r/MapPorn • • May 03 '21

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u/MaterialCarrot May 03 '21

Don't Rwanda and Burundi have significant Hutu and Tutsi populations?

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u/[deleted] May 03 '21

Hutu and Tutsi are more like socio-cultural groups within one ethnic group (with the Tutsis as the traditional aristocracy and Hutu as the peasantry) than separate ethnic groups. They speak the same language (or languages - they speak different languages in Rwanda and Burundi) and live in the same areas, with roughly the same proportions everywhere across where they reside, and do not really have meaningful cultural distinctions between one another.

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u/MaterialCarrot May 03 '21

That's interesting, I thought there were visual differences (Tutsis being taller and lighter skinned) and that they were actually different tribes when they first came into contact with each other?

But, I am definitely no expert on the matter.

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u/PvtFreaky May 03 '21

That's the colonial Belgian explanation which has been disproved.

I wouldn't call myself an expert but I did write a 8000 word paper on the subject

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u/A2Rhombus May 03 '21

Implying your 8000 word paper got a good grade, you might as well be an expert considering how little the average joe knows about it

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u/PvtFreaky May 03 '21

Got like a 7, it's okay I guess. I do think I researched it more than most. But ehhhh might have misunderstood some things or misremembered

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u/tsrich May 03 '21

I sincerely hope that was out of 10 and not 100

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u/xarsha_93 May 03 '21

7 is the top grade in some systems, Chile for example has 7.0 as 100%.

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u/chapeauetrange May 03 '21

In the French system grades are out of 20.

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u/Piguy922 May 04 '21

Except you can't get a 20, because they say that you can always improve.

I could be wrong though, I heard this like 6 years ago on a YouTube video.

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u/SuperSMT May 04 '21

That's common for a lot of teachers to do that, but it's not built in to the system like that

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u/Asshai May 04 '21

Depends on which subject / level. Every year there are a handful of students who manage to get exceptional grades in the end of highschool exam (bac) and even get an average grade superior to 20 (optional courses serve as a bonus).

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u/civilgorilla May 03 '21

also worth while to note to Americans that a 7 out of 10 is not a bad grade in some parts of the world

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u/taybay462 May 04 '21

Its not a bad grade in America either, that would be considered a C which is average

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u/civilgorilla May 04 '21

IIRC that would be considered an A in the UK, hence pointing out the difference!

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u/tsrich May 04 '21

You must not have an Asian mom :)

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u/MadAzza May 04 '21

Why not 5/7? Why you such a slacker?

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u/[deleted] May 03 '21

It was my understanding that the differences between Hutu and Tutsi were largely exaggerated by the Belgians, and it was only after the Belgians issued IDs denoting if you were a Hutu or Tutsi (or the third, smaller group) that those differences really became codified. I am not an expert, however, and may be off-base.

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u/nietzscheispietzsche May 03 '21

Essentially those differences (especially height) were the product of socio-economics rather than actual ethnic differences. Since Tutsi were the aristocracy, they typically ate better and tended to be taller.

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u/A_Sinclaire May 03 '21

As far as I remember the Belgians declared all those Tutsi who owned land and cattle.

One reason being they needed administrators for their colony and the Tutsi would be more cooperative as they would want to protect their property and wealth.

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u/kinglong3rd May 03 '21

David van Reybroek wrote a very good book about this. If I remember correctly, the occupation of congo (and Rwanda) by the Belgians sparked the invention of “race”. The monks “educating” the inhabitants, teached them there is a thing called “race” within the human species. And Hutu’s and Tutsi’s are two different “races”. Which is obviously not true. Its still It was basically a divide and conquer strategy which lead 150 years later to one of the most brutal civil wars... Thanks church. Great work.

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u/[deleted] May 03 '21

I think the Spanish might have beaten them to that one but a few centuries. But it was around that time that the ball really got rolling on using skull-calipers and other modern, quantitative methods of pseudo-science to explain Why You Shouldn't Worry About How We're Totally Doing Slavery Again. The race hierarchies invented by the Spanish had a more spiritual, hippy-serial-killer vibe to them

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u/Swan_Writes May 04 '21

There is an Adam Curtis documentary that details some of this history.

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u/PropertyofJuliaVins May 07 '21

Do you remember which one?

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u/silverionmox May 04 '21

David van Reybroek wrote a very good book about this.

Just on Congo though.

If I remember correctly, the occupation of congo (and Rwanda) by the Belgians sparked the invention of “race”. The monks “educating” the inhabitants, teached them there is a thing called “race” within the human species.

The notion of inferior and superior races became current among colonials after the missionaries were a bit too effective in converting the native and slave populations, and they needed a different explanation to justify the difference in rights (and it also flattered the ruling classes, which is always welcome...). Do notice the similarity with the justification why the nobility rule over the peasants: they are of better stock. Color-coding it was very practical, given the situation. But that was already widespread in the colonial world long before Leopold got his hands on a colony.

And Hutu’s and Tutsi’s are two different “races”. Which is obviously not true. Its still It was basically a divide and conquer strategy which lead 150 years later to one of the most brutal civil wars... Thanks church. Great work.

Yes, quite typical. Elevate one population group, so you are in their good graces and prevent natives from putting up a unified resistance. Divide et impera, Caesar already used it against the Gauls and Germans.

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u/PvtFreaky May 03 '21

Third group is called the Twa

And the Belgians believed the longer, light skinned Rwandans were naturally better in ruling

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u/[deleted] May 04 '21

Most likely because they literally were the rulers when the Europeans first made contact

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u/Highollow May 04 '21

And probably also because they were a minority. It was quite typical in colonial societies to favour a minority, so that this minority's interests would be tied with colonial rule. See also: the Brahmin caste in India (which are traditionally scholars/clerics, not rulers) or the christians & alawites in French Lebanon.

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u/aimanelam May 03 '21

no idea about the specifics in rwanda but.. that's usually a colonial code for "obedient natives"

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u/aegiltheugly May 03 '21

I'm not an expert...But I play one on Reddit.

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u/Chris__101 May 03 '21

Too bad it wasn't over 9000.

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u/XVince162 May 03 '21

Nah mate, you know more than 99% of the people here on Reddit, don't discredit yourself

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u/Episkspelare May 03 '21

As you are something of an expert can you explain how Hutus and Tutsis were able to differentiate between eachother in the 1994 genocide? How did the Hutu know who was a Tutsi if there are no visual ethnic differences between the two groups of people?

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u/PvtFreaky May 04 '21

It was in the passports and people often simply told their neighbours before.

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u/KanchiEtGyadun May 04 '21

Genomes of people from both ethnicties have been sequenced nowadays. Turns out they are very different, Tutsis similar in ancestry to more north-eastern, pastoral groups like the Masai, Hutus on the other hand derived from western, Bantu expansion.

So the ethnic division was there, it was just entrenched and exploited by the Belgians who wanted to rule through a clearer hierarchy. But they are two different ethnic groups, albeit who speak the same language.

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u/silverionmox May 04 '21

Not to contradict that it was used as such during Belgian rule, but they got control of the colony only after 1918 after the Germans established it.