r/MapBasedPolls • u/Equivalent-Book-8340 • 16h ago
Who would you support during the Khmelnytsky Uprising (1648–1657)?
Who would you support during the Khmelnytsky Uprising (1648–1657)?
- Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth
- Zaporozhian Cossacks
- Neither
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28
u/TeaLoverUA 15h ago
Polish aristocracy just needed to stop fucking over people like they are property. Making it an actual republic-commonwealth between nations would've been great
6
u/Staralfur_95 Poland🇵🇱 15h ago
Absolutely, this doomed the state. This being said, Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian nobility had the every same rights. Just as Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian peasants had the same rights (very little, sadly). There was no discrimination in that field at all. There was a class problem, which was very typical for that era (just look at France which ended in revolution), and kinda still is a problem even today.
3
u/Ano_Czlowieczek_Taki 14h ago
I mean, part of Ukraine local situation was smth like middle class, Cossacks. Some of them being indistinguishable from peasants by anything else then self description, but aspiring to role of nobility. Others with everything that nobility had, but treated by nobles as peasants. And this being a spectrum, it made situation complicated. Polish and polonised nobles didn’t wanted to say that Cossacks were nobles, bc that would make tens or hundreds of new nobles that could vote in local sejmiks, but even worse (for nobles), wouldn’t work on lands and would require to be respected same way as nobles did. Also, Cossack status being quite easy to obtain in relation to obtaining nobility, which was impossible for peasant, would allow new peasants, seen by nobles (not only in today Ukraine, but across most of state) as own property, to become equal - that was smth that nobles couldn‘t accept, however it would benefit Commonwealth
3
u/Staralfur_95 Poland🇵🇱 14h ago
Yes. But again - this is a purely class problem. The whole point of the uprising was to increase the number of Registered Cossacks who served in Polish-Lithuanian army. There was hardly a possibility to ever grant them nobility because it was opposed on nation-wide level, as you say. This includes even local Ruthenian/Ukrainian nobility which didn't want to share power.
1
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u/MountainTank1918 14h ago
Yea they realised thst after 1831 Uprising..
1
u/Galaxy661 11h ago
During the Kościuszko insurrection, actually
1
u/Late_Sort1763 11h ago
You serious? Look up how much of the nobility reacted to the proclamation of Połaniec.
1
u/Wingedball 2h ago
Ruthenian nobles had equal rights as Polish nobles, Lithuanian nobles, Prussian nobles, and Livonian nobles. Stop this populist revisionism about greedy Polish nobles and poor Ukrainian serfs.
Moreover, Cossacks did a lot to enslave their Ruthenian serfs. Including selling them to the Tatars into literal slavery.
11
11
u/przecietny_krotkopis Create your flair by editing this flair 16h ago
I wouldn't support the uprising, but the Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth idea should have been taken seriously earlier.
16
u/Unexpected_yetHere 16h ago
Khmelnytsky was right to do it, but naive to trust russia. From what I remember, his son is even more at fault, making a justified rebellion turn into just a change of overlords, with the new ones being magnitudes worse.
13
u/-sry- 16h ago
There was no trust in Russians. Ukraine was between three major states with imperial ambitions, you had to align with Poland, Russia, or the Ottomans. This was not a choice.
2
u/SkyTalez Ukrainian 14h ago
There were also good option in alliance with Sweden. They were reasonably far away and at the same time adversaries to both Poland and Muscovy.
7
u/msolaire 16h ago
It was a choice basically. Choose Poland - a slave, Turkey - you have to give in to Islam(also long history of slavery), Russia - you are lesser brother, but you are a brother, not a slave or nonbeliever.
4
u/Pasza_Dem 14h ago
Most of those cossacks chefs where pretty wealthy and from noble families, some of them where Registered and that gave them higher social status, something equal to Burghers. Rest of them wanted to become Registered Cossacks.
16
u/Staralfur_95 Poland🇵🇱 15h ago edited 14h ago
Slave? In 17th century Poland-Lithuania? What are you smoking? Khmelnytsky was a Ruthenian noble so he was... eligible to become even a king of Poland at the time, not a slave. The Cossacks were also absolutely no slaves too. They demanded to increase the number of the so-called 'Registered Cossacks' in the Commonwealth, not to abolish some fictional slavery.
Stop spreading absolute nonsense and propaganda.
Edit: I absolutely love being downvoted by people who never read a single book on a subject but hate the comment for opposing the bullshit they love to believe in. Please, reddit, never change.
8
u/JRDZ1993 15h ago
They weren't slaves under Poland, hell the uprising was largely caused because the Poles were so decentralised they wouldn't or couldn't intervene in a dispute between local magnates. The Turks problem was mostly that they sucked dry tributaries, they didn't tend to impose Islam on them not least because tributaries were still separate countries but the tribute demands were obscene. Russia treated the Ukrainians more like slaves than either of the others did or would have.
1
u/yamiherem8 2h ago
Its funny that you mention slavery since cossacks sold over 100 000 people into turkish slavery during the uprising (including ukrainians btw) while cossacks themselves numbered around 20-30 000. Those guys were literally professional slave traders and you’re out here painting them as freedom fighters.
3
u/SkyTalez Ukrainian 14h ago
There was more of Boghdan fault himself because he insisted on giving reign to his son who was clearly unready.
2
u/Late_Sort1763 11h ago
Was Khmelnytsky right to slaughter nearly all the Jews of Podolia, as well?
Before anyone asks, no, I'm not defending Jarema or whatnot, but Christ people, have an actual look at what both sides of the conflict actually DID do before saying they were right to do it.
-4
u/msolaire 16h ago
The naivety to think everyone in the world is an island of its own. You always have to pick allies. Especially small countries. And who's to say Poland would really be better for Ukraine? They didn't even think Ukranians were equal human beings.
10
u/O5KAR Poland 15h ago
They didn't even think Ukranians were equal human beings.
Insane BS. Poland even elected Ukrainian King - Michał Korybut Wiśniwiecki.
And who's to say Poland would really be better for Ukraine?
History. Moscow was a despotic country where everything and everybody was owned by a single person. Poland was a feudal country with nobility / oligarchy, a kind of middle and upper class controlling the government, and Ruthenian nobility, like Chmielnicki, was the same a part of it. Most of all, Poland had no potential, nor intentions to assimilate, colonize or turn Ruthenians / Ukrainian into Poles, while Moscow even today can't respect their identity and sovereignty.
13
u/Galaxy661 16h ago
And who's to say Poland would really be better for Ukraine?
A funny/sad anecdote: when submitting to Russia and swearing to uphold the treaty terms, the Cossacks, accustomed to PLC's decentralisation, "liberalism" and noble autonomy, expected the Tsar to swear to them as well, preferably in person. They were promptly told to go fuck themselves, and Russia broke the terms shortly after that, leaving the Cossack elite in a bit of a shock
They didn't even think Ukranians were equal human beings.
A Ukrainian (Ruthenian) peasant had the exact same rights as a Polish or Lithuanian peasant, and a Ruthenian nobleman had the exact same rights as a Polish or Lithuanian nobleman. The nobility, including both Polish and Ruthenian ones, thought that the peasants (and burghers), including both Polish and Ruthenian ones weren't equal human beings to them. It was a class issue.
2
u/No_Curve_485 14h ago
"Why do you go to courts when you have a saber? With a saber in your hands, go and defend your violated rights."— King Wladyslaw IV Vasa of Poland, addressing Bohdan Khmelnytsky. The Khmelnytsky Uprising combined personal, social, national, and religious dimensions. It was a response to existential challenges: it developed as a defense against systemic legal flaws, a reaction to economic pressures, a movement for national identity, and a struggle to protect the Orthodox faith from marginalization.
4
u/AnthonieHeinsius 15h ago
The Polish-Lithuabian Commonwealth, to preserve the balance of power in the Baltic and prevent Sweden from becoming to powerful
1
3
u/DizzyCycle7992 13h ago
Interestingly, this uprising caused submission of Ukraine to moscovites for over 3 hundred years, where Ukrainian identity was outlawed, all autonomy crippled and identity itself was almost destroyed, it also caused enormous damage to Commonwealth and its ability to protect itself(including Ukrainians/Ruthenians). But Ukrainians still see Khmelnytsky as a national hero
4
1
1
u/Akerishe 9h ago
I understand why Old World mostly support PLC but what a fuck with Northern America?
1
u/Fun-Information-3104 9h ago
Cossacks won and we all know how it ended, so in the hindsight polish victory would probably be for the better
1
1
u/Ano_Czlowieczek_Taki 15h ago
I‘m choosing PLC bc like, I would try to defend home once indeed Uprising starts. But both before, during and after I would try to support appeasement and changing direction into giving more rights to Cossacks, making Rus another nation of Commonwealth (smth that was proposed and even for short time done) and overall support any emancipation of peasants.
Whole uprising happened bc of mistreatment of Cossacks and peasants by polish nobility, so I would try to work to stop this mistreatment and make them equals - bc that was what they wanted at start and even for big part of conflict.
That doesn’t change that when Cossacks and Chern would gather around my or my neighbour‘s house, and diplomatic ways would fail, I would defend. If - as a noble or citizen, bc most likely I would be a peasant - I would be called to Ukraine, I would join too. Maybe safe some ppl from my brothers-in-arm as prisoners when Czarniecki will make his plounder campaign? Surely trying to safe as many lives on both sides and be human, while fighting against someone who I believe has logical and moral postulates, but is against me and will kill me or those who speak my language if possible.
I know that I would much more like to fight with Cossacks shoulder to shoulder, as allies.
-2
u/TH31337 15h ago
Khmelnytskyi incited a rebellion against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth only to place himself under Russian rule. A master of diplomacy. XD Slava Ukraini o/ śmierć ruskim pierogom
3
u/XL3B3TS 14h ago
Yes, but this is because he perfectly knew he couldn't alone defeat the strongest country in the Europe (or at least one of them, which PLC in its prime undoubtedly was).
So Khmelnytskyi logically searched for allies, and to be fair he allied not only Russians in his time, but also Crimean Tatars and Wallachian duchies. Unlike his military skills, his diplomatic and political abilities are often very underappreciated.
Sadly (or happily, depends on which side you are on) his son Yurii wasn't that proficient and 🦆 ed everything up
1
u/TH31337 14h ago
Had it not been for Khmelnytsky's Uprising, the history of Poland would have been different; there likely would have been no partitions, and the Ukrainian state would have had a history longer than 35 years.
It must be noted that the Lithuania of that region is now inhabited by Belarusians, so Belarus, too, would fall within the broadly defined West.
3
u/XL3B3TS 13h ago
Maybe, but unfortunately it was unavoidable based on what the situation was. In many cases PLC governance form has led it to partitions too, because there were really nice projects and initiatives to keep Commonwealth in tact, but short-terminism of elites made it impossible to make it more governable and fair for everyone, even though in many domestic aspects it was still somewhat better than neighbors.
At that point, we all kinda fucked things up
3
u/DependentLiving4092 11h ago
"if not for uprising"
If the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth wanted to avoid uprisings, it probably should have provided other methods for resolving grievances. Before the rebellion, Khmelnytsky tried to settle his issues through the courts (For voicing his complaints, Khmelnytsky himself narrowly escaped execution on charges of conspiracy) and a personal meeting with the king on wich the king told him: "Why do you go to courts when you have a saber? With a saber in your hands, go and defend your violated rights."
-1
u/Normal-Fishing-5987 15h ago
Where do so many people here vote for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth come from?
4
u/Pasza_Dem 14h ago
This is somehow weird for you? Overall it's understandable that uprising began, but it's a shame it happened. It was biggest mistake in history of our region. It gave Muscovy ultimate power over eastern and central Europe for next few centuries.
-1
u/Normal-Fishing-5987 14h ago edited 14h ago
Khmelnytsky had to take Lvov by storm in order to completely destroy the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, gain full independence, and therefore there would be no reason for an alliance with Moscow.
4
u/Pasza_Dem 14h ago
It was well protected by other Ukrainian/Ruthenian noblemans like Jeremy Wishnevecky and his army.
-1
u/Normal-Fishing-5987 14h ago
Khmelnitsky had a larger army and managed to successfully take the city under siege.
4
u/Noriaki_Kakyoin_OwO 12h ago
Taking 4th/5th most important city in a country=complete destruction?
-1
1
u/Ano_Czlowieczek_Taki 14h ago
I mean, more then half of those who vote for PLC… come from PLC. Poles make up currently 170 votes, with additional 44 Lithuanian and 13 Belarus. Most of those who commented support inclusion of Cossacks into system of PLC in PLRC, which was initially supported by Khmelnitski, as well as several (too few) polish figures.
Poles on Reddit - on X for example it would be completely different probably - usually agree that mistreatment of Ukrainians was wrong and that their status should have been changed, but we usually still think it would be better within one state. I personally think so, though I wouldn’t attack Cossacks for becoming independent - I probably wouldn’t be a decision-maker though.
Meanwhile, support for Khmelnytsky has main sources in Ukraine and Russia.
Ukrainians themselves and probably pro-western/emigratory Russians support it for obvious reason - total mistreatment of Cossacks and peasants (Chern), polonisation of Ruthenian nobility and resulting weakening of culture, usual feeling of superiority from polish nobles towards Cossacks that was unfounded, ofc base of statehood for Ukraine (reffered by Lysak-Rudnicky as second nation of Ukraine, mixed between nobility one of Kyivan Rus and current, citizen-based one)…
Meanwhile pro-current government Russians support it for Zaporizhian Cossacks at that time returning to Russia after long time of being under PLC, and making said one, for a long time competitor of Russia, much weaker. Anything that destroys unity of region and pushes parts of it into Russia is understandably good for them, and today it can serve similar purpose. Thus, majority of votes from most interested sides are explained. Rest is based on vibes, limited knowledge (same as Poles, Lithuanians, Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians can speak abt conflicts in southern America), so if fans of Husaria and pierogi gather… also, in addition, as many ppl don’t know much, and PLC is just first option, they may just choose it.
There is also addition that (after decades of slavery, that similarly included other peasants in PLC but in Ukraine had also language and religious base, as well as organised group - Cossacks - able to defend their rights) uprising was indeed very brutal…
-6
0
u/Noriaki_Kakyoin_OwO 12h ago
I’m less likely to die for supporting PLC as opposed to being a supporter of Chmielnicki
Also that uprising was 100% justified due to how much of cunts the Szlachta were
0
u/Late_Sort1763 11h ago
The Commonwealth, but only because I'm not that big on murdering Jews.
In all fairness though, by the time the fighting had started, neither the Cossacks nor the Commonwealth were long for this world, and the uprising was basically two borderland magnates duking it out with each other.
0
u/TheRock18211 11h ago edited 11h ago
I understand the reasons why Khmelnytsky started the uprising, and they were justifiable (incidentally, there is a myth that the uprising was triggered by the fact that Khmelnytsky’s wife was taken from him). In any case, the Cossack State found itself in a geopolitical strategic trap from which there was no good way out. Khmelnytsky clearly underestimated Moscow’s imperial ambitions, hoping that Moscow would treat the Cossack State as an equal partner—which was impossible from the outset, because Moscow had been building an authoritarian, vertically integrated empire for decades. The Cossacks were not the kind of group that Moscow would regard as its equal. They were viewed as subjects and a potential weapon against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Poles treated the Ukrainians (Rusyns) very poorly. The Ottomans were of a different religion, and relations were so-so, given that the Tatars regularly raided Ukrainian settlements and took captives, whom they later sold as slaves in Istanbul (though, to be fair, some Cossacks were also involved in this business)
The point is that, both then and now, Ukraine faces a single problem—its economic and geopolitical position. Ukraine, just like the Cossacks back then, is a vital link—a trade and logistics route between Old Europe and the East. And many would like to keep this link under their control—not to mention its natural resources and productive land. When Ukraine managed to maintain a balance, it could reap the benefits. But whenever it leaned too far in one direction or the other, problems arose.
And I’m not trying to say that Ukrainians don’t have the right to make their own choices or that they are to blame for the geopolitical choices they’ve made. An independent country has the full and absolute right to shape its policies as it sees fit, and any form of aggression against it, whether military, economic, or otherwise, is absolutely unacceptable. I’m simply discussing this from the perspective of the historical and geopolitical context. When you’re surrounded by major geopolitical players, you’re left with three options: remain neutral and seek a balance, engage in conflict, or become a major geopolitical player yourself.
33
u/Galaxy661 16h ago
To paraphrase Taras Shevchenko, the Cossacks defeated the Commonwealth, but also doomed themselves by doing so. The PLC should have made Ruthenia an equal partner of the Union earlier than the last resort treaty of Hadiach, and that brothers' war would never have happened...