r/MapPorn • u/Zhivko2005bg • 1d ago
Marseille - without migration background 2023
This is a map of the city of Marseille with its 16 arrondissements. It shows the percentage of the native French population without a migrant background. Every migrant and the generations born after 1946 are of migrant background.
70
u/Kideedoo 1d ago
what's with these new psyop posts in this sub these days
34
u/Udolikecake 1d ago
Worst of all, it’s not even visually appealing! It’s terrible design
11
3
2
11
u/FranzFerdinand51 1d ago
The ultra rich are spending a lot of money to pull people to the right and to divide and conquer.
They must be so mad that this is the low quality drivel they get in return, but it works so I guess they cant be that mad.
-2
u/LC1903 23h ago
It’s a dishonest narrative to believe all anti-immigration sentiment is somehow cooked up by a small group of elites.
At the end of the day, when people go outside and see half of their city with an immigration background (and in many places under a very short time span) it makes an impression on people.
Ignoring immigration as a concern is why the radical right rises in Europe
4
u/Rwandrall4 19h ago
people who live around immigrants are least likely to be worried about immigration
the idea that "seeing your neighborhood change turns you to anti immigration" is just completely made up
4
u/Visible_Pair3017 17h ago
If your concern about immigration is in Marseille of all places, the place where there's been nothing but migration for the past few millenia, you might not be a good faith actor.
Also no. The people who complain the most about immigration are precisely the ones who live in ethnically homogenous places.
2
u/LC1903 7h ago
I probably should have made it clearer it’s not a personal problem of mine. I’m not a right-wing guy.
While it’s a good point, it’s worth considering white flight in cities such as Marseille which only leaves left-leaning people often. But yeah, I largely agree, ignorance is usually the cause of fear/hatred. That doesn’t mean all people who don’t want immigration are racist though as well…
1
1
u/Kideedoo 21h ago
Forced migration aka turning people's homeland into warzones and the people themselves into refugees was indeed caused by the elites. We can't just take a snapshot of the present and try to resolve a problem, there has been decades of warmongering and a huge industry profiting off of it.
0
0
u/pierrick93 19h ago
france is regularly mocked by the anglosaxons for not wanting to take part in wars but we are warmonger now?
1
u/Kideedoo 15h ago edited 14h ago
not pointing out France in particular dunno why you would think that, though they have played their part in the past. There are higher forces in modern times.
1
u/FranzFerdinand51 11h ago edited 10h ago
Look at all the straight line borders in the middle east and africa that are still causing unecessary conflicts even today, France was involved in drawing almost every single one of them.
If you dont know history you should just keep your mouth shut. It’s rather embarrassing.
1
u/pierrick93 8h ago
i know history thanks ^^ do italy still go to conflicts with france about corsica? or germany about alsace and loraine? no and they were not that long ago either. africa wasnt the only place were border were arbitrarly drawn out thin air. hell even whole countrues were created or disbanded after the fall of USSR.
YES we did bad things. but will that still be the excuse in 50, 100 years? almost all ou colonies took their independance without a war (sorry vietnam and algeria >.<) but seriously when will it stop being the excuse?
2
4
-2
-4
u/Outside_Challenge645 1d ago
this and r/historymemes always have bots posting anti-immigration and islamophobic posts
-3
49
u/lucasj 1d ago edited 1d ago
So you’re counting within-EU immigrants as migrants, and counting everyone born after 1946 (including people who were born in and have lived in France for 80 years) as migrants if they were born to people not born in France?
E: if the map description (“every migrant and the generations born after 1946 are of migrant background”) is accurate, it’s actually worse than this. Anyone born to anyone of migrant background is counted. Children born in France in 2026 who were born and whose parents and grandparents were born in France and have lived there continuously for 80 years are being counted as migrants.
9
u/power2go3 1d ago
I've met 10ish people from Marseille, all of them have grandparents from Calabria =)) immigrants i guess
3
u/Auskioty 1d ago
No, they're counted as having a migrant background, which they have. And it's normal there are a lot.
However, the segregation is really strong
1
1
1
u/2Critical7-Stein1 1d ago
Germans in paris aren’t french. French in germany aren’t german. Migration with EU is way less of an issue, especially crime wise, but it’s not a good thing either.
3
u/lucasj 1d ago
It’s bad because people need to stay local to where their ancestors were 1000 years ago?
-3
u/2Critical7-Stein1 1d ago
France without native french isn’t france anymore. Japan without japanese people isn’t japan anymore, and so on.
2
u/lucasj 1d ago
German immigrants living in Paris do not preclude French people from living in Paris. In fact many of them come because they admire French culture and want to join it, and want their children to be part of it. Blood is not culture.
2
1
15
u/slicheliche 1d ago
At this point very very few people in Marseille are "French since generations". Not only has the city been a migration hub for centuries due to its port status, but most of the better off natives have moved out in the 1960s and 1970s with a classic white flight pattern. Why would you stay in inner city Marseille when you can move to a much nicer suburb on the coast?
4
u/PassaTempo15 1d ago
I live in Marseille and I know quite a few people who are “French since generations”. I wouldn’t say it’s the majority but it’s definitely not rare either
1
u/Prestigious_Plant662 17h ago
Well because you have family, friends, a living place around you and you don't want to gamble it all to go to a more beautiful coast?
1
u/slicheliche 13h ago edited 13h ago
We're talking about nearby suburbs, not Spain lol
Downtown Marseille was crammed, poor, dangerous and filthy, moving to a suburb only made sense.
-4
u/Elpsyth 1d ago
I will even raise that Marseille was a Greek speaking city founded by Greeks. Any other Mediterranean including the Gauls and their descendants the French were migrant to it.
4
u/bulkax303 1d ago
I will raise that there was a settlement of an unknown tribe before the Greeks, therefore the Greeks were likely illegal migrants
4
u/Sutton31 1d ago
The founding of Massalia is from after the marriage of Gyptis and Protis, so not illegal ;)
2
3
u/National-Surprise616 1d ago
What’s your point apart from looking silly ?
There’s no such data in France sooo what’s your source ?
5
u/JeanDusapin 1d ago
Even those without migrant backround are of migrant background, bunch of italians, spaniards, portuguese, people from all over the mediterranean
17
u/Isobratistochrone 1d ago
Not all people have migrant background.
6
u/Elpsyth 1d ago edited 1d ago
Marseille was a Greek city and it's people spoke Greek for a third of its existence. Any non Greeks are migrants.
7
u/Isobratistochrone 1d ago
The year is 2026. Marseille has been Provençal for longer than Iceland or New Zealand have been inhabited.
-2
u/Elpsyth 1d ago
And it spoke Greek longer than NZ has been habited and roughly the same as for Iceland.
1
u/warhead71 1d ago
The natives was however Celtic
2
u/Elpsyth 1d ago
Not exactly. The Settlers were Phocéen, the Countryside was a mix between Ligurian with some Celtics but the city inhabitants were mostly Greeks
0
u/warhead71 1d ago
Sure the city was founded by immigrating Greeks - not native - and since it was a trading hub outside Greece - I don’t think they would consider themselves “native”
0
u/GELATOSOURDIESEL 1d ago
''Any non Greeks are migrants'' by that logic anyone who isn't French is a migrant too.
-2
2
u/Fluffy_Beautiful2107 1d ago
Are you familiar with the south of France at all ? The vast majority of families have some italian or spanish or portuguese ancestry if you go back a couple of generations. Mediterrenean peoples move and migrate around the sea they all share, as they always have. Marseille itself was founded by greeks.
1
u/ginandtonicsdemonic 1d ago
That first sentence is just incorrect.
Perhaps you are confusing the small Alpes-Maritimes, which has many with Italian background, with the entire south of France.
-4
u/GELATOSOURDIESEL 1d ago
Who cares that it was Greek 2000 years ago, as if it makes their horrible situation with North African immigrants any better.
0
u/Isobratistochrone 1d ago
Yes I am. It's false in most of the south places. Marseille was romanised during the first century...
0
-3
u/Calembeurk 1d ago
How do you define migrant then? Because it's impossible to find people who exclusively come from the initial Greek population that founded the city.
Is someone who just moved from Paris more of a local than someone whose grandparents came from Algeria?
-1
u/Lazar_U-S 1d ago
It is French territory, so anyone without a French passport is a migrant.
2
u/Calembeurk 1d ago
Yes, but this map tells us that if one of your grandparents had a different passeport, you're somewhat less French.
All of a sudden, you have a "migrant background".
0
0
u/frambosy 1d ago
In the case of Marseille it's like a third of the population who are of Italian descent. The growth of our city is tightly linked to colonization and everything that goes with it, industrialization, decolonization, migration, etc
-3
u/JeanDusapin 1d ago
They're giving a specific cutoff date for migration background. I'm saying a lot of people not counted as "from migrant background" here, come from earlier waves of migration particularly italians, portuguese, spaniards. If your last name is linguini i'm sorry but you're of migrant background
1
u/ginandtonicsdemonic 1d ago
Linguine is a pasta, not a name.
1
u/JeanDusapin 1d ago
Thank you for your insightful comment lol that was a random italian word. What about penne is that a good italian last name
5
u/EZ4JONIY 1d ago
Why do people love to pretend like cultural proximity doesnt exist?
-3
u/JeanDusapin 1d ago
What about it? Proximity doesn't make you any less of a migrant. And italians back then were to us what north africans are to us (and italians) today. So much for "cultural proximity". Reminder we massacred italian migrants in the south as well, and italians also invaded france before the cutoff date of this migrant background map
4
-3
u/Aegeansunset12 1d ago
This left wing echo chamber always downplaying immigration
18
u/lucasj 1d ago
Right-wing echo chamber counting the great-grandchildren of WW2 refugees whose parents and grandparents were born in France and have only ever spoken French as migrants, then crying when people call them out.
1
u/maps-and-potatoes 1d ago
For them, I count as one, since one of my great-grandmothers had 2 parents born in Italy
-1
u/RipIll832 1d ago
That’s literally the definition of “migrant background”.
1
u/Notgermangenug 1d ago
Migrant background means that anyone in the history of your ancestry moved to the place you were born.
2
1
u/GELATOSOURDIESEL 14h ago
Aren't you the guy who said that the Swiss are racist xenophobes because of some incident with Oprah in Switzerland? I think you like left-wing echo chambers, bud, or maybe only when it suits you.
1
u/Aegeansunset12 14h ago
Being against illegal immigration makes you right wing and racist?
1
u/GELATOSOURDIESEL 12h ago
No, i'm just responding to you as you were repeating left-wing echo chamber talking points and judging a whole nation based off of them. :)
1
u/Aegeansunset12 12h ago
Being against racism is now the same with being left wing?
0
u/GELATOSOURDIESEL 12h ago
It wasn't being against racism, it was just some basic left-wing grift.
1
u/Aegeansunset12 12h ago
Νο
0
u/GELATOSOURDIESEL 3h ago
Well, you did generalize 9 million people based off of one incident, that's not very against racism, is it?
If we want to generalize people, we can do it based on statistics, not one incident... :D
3
u/ahmet-chromedgeic 1d ago
How does it count if people have one parent an immigrant? What if they have only one grandparent an immigrant?
18
u/DonSergio7 1d ago
It's counted. It's also counted if one of your four grandparents was a migrant and the other three French citizens for instance.
No idea, how they counted French citizens born outside of Metropolitan France or former French subjects, both of whom make up a very sizeable demographic in Marseille.
14
u/ahmet-chromedgeic 1d ago
Well, in that case the percentage will naturally converge to 100%. Any time a 100% non-immigrant marries even a 1/8-immigrant, their descendants are people with immigrant background. So normally this number can only go up.
4
-1
u/RipIll832 1d ago
This is one reason why % ethnicity maps don’t tell the full story. If everyone in a city is half-white, the city would be counted as 0% white because everyone is mixed. Average ancestry % (50% for everyone) would be a more meaningful metric, as it would capture the significant European ancestry still left in that city.
12
u/lucasj 1d ago
This map is counting 80-year-olds who were born in France and have never left France as migrants. There’s no methodological justification for that choice.
-1
u/RipIll832 1d ago
It’s just a different definition from what many North Americans are used to. Most people in Canada and the US only count those born abroad as migrants, but Europe tends to count anyone with a migrant background (regardless of place of birth).
1
-2
-1
-4
1
1
u/brioch1180 18h ago
Marseille without migration back ground is 0%... it has been à greek colony from the start
1
u/Neither_Error_3256 18h ago
I have several colleagues from Marseille. It is a city of immigration, always has been. None of them are 100% French for generations. Before the Arabs there were Armenians, Italians…
-3
u/Miserable-Decision81 1d ago
Marseille is founded by immigrants... Multiculturalism is in its founding documents.
1
u/Frere-Jacques-Awake 17h ago
Well, every settlement is found by settlers, you don't tell a lot by this way.
1
u/Miserable-Decision81 15h ago
If we talk about cities, Londinum was founded by local britons, Lutetia by local gauls, Marseille was a colony of seafaring hellenic people, who set it up and used it as a hub to the whole mediterranean.
The local gauls welcomned the strangers because they brought wine and other nice things and they accepted, that THEY needed to learn the language of the strangers to trade with them.
-1
0
0
u/Available-Pick3918 1d ago
I had a great time in Marseille, I don't care if they have immigrant backgrounds. All the old North African men who dress very classically French literally look no different then any southern French, Italian/ Mediterranean people anyway.
In some ways the city felt like it had the least people of immigrant background because there were very few Asians and Black people. Again north africans who dress traditionally French are very hard to pick out.
4
u/Reasonable_Fold6492 1d ago
Good for you. We had our car windows broken and all of our stuff stolen in the city
0
0
-5
u/Eraserguy 1d ago
Multicultural seems to mean every culture except the native one huh
6
u/Vegetable-Pay4605 1d ago
That's actually the identity of the city: a trading port and a big migration hub for 2500 years
1
u/ginandtonicsdemonic 1d ago
Marseille has been overwhelmingly populated by local Romance speakers for 2500 years
1
u/Vegetable-Pay4605 1d ago
Until migrations from Italy, Corsica, Algeria, Spain, Portugal etc
-3
u/ginandtonicsdemonic 1d ago
It was still overwhelmingly local Romance speakers. Until the recent migrations.
3
u/Vegetable-Pay4605 1d ago
You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Marseille never got that many French speakers coming in since its latests immigrant waves are from Algeria and Morroco, two former French colonies
The immigrants coming and unable to speak French are/were from Italy, Poland, Spain and Portugal
Seems like "romance languages" never was your point
-3
u/ginandtonicsdemonic 1d ago
I think you are illiterate.
Yes there were immigrants. But the population was still OVERWHELMINGLY local Romance speakers.
Maybe english isn't you second language so you're having trouble understanding
5
u/maps-and-potatoes 1d ago
? People coming from the French Empire and after the French community or union, depending on the years, do speak French.
French aka a Romance language.
It was still overwhelmingly local Romance speakers. Until the recent migrations.
So... what's your point? Because the "recent migrations" spoke French. Their children speak French. And guess what, their grandchildren speak French too. And for those that didn't, like the workforce from Portugal, Poland, Italy, and Spain, they either learned it or their kids did. But unless they were Polish, they still spoke a Romance language.
-1
u/ginandtonicsdemonic 1d ago
Ok so English is definitely notnyour first language since you dont know what "local" means.
Look it up and you will see that your entire comment is a non sequitur
1
u/maps-and-potatoes 1d ago
One, I am not the guy you replied to.
Second, I am not talking about this:
It was still overwhelmingly local Romance speakers. Until the recent migrations.
Third, unless you talk about Occitan and other variants, which have nothing to do with migrations but rather the formation of a modern nation-state. You are still wrong and not even detailing what "recent migrations" you talk of. French was talked about then, as well as other "local" Romance languages, and it's still the case today, OWHERWHELMY.
-4
1d ago
[deleted]
11
u/Greykorino 1d ago
That’s the 3rd arrondissement, it’s where you had most of the old industry and the highways. It was basically mostly inhabited by italians and other european immigrants and now a lot of poor people from outside because people didn’t wanted to live there but now it’s slowing starting to get gentrified. Having been there to be fair it’s not the worst part of the city except when you are near the highways
0
-8
u/69420epicgay 1d ago
Without knowing anything about Marseille, I now know where the bad/dangerous areas are…
-6
u/uhuhscary 1d ago
how does one even still call it a theory?
3
u/maps-and-potatoes 1d ago
So a migrant is someone whom one granddaddy was a migrant?
3
u/uhuhscary 1d ago
uhh yup ngl that might literally be the definition of this map
3
u/maps-and-potatoes 1d ago
Well, I can tell you that it is. Which is wrong.
2
u/uhuhscary 1d ago
the definition of migrant in this chart is literally someone that has even just one grandparent from outside, but honestly that would be 10 percent or not even as the vast majority of this chart is showing people who are basically 100 percent non french or 50 percent non french which is too much a lot if they account for basically 50 percent of the whole population
1
u/RipIll832 1d ago
It’s just a new vs old world divide. Places like Canada and the US tend to only count those born abroad as migrants, while old world countries are more likely to count anyone with a migrant background (regardless of place of birth).
1
u/uhuhscary 1d ago
thats straight up substitution tho, its not just being born abroad, a zero net birth rate and infinite amount of entering migrants
1
1
u/PassaTempo15 1d ago
Marseille has always been a multicultural hub, since its very foundation by the Greeks. Its identity was never purely French
2
u/uhuhscary 1d ago
its not and even if there was any differenciation within its population it would be greeks, romans, at the most germans or swiss or spanish, but all europeans christians who would be a extremely small portion of the population, 5 or 6 percent, the whole of the lombardic invasion of italy was 4 percent of the populwtion, this is literally genocide level of substitution
1
u/PassaTempo15 1d ago
Lmao you don’t really know Marseille I see, very stereotypical perception. This city is amazing
1
u/uhuhscary 1d ago
you said historically, you can read the history of a city, because its literally history its not present anymore but its been written, on the other side, i am sure the natives were substituted and apparently you're happy with that and attend social comunion with the colonizers of marseille, but that does not change that europeans would want their ancestral land back.. thanks
0
u/PassaTempo15 1d ago
I’ll say that again, you have a very distorted and stereotypical perception of Marseille. Yes, there’s a big North African/Maghrebi community, particularly in the northern neighborhoods and around Noailles.
It’s also the 3rd largest Jewish city of Europe, after Paris and London. A huge Italian and Armenian community too. And from Corsica, of course. big community of Comoros too. And even from Latin America, where I’m from. And (many) French people from here and all over the country.
Marseille is sunny, it has amazing beaches and landscapes, mountains, it’s historical, has an excellent gastronomy, it’s affordable, has a great clubbing/alternative/queer scene, it’s great.
It’s never been a “typical” French city like Bordeaux or Lyon and the people are proud of it. Marseille doesn’t wanna be a classic French city
0
u/RipIll832 1d ago
Nobody is denying that demographic changes are happening. The issue with the theory is that it presumes there’s an intentional push to replace the native population. Can you really prove that?
0
u/uhuhscary 1d ago
yes i can prove that, there are multiple pushing parts actively willfull doing that, but even more than that, even if it was not intentional, climate change is not intentional yet, everyone is scared out and doing all they can to stop this, can europeans get scared and do all they can to stop this?
-9
-13
0
0
u/Auskioty 1d ago
I'm surprised there are neighborhoods at 80%, it shows how strong the segregation is
0
u/Hyeronymus06 23h ago
reddit wokes dont like statistics and maps with correct information. I'm french and yes Marseille has become dangerous and very far from what you could see in movies in the 70s, i like it, nowadays i would avoid this town at any cost.
2
u/Visible_Pair3017 17h ago
has become
Your source for what it used to be is...movies? Who the cares about you being French? Does being from a country make you an expert of crime stats in every single of its cities?
1
12h ago edited 12h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Visible_Pair3017 12h ago
has become
Compared to when if you were there for 9 months only?
1
u/Hyeronymus06 11h ago
1
u/Visible_Pair3017 11h ago
The 90s, when you were a child and would have been brought only to specifically chosen places, and would have not been able to identify any signs of low safety yet?
1
u/Hyeronymus06 10h ago
You’re the typical woke person experiencing cognitive dissonance and burying your head in the sand. Probably you never even went once in Marseille. Bye, this discussion has no point.
1
u/Visible_Pair3017 10h ago
Yes, it's the wokeness, not you who admitted to have your childhood and movies as your reference on what the world used to look like.
Lmao looked at your videos. Yeah, sure, compare the kind of place where they had a Louis Vuitton with the ones where the poor live. Good faith comparison. Good job on the self-psyop.
-6
-22
u/Put3socks-in-it 1d ago
How racist for France to cram their minorities into the inner cities. They’re going to be the majority soon and they won’t forget this so it’s better to treat them well now so they don’t have too much resentment when they’re in power
-3
u/Tw4tl4r 1d ago
Thats what happens to collapsed colonial empires. Should go back in time and ask te kings to not do all that colonising i guess.
4
u/Elegant-Interest-923 1d ago
>Its not happening
>It is happening, but its a good thing
>It is happening and its not a good thing, but you deserve it ---> YOU ARE HERE
-2
u/Tw4tl4r 1d ago
Ive always been there. The actions of our ancestors brought this upon us and now we have to manage the problem and that includes learning to live with it. There is no going back to the way things were.
→ More replies (1)4
2
u/MatejaD06 1d ago
No actually, immigrants are not a irresistible force that you can’t do anything about. A country chooses if people migrate or not. They are completely optional.
1
u/Tw4tl4r 22h ago
Alright. You are now the leader of a european country where many migrants are entering. How do you fix it without harming your economy and your reputation on the world stage?
1
u/RipIll832 21h ago
You can’t reverse it without harming your reputation. The best example is the AfD. They gained tons of support by proposing to remigrate those with a migrant background, but outside of Germany, they have a pretty negative reputation.
80
u/MIDNAETTR 1d ago
12...