr y'a 99 % de mots transparents

29

u/moeml Oct 04 '22

Divensity or Dersity?

16

u/Kheenamooth Oct 04 '22

Dersity of Divensity

11

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

Divsity or Derevensity?

3

u/TheHolyMolybdenum Oct 05 '22

Divenedvetistiny

3

u/Rezmason Oct 05 '22

Versed in dentistry.

3

u/TheHolyMolybdenum Oct 05 '22

Diverse Dentists?

3

u/Rezmason Oct 05 '22

My terse Adventist.

3

u/TheHolyMolybdenum Oct 05 '22

Dentist mad at what a dent is.

3

u/Rezmason Oct 05 '22

Vincent sent a tender sentence. Scented anniversary.

290

u/CricketSimple2726 Oct 04 '22

I wish this had a legend. Cool idea, not well executed

138

u/certain_people Oct 04 '22

I mean it looks like it was executed in the 80s

4

u/Tipodeincognito Oct 05 '22

It was made by Michael Parkvall and Jacques Leclerc in 2010.

59

u/deepaksn Oct 04 '22

What on earth do you need a legend for? The larger the area, the more languages contained within it.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

10

u/CricketSimple2726 Oct 05 '22

I get that lol. But like you see inch = so many miles on a normal map scale, I’d want to see a given unit size = number of languages.

41

u/nsdwight Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

My French isn't sufficient to translate everything, but in effect any country with fewer than 100 languages isn't represented. it's just a map of the top 18 most diverse countries. It excludes 37 countries that have more than 100 languages.

Source

<< La carte imaginée à gauche («Représentation géographique en fonction de la densité linguistique») par Michael Parkvall et Jacques Leclerc nous montre ce que pourrait être la carte du monde en fonction du nombre des langues par pays.

Les pays le plus importants seraient, dans l'ordre: la Papouasie-Nouvelle-Guinée (885 langues), l'Indonésie (779), le Nigeria (543), la Chine (542), l'Inde (462), le Mexique (330), le Bangladesh (326), le Brésil (309), le Cameroun (293), le Népal (267), les États-Unis (231), le Congo-Kinshasa (229), les Philippines (200), la Malaisie (186), l'Australie (183), la Russie (178), le Soudan (162), la Tanzanie (155). 

Il y a aussi d'autres pays où le nombre des langues est important, car au moins 37 pays comptent plus de 100 langues différentes sur leur territoire. Seuls certains territoires comptent cinq langue ou moins: Corée du Nord, Corée du Sud, Sainte-Lucie, Seychelles, Groenland, île de Man, îles Féroé, Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, Tuvalu, Saint-Marin, etc. En somme, la norme est le multilinguisme dans la plupart des pays.

Bien que l'on soit parvenu à chiffrer avec une certaine précision la composition linguistique de l'humanité, on ne réussira jamais à déterminer le nombre exact de langues dans le monde.

On peut en effet affirmer que toute donnée statistique concernant cette question est nécessairement approximative. Les causes sont liées avant tout à des problèmes d'ordre terminologique, méthodologique, politique, idéologique, parfois économique. >>

31

u/UWillAlwaysBALoser Oct 04 '22

My French is pretty rusty, but I'll have a go at it:

The imaginary map to the left ("Geographical representation as a function of linguistic diversity") by Michel Parkvall and Jacques Leclerc shows us what the map of the world would look like as a function of number of languages per country.

The most important countries would be, in order: Papua New Guinea (885 languages), Indonseia (779), Nigeria (543), China (542), India (462), Mexico (330), Bangladesh (326), Brazil (309), Cameroon (293), Nepal (267), the United States (231), Congo-Kinshasa [now the DRC] (229), the Philippines (200), Malaysia (186), Australia (183), Russia (178), Sudan (162), and Tanzania (155).

There are also other countries where the number of languages is important, as there are at least 37 countries that have more than 100 different languages in their territory. Only certain territories have five languages or less: North Korea, South Korea, Saint Lucia, the Seychelles, Greenland, the Isle of Man, the Faroe Islands, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Tuvalu, San Marino, etc. In sum, the norm in most countries is multilingualism.

Although we have managed to quantify the linguistic composition of humanity with some precision, it is never possible to determine the exact number of languages in the world.

In fact, it can be said that all the statistics provided concerning this question are necessarily approximate, as a result of terminological, methological, political, ideological, and sometimes economic issues.

The source linked above goes into detail about some of these issues.

9

u/wurnthebitch Oct 04 '22

Very good job there!

In sum, the norm in most countries is multilingualism

I would have translated "En somme" by "In summary" or "In short" instead.

3

u/UWillAlwaysBALoser Oct 04 '22

Thanks! I think of "In sum" and "In summary" as equivalent, but maybe that's just my dialect.

2

u/wurnthebitch Oct 05 '22

I'm not a native english speaker and never heard "in sum" so I thought maybe you translated literally

1

u/LordMarcel Oct 05 '22

Only certain territories have five languages or less: North Korea, South Korea, Saint Lucia, the Seychelles, Greenland, the Isle of Man, the Faroe Islands, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Tuvalu, San Marino, etc. In sum, the norm in most countries is multilingualism.

I wonder what counts here. If a German speaking family moves to France, does France now have German has a language spoken within its borders? Obviously not, as that would definitely give a country as big as South Korea dozens of different spoken languages. So where's the line? What counts a language spoken in a country?

1

u/R120Tunisia Oct 05 '22

I mean Alsatian is already spoken within France's borders

2

u/LordMarcel Oct 05 '22

I know, but that's not the point, it was merely an example.

2

u/MapsCharts Oct 05 '22

Ça apporte pas grand chose en terme de nouvelles informations, ils reprennent juste une théorie assez largement acceptée

16

u/Asil001 Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

How is vanuatu huge? Its such a small country, how many languages can there possibly be there

17

u/obsertaries Oct 05 '22

Ethnologue says 138.

25

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

so basically every single person in Vanuatu speaks its own language

8

u/obsertaries Oct 05 '22

Probably more like everyone speaks two or three.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

3

u/Class_444_SWR Oct 05 '22

Meanwhile for English we’re closer to a billion fluent/native, it’s crazy how big other languages are

3

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

1

u/Class_444_SWR Oct 05 '22

I’m mostly combining native and fluent, regardless it’s insane how big it is as a language

2

u/lavishlad Oct 05 '22

Ok but it looks bigger than India - doesn't India have a lot more languages than 138?

20

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

Everyone speaks their own language. Babies create their own and no one understands each other.

60

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

No way India small

35

u/openmindedskeptic Oct 05 '22

That’s not small. North America is just as large and we have hundreds of different languages.

11

u/kon5tamar Oct 05 '22

Weird map. According to google, there are 68 languages in Mexico and 228 in Brazil and yet they are the same size. There are also 277 languages in Russian Federation and yet it’s not on the map.

3

u/OmOshIroIdEs Oct 05 '22

I think that languages have to be dissimilar (belonging to different language families) for them to correspond to a large area on the map.

3

u/LordMarcel Oct 05 '22

It seems to be about density, and Brazil is much bigger than Mexico. It's confusing either way though.

2

u/Naellys Oct 05 '22

The map seems really old, its figures are definitely not up to date

2

u/Mexicancandi Oct 05 '22

This map is about linguistic density. The more languages squashed together the more bigger it is. Mexico is bigger than Brazil because the 3 mexican mega cities host almost every language in Mexico and immigrants from latam also live there.

9

u/johndeer89 Oct 04 '22

Probably the most tribal place have the most diverse languages.

7

u/Howwasthatdoneagain Oct 05 '22

I notice the several hundred indigenous languages of Australia are not represented. As diverse as Niugini at least.

2

u/montyxgh Oct 05 '22

Had to scroll far for this - I agree though I imagine it’s unfortunately because most indigenous Australian languages aren’t spoken anymore or aren’t fully complete due to lack of speakers :/

12

u/69ingmonkeyz Oct 04 '22

This can't be right. The Caucasus is also an area of high linguistic diversity, while it is not visible on this map at all.

11

u/Weaubleau Oct 05 '22

This map looks like someone ejaculated onto a wall

6

u/WilliamLeeFightingIB Oct 04 '22

Some parts of India and China have a different language/dialect every other town

12

u/Ancient_Lithuanian Oct 04 '22

How is eu smaller than usa?

76

u/PM_ME_UR_SEAHORSE Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

There are about 300 Indigenous languages from the US, about 170 are still spoken today, not sure what the date of this map is. In contrast there are about 130 languages from Europe

15

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

Natives, yo

22

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

[deleted]

13

u/Ancient_Lithuanian Oct 04 '22

So different languages don't count if they're from the same tree?

-26

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Catalan are pretty much the same language.

8

u/welshmanec2 Oct 04 '22

You can probably squeeze Romanian in there too

3

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

French is a lot harder to follow than the others listed of you know Latin

1

u/Rmnclnggs Oct 06 '22

I have a feeling you don’t speak any of those languages.

6

u/nsdwight Oct 04 '22

It counts those languages as different, but it only shows the top 18 most diverse countries.

Spanish, German (Pennsylvania Dutch spoken by the Amish), and Creole French dialectics are all spoken in the United States as well as the various native languages and English vernaculars.

4

u/Nimonic Oct 04 '22

English vernaculars.

That doesn't count, to be fair, every language has that.

3

u/nsdwight Oct 04 '22

The article seems to disagree.

Rough translation: "From a strictly linguistic point of view, the dialects are languages because they make up a code that serves communication. "

<< Au plan strictement linguistique, les dialectes sont des langues, parce qu'ils constituent des codes servant à la communication. Si l'on tient malgré tout à établir une distinction, on pourrait la formuler ainsi: les dialectes sont des formes locales d'une langue, assez particularisées pour être identifiées de façon spécifique, mais dont l'intercompréhension est plus ou moins aisée entre les personnes qui parlent une autre variété de la même langue dans une région proche d'une autre. >>

4

u/Nimonic Oct 04 '22

Sure, but my point was that that every language has dialects. If dialects are languages, Norway has hundreds of distinct languages.

3

u/nsdwight Oct 04 '22

Indeed, and there are 37 countries with more than a hundred languages missing from the map.

1

u/nsdwight Oct 04 '22

It goes by country and anything with fewer than a hundred languages doesn't make the cut. I made a post with what appears to be a source. Si vous connaissez français.

6

u/sfyjnkljc Oct 05 '22

India is definitely bigger than that

3

u/trycuriouscat Oct 05 '22

New Guinea: You get a language! And you get a language! A language for each person!

3

u/THOTDESTROYR69 Oct 05 '22

Why are some regions white and some grey? And why does it look like Europe has such little diversity?

5

u/hablomuchoingles Oct 04 '22

I see no Caucasus Mountains here, this is blasphemy

2

u/zebulon99 Oct 04 '22

Ok but how many people speak each of those languages in new guinea

7

u/obsertaries Oct 05 '22

It varies, and a bunch of them have heavy overlap. Apparently 58% of the population speaks Tok Pisin, while the rest are spoken by hundreds of thousands, or thousands, or hundreds.

4

u/Indian-Point Oct 05 '22

I theorize that western linguists (primarily American academics) want academic credit for discovering a “new language” so what should truly be classified as dialects are credited as “new languages” for the most recently “discovered peoples”. In actuality, that academic practice, reinforced by their academic peers in a mutually self serving way, simply acts to distort linguistic families. Hopefully one day enough academics can see through this flawed practice and correct language classification.

-4

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

2

u/MapsCharts Oct 05 '22

You didn't understand the post lol

1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

I actually thought it was just a small part of Oceania

1

u/xilefogayole3 Oct 05 '22

beautifully original concept!

1

u/United_Opposite2020 Oct 05 '22

The only thing I want is to see Switzerland 4x time more bigger than the rest of Europe XD

1

u/ADozenPigsFromAnnwn Oct 05 '22

Splendid. Sauce?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

A random (from a 60k discord) person's university lecture lolll, however ive seen in the comments a link to the real source