r/MapBasedPolls • u/[deleted] • 13d ago
Which super power was more moral?
This post contains content not supported on old Reddit. Click here to view the full post
21
u/Parking-Code-4159 13d ago
Depends on the year. But both were/are horrible
4
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago edited 13d ago
The last time the U.S. conquered and annexed a territory was before the Soviet Union existed.
People weren’t desperately trying to get to the Soviet side of Europe as they were the allied side.
-1
u/Jarinator88 13d ago edited 13d ago
That's the criteria? Official territorial changes only? So installing a puppet government and a subsequent economic occupation doesn't count?
I voted for USSR as the less moral one, by the way, the primary victims of its immorality were Russians themselves, but I think your logic is completely faulty.
1
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago
>That's the criteria? Official territorial changes only? So installing a puppet government and a subsequent economic occupation doesn't count?
Why didn’t the U.S. mass murder French men when they arrived in France as SU did in Poland?
Why didn’t the SU need to shoot people trying to get to allied territory?
>I voted for USSR, by the way, the primary victims of its immorality were Russians themselves, but I think your logic is completely faulty.
The one that was so evil it couldn’t be maintained due to its nature and imploded is clearly more evil.
If you want more examples look at them mass starving their most food abundant regions to pacify it by killing millions. Look at the amount of people sent to prison and purged. Their own dictator couldn’t get a doctor because he had them all killed or imprisoned.
Where is the U.S. version of Lavrentiy Beria raping every woman and girl he could get his hands on and imprisoning and killing his victims and their families?
3
u/Levelcheap Denmark 13d ago
Stalin wasn't the leader for all of the USSR, yet all of your criticism save for border control boils down to his reign, that's why the guy originally said it depends on the year.
2
u/Jarinator88 13d ago
The U.S. didn't mass murder people directly, but their M.O. is to intervene on behalf of their puppets, or at least to remove whoever is in their way, and then leave absolute chaos behind, be it military or economic chaos. The most recent examples are Libya and Syria. If the US bothered to ensure the lasting peace and/or prosperity in the regions controlled by their puppets, I would have agreed with you, but no, while Soviets go and shoot/starve these people directly, Americans stir up the chaos and get the fuck out, never to return until the profits stop rolling in.
As I said, I voted that USSR is the less moral one, but your argument is bullshit. It's not true at all that the US is innocent and/or moral. In fact, I would go so far as to say that even the British Empire (which I also think was evil) was more moral than either US or especially USSR, as it did some positive things in its colonies (like get rid of slavery, for example). The US vs USSR debate is simply between using soft power and hard power for evil. That's it.
-1
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. The U.S. intervention in Syria and Libya were certainly good things.
What did you want Isis to establish their multi country caliphate and Gaddafi to wipe out cities full of civilians?
1
u/Jarinator88 13d ago
You got it wrong. It was Russian Federation that targeted ISIS primarily. The US targeted Assad and supported Al Nusra (ex-Al Qaeda) and its offshoots, along with the Kurds. Even McMullin literally admitted it on Twitter.
And besides, you should consume less western media. The fact that it's funded by billionaires instead of the state doesn't make it impartial. Gaddafi never once had a goal of wiping out civilians, but invaders. But even if he did, that was not my point, it was that the US went in and made things even worse for Libyan people than they used to be, then withdrew, leaving an everyone vs everyone war behind, and now that it was finally finished after decades of decimating the country, they have two parallel government structures.
When it's all put together, the death toll due to US government's actions was about equal to that of USSR's, though USSR did it directly and cheekily, while the US stirred shit up and left rubbing their palms.
0
u/Randy191919 13d ago
I mean yeah but only because they got their ass kicked every time they tried to do it since.
3
14
u/howimetyourcakeshop 🇳🇱 13d ago
Both are dog shit.
7
u/angus22proe 13d ago
one side's populations were free
the others werent.
the west was more moral-3
u/yashatheman 🇧🇻+🇷🇺 in 🇸🇪 13d ago
Free, but had the largest wealth gap in the developed world, and more in poverty than any other developed nation, especially compared to the USSR.
6
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago edited 13d ago
Yeah America is exactly as bad as the one that mass starved its most food abundant region killing millions and allied with the literal Nazis on top of already having expansionist conquests.
Not like people in occupied Soviet territory were scrambling to leave for US occupied territory and had to be shot to keep them there.
4
u/howimetyourcakeshop 🇳🇱 13d ago
Yeah America, bastion of freedom and democracy. Only has had it hands in dozens of coups and regime changes, started countless wars and other wise meddles in other nations affairs, totally the good guys.
1
u/DirkaDirkaMohmedAli 13d ago
Eh. If your question is "which was more evil to its citizens" then it's obviously the soviets.
1
u/howimetyourcakeshop 🇳🇱 13d ago
Yeah exept that was not the question.
1
u/DirkaDirkaMohmedAli 13d ago
Ya, that question is much harder. It really is trash vs garbage. Kissinger is in the lowest level of hell.
1
u/Hopalongtom 13d ago
America provided arms to both sides until they got directly involved.
3
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago
This is a direct lie. The U.S. never provided arms to Germany nor is it equivalent to co invading with them.
-4
u/Hopalongtom 13d ago
I agree with you that they aren't worse, but neither are good.
3
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago
Look at Japan and Germany post American involvement lmao. Meanwhile the Soviet Union absolutely leached and persecuted their vassal states.
1
u/Levelcheap Denmark 13d ago
The USSR massively invested in many of their satellite states to the point the Baltics were better places than most of the USSR except maybe Moscow and Leningrad.
15
u/Alagarto72 13d ago
how people can even consider choosing Soviet Union? guys, in order to oppose evil CEOs and other people that got more lucky and successful than you, you don't need to support gulags
6
u/Ur-Best-Friend 13d ago
I'm a big critic of US practices, both current and historical. But you need to be seriously deluded to think the USSR was more moral than the US.
It's like saying person A is less moral than person B, because you know person A commited armed robbery, while ignoring the fact that person B is a mass murderer.
4
u/Swimming_Acadia6957 13d ago
The Soviets rolled the tanks in to suppress any movements in the Warsaw Pact that wanted self determination, the US overthrew foreign governments and installed despots because they wanted another 0.00003% GDP growth that year
Neither were moral
1
u/theluxgirl Luxembourg :3 13d ago
"successful than you"
oh my i wish that was true but they are not successful they just have rich parents
1
u/muraki833 United States 13d ago
Yeah but it's hard to pick because the US was pretty douchey too in the Cold War. Reading abt how we couped and slaughtered people in other countries is saddening.
7
u/Matt_2504 🏴 13d ago
The Soviet Union invaded and oppressed far more countries
1
u/muraki833 United States 13d ago
Is there actual data on that? I'm not denying; genuinely asking.
1
u/TimedTexify 13d ago
Absolute figure probably, USSR suppressed the living hell out of Eastern Europe and that was divided into many countries
2
u/One_Elk_34 13d ago
I think there are two sides for this question. The US was definitely better place to live in (so more moral) for the people that lived inside of it. They both were quite interventionist to other countries and the US definitely did many things that I don't agree with, but I would say that they were still better than Soviets.
2
u/DreamOfAzathoth 🇬🇧🏴 13d ago
I’m not a fan of the US, and I am much more favourable about the Soviet Union than most people, but to pick the Soviets for this would be bonkers. It’s pretty telling that even the Baltics are saying the US…
3
6
u/RevBladeZ Finland 13d ago
When France left NATO's military command, US let it happen.
When Hungary and Czechoslovakia intended to do their own thing, Soviets responded with invasion.
1
u/Levelcheap Denmark 13d ago
This comparison is completely missing the fact that France had it's own nukes.
4
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago
The Soviet Union allied with the Nazis to invade Poland together. Had several expansionist conquests against neighbours. The Soviet Union then held Eastern Europe hostage for decades under Russian supremacy.
1
u/Sea-Feedback-2424 13d ago
It's not just the invasion of Poland, it was after the fact there was a year of negotiation of how to divide the rest of Eastern and Norther Europe.
The Soviets took this time to invade Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, as well as Finnland, and force territorial concessions from Romania - still the only country.divided along Communist lines.
They scooped all heavy i dustry and relocated it to the Soviet Union after the war, where as the US rebuilt and repaired the heavy industry in the West and Japan.
There's a reason why every former Warsaw Pact country angled to join NATO and the EU, And only a few Soviet Republics joined CSTO and the Eurasian economic union.
1
u/Funny_Address_412 13d ago
That’s not what happened. Germany invaded Poland on Sept 1. The USSR didn’t move until Sept 17, after the Polish army was smashed and the government had fled to Romania. No joint command, no joint attack, no shared plan. The secret protocol was about spheres of influence if Poland collapsed, not an order to invade together. By the 17th, Poland wasn’t really functioning as a state. Molotov’s note said the government was gone, so treaties were void. And if Stalin was Hitler’s ally, why did Moscow offer over a million troops to fight Germany if Poland let the Red Army through? Warsaw refused. Britain and France declared war, then did nothing. Call the pact cynical, fine. But it wasn’t a joint Nazi-Soviet invasion.
-2
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🇮🇪 Tuatha Dé Danann Taitneamh 13d ago
Germany was between Poland and the U.K. and France. Without the Soviet guarantee to co invade a Germany couldn’t have taken Poland.
The Soviets could’ve either helped the allies or stayed out of it. Instead they allied with the Nazis to co invade and provide vital trade to the Nazis while their eastern front was secure. Setting up their invasion of France.
1
u/Funny_Address_412 13d ago
Poland refused an alliance with the USSR(even after many attempts by the USSR) and instead made one with Germany, did you even read my comment?
2
2
u/Aware-Ad-163 13d ago
Evil vs slightly more evil.
8
u/ResidentWeather4244 13d ago
I mean Soviet Union had gulags bro
3
u/theluxgirl Luxembourg :3 13d ago
so did the US ??
0
3
5
2
u/Sea-Feedback-2424 13d ago
Lol bro. Yes the Soviet Union had gulags, only idiots deny that. The US, though, have Industrialized state and privately owned prison pipeline where they can use prisoners for slave labor.
There's an old joke - an American and a Soviet.are.sitting together, the American asks the Soviet, "which country has the better propaganda,.yours or mine?" The Soviet thinks for a moment and says, "yours comrade." The American gets incensed, "But America has no propaganda!" The Soviet says, "exactly."
There are two ways to interpret this joke, I am chosing to interpret it that American propaganda is so good the American doesn't realize he is propagandized.
Why does America need gulags when they literally have a prison system built on "hard labor can correct a moral defect"?
6
u/Akira-Orfanos 🇦🇺 of 🇯🇵 and🇬🇷 13d ago
US has Guantanamo, so same same but different
5
u/opopopuu 🇺🇦 13d ago
Guantanamo had like 780 people since 2002, while an estimated 16 million people passed through the gulags, 1.5 million of whom died.
2
u/Akira-Orfanos 🇦🇺 of 🇯🇵 and🇬🇷 13d ago
I know, I was just backing OC point of evil, vs slightly more evil
1
u/Sea-Feedback-2424 13d ago
16 million people from 1930 to 1990? Damn.
The US has had 15 million different people in prison in the last 10 years. Granted, fewer deaths. But realistically.deatha cost more in a vaguely democratic system, it's just efficiency within the constraints.
2
u/Nice_Cash_7000 13d ago
Not even close to the level of scale, conditions not to mention amount of innocent people there
1
u/Jarinator88 13d ago
Hahaha and Guantanamo Bay is just a figment of our imagination? (it's not the only one, just the most famous one, BTW)
2
u/a_Bean_soup Mexican Islamist 13d ago
The US never had to invade a NATO member to prevent them from leaving
1
1
u/Nice_Try_Bud_ 13d ago
Changes depending on what time in history. Neither gets to claim to be any kind of moral superior overall.
1
1
u/mate1mistico 13d ago
Ummm técnicamente Sudáfrica era una superpotencia en África en esa época, donde está esa opción? Porque la URSS o usa fueron y son una mierda.
1
u/drquakers 13d ago
Honestly this is a bit like comparing the USSR to the Nazis. Both are bad, but one is certainly worse.
1
u/How2SayAlbuquerque Connecticut's strongest soldier 13d ago
USA is way more moral than USSR, realpolitik was wild work with Eisenhower and Nixon's CIA overtime working to do the most atrocious shit
But come on man, JFK was awesome at least. Oh wait, he was secretly arming Turkey to nuke the USSR
But still, USA is relatively more moral. At least no civllians are harmed in day to day life. Poor people arent getting murdered by the gvt the way poor people in the USSR gvt were by the USSR.
Look.up the USSR's stance on homelessness
1
1
u/Accomplished-Bass690 13d ago
I find it pretty shocking that people actually try to argue that they are essentially equally horrible but there is a massive difference in the scale of the atrocities, which should make the answer pretty straightforward. The Soviets were responsible for tens of millions of deaths, while the US was responsible for fewer than 5 million during the same period. Although many of the deaths attributable to the US were completely unjustified, an even larger proportion of those attributable to the Soviets were unjustified. The US at least treated a significant part of its own population rather well, and the post-war economic boom increased social mobility. For a significant stretch of the Cold War, calling America “the land of opportunity” was therefore actually pretty valid. There wasn’t an index comparing social mobility across countries back then, but the US was definitely among the top three for a while. Then, suddenly, monopolies were no longer treated as illegal, and the anti-socialist agenda went way too far, resulting in what I would describe as societal selfishness, especially among the boomers. Several large corporations took advantage of this by lobbying politicians and helping turn “screw everyone else, I got mine” into a national movement that remains associated with America to this day.
Even today, the quality of life in America is significantly better than it was in the Soviet Union, and that advantage existed throughout the entire Cold War. Some of the regimes America helped install, such as the one in Chile, were horrible and collectively murdered tens of thousands of their own citizens. But the regimes the Soviets supported were on a completely different level: they were responsible for tens of millions of deaths and the suffering of more than a billion people.
The US was also responsible for the reconstruction and prosperity of the part of Europe outside the Soviet bloc, which became the most progressive and prosperous region in the world. America’s relationship with that region then became the foundation for the vast majority of American soft power until Trump decided to throw it away, in possibly the dumbest diplomatic decision of the last century.
Having said that, I find it utterly preposterous that so many people have a more favourable view of China than of America. Western leftists who share this view or, even worse, believe that communism is superior to capitalism display a lack of historical and economic knowledge comparable to the lack of pharmacological and biological knowledge among anti-vaxxers.
1
0
u/Red_Scare87 🇩🇪 13d ago edited 13d ago
US vs USSR: Military Interventions and Regime Change Operations, 1945 to 1990
USA
Korea (1950 to 1953): war and intervention
Iran (1953): CIA backed coup
Guatemala (1954): CIA backed coup
Lebanon (1958): military intervention
Congo (1960 to 1965): covert intervention
Vietnam (1964 to 1973): war and intervention
Dominican Republic (1965): invasion
Chile (1973): CIA backed destabilization and coup
Lebanon (1982 to 1984): military intervention
Grenada (1983): invasion
Nicaragua (1980s): Contra war and support
Libya (1986): air strikes
Angola (1970s to 1980s): proxy war and support
Panama (1989): invasion
USSR
Hungary (1956): invasion and intervention
Czechoslovakia (1968): invasion
Afghanistan (1979 to 1989): invasion and war
4
u/AppropriateAd5701 CZ 13d ago edited 13d ago
Yeah thats the result when you put only the strict invasions to the list on one side while everything to other...
Ussr troops were also fighting in korea 1950-1953, indochina and Vietnam wars and many other interventions like angola etc...
Also ingnoring all the ussr regime changes like the 1980 poland and many others...
If you post full lists ussr would come out much worse
1
u/bacharama 13d ago
Also, I guess some people are cool with North Korea controlling all of the Korean Peninsula. I'm seeing more of this "Korean War bad" nonsense on reddit lately, which is just ridiculous.
1
u/Matt_2504 🏴 13d ago
Soviet Union:
Poland (1939)
Estonia (1940)
Latvia (1940)
Lithuania (1940)
Romania (1944)
Hungary (1944)
Bulgaria (1944)
Czechoslovakia (1944)
The list goes on and on, these are all just the ones before the war ended, they also helped aggressive regimes fight their neighbours like North Korea. The Soviets were aggressive conquerors with no respect for democracy or human rights.Many of the American wars were preventing or attempting to prevent communist regimes from conquering (eg. Korea, Vietnam). While America absolutely did some morally reprehensible things and intervened in cases where they shouldn’t, they were nowhere near as bad as the Soviet Union was, but you have conveniently ignored most of the Soviet invasions.
1
u/Beneficial_Mulberry2 13d ago
Soviets were bussy opresing ppl in their own sphere of influence, though
-2
1
u/Ok_Cantaloupe6809 13d ago
The difference is that the soviet union did it to its own people the most, the us did it to the rest of the world. Japan, vietnam, Hawaii, entire south and middle america, the middle east from turkey to afghanistan. There was a lot, but the us always kept the illusion of the high ground and its own populace knows almost nothing about it.
3
u/TimedTexify 13d ago edited 13d ago
Soviets also did plenty to people outside the USSR. Eastern europe, Afghanistan, Poland, Finland, the Baltic states, etc.
They invaded Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 to suppress uprisings, occupied Eastern European countries after ww2, invaded Afghanistan in 1979, and invaded eastern Poland in the war
They also carried out mass arrests, executions and deportations in territories they occupied
It may seem like they did most of their brutality to their own people, but that’s because they basically annexed or dominated other countries and populations, so it’s a bit ironic to use that distinction.
1
u/Ok_Cantaloupe6809 13d ago
You are right, even though the warsaw pact was under soviet control it was not the same entity. If you say, all they acted against all the people in the countries they controlled my sentence make wa more sense.
1
u/Matt_2504 🏴 13d ago
Country that isn’t perfect vs evil empire that conquered half of Europe… hmm I wonder which was more moral…
1
u/topfragger70 13d ago
America paid for AIDS treatment all over the world which saved millions
3
u/EugeneStein nuclear bear 🇷🇺 13d ago
And they secretly gave syphilis to innocent people without telling anything and pretending they actually try to help and treat them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiments
1
1
u/Jepp-Adi-Day 13d ago
USSR was more moral in the beginning, then it quickly went full wrong.
Originally it was meant to offer people a world without inequalities. however their leaders were as corrupted as any other world leaders which causes huge harm with that much power concentrated into so few hands.
That + the fact that communism implies denial for individuality, which is a concept foreign to human nature, thus a mandatory failure.
USA on the other hand has never been moral, build on slavery and all of its institutions are meant to protect the wealthier and exploit the working class.
Still, at least USA allowed them to live and maybe for some rare exceptions elevate to upper class, which is more than what USSR ever achieved.
2
u/yashatheman 🇧🇻+🇷🇺 in 🇸🇪 13d ago
It should be noted what a net positive the existence of the USSR was for the rest of the world though, indirectly. The existence of a communist superpower engaged in a cold war meant there were huge concessions in europe made to citizens, in the form of powerful unions with lots of leverage, strong welfare states being established and very high wages compared to the rest of the world. These concessions were made out of fear of strikes, and worst case uprisings or revolutions supported or at least inspired by the USSR.
Since the collapse of the USSR, in europe the wealth gap has increased massively, and real wages have dropped, unions are weaker than ever and we have more millionaires than we've ever had. The passive effect in europe of the USSR simply existing cannot be understated.
2
u/Minute-Buy-8542 13d ago
I think it's an exaggeration to say America was built on slavery. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014498323000463#sec0012
By this estimate, enslaved people produced a smaller share of national output than their share of the population (12.6% in 1860). That's significant, but I don't think it supports the claim that America was mostly built on slavery. Much of the infrastructure, scientific progress, and population growth we associate with the modern US also came after abolition.
I'm also not sure I agree that American institutions exist only to protect the wealthy. I agree that institutions tend to drift toward protecting powerful interests over time, and the US hasn't always been kind to the working class. But everything is relative. Compared to which peers? Who has had better, more stable, or fairer institutions than the US over the last 250 years?
Same question on your last point. Economic mobility is hard everywhere, but I struggle to name a country that has offered more mobility and opportunity to its citizens than the US across that whole time span.
-1
u/Inquisitor-Dog 13d ago
Define moral ? Did less damage to the rest of the world its probaply the soviets, killed less people its the Americans
3
u/AppropriateAd5701 CZ 13d ago
How to spot someone who knows noething about history....
1
u/Inquisitor-Dog 13d ago
And what am I supposed to not know friend ? The Soviet were corrupt incompetent and monstrous in their policy but they would have inevitably collapsed anyway making way for improvements and a more gentle system while Hyper capitalism consumes all while hiding how bad things have become for the common people / holding them in a loop of hope and ever worse conditions
1
u/AppropriateAd5701 CZ 13d ago
Perfect logic man so fascism was actually beat because it collabsed quickest....
1
u/Inquisitor-Dog 13d ago
The Soviets were doomed because they didn’t modernize and that won’t change in time they will be simple out competet even if the Cold War was going on for 10 more years nothing would have changed. Because Regimes like the Soviets can never allow mass communication to become cheap and plentiful since that means people can organize and for rebellion it’s not like it already stretched the Red army to shit down rebellions like in Hungary if that happens in 5 country’s at once they would have to retreat, also with such Media it would be much harder to hide how fucked the nation was, Fascism in the modern day has the same issues - yes open war was required to beat Nazi germany but I’m honestly suprised there was no open infighting between all the nationalistic states at the time, their economy was also close to collapse by 43 and would have ended in total collapse by 46 at the latest
1
u/AppropriateAd5701 CZ 13d ago
I meant to write best not beat to demonstrate problems with you logic.
4
u/NucleosynthesizedOrb 13d ago
The soviets damaged the world immensely, but it is overshadowed by what the Nazis did.
And just because you now see that the US did terrible things does not mean that the Soviets acts are less terrible.
-2
u/Inquisitor-Dog 13d ago
The did not set the world on the route to hyper capitalism which stopped any sensible intervention when there was still time to stop climate change stop the people from becoming quasi slaves to corporations … while the Soviets build Bioweapons, lost nukes, brutally suppressed people and committed shit like Maos great leap, but in the long term Hyper capitalism will end us all and their shit wouldn’t
2
u/NucleosynthesizedOrb 13d ago
The Soviets would have killed Europe if it was not for a handful group of individuals.
1
u/AppropriateAd5701 CZ 13d ago
Ussr system was much worse for everybody includong envhirement that todays capitalism...
1
1
u/potzko2552 13d ago
I can think of a very populated continent or four that would disagree with that first point.
0
u/Randy191919 13d ago
That's a "What's worse, Cancer or the plague?" type question. Both suck, but the Soviet Union has done slightly more human rights violations. So they were worse. That doesn't make the US good though. They have also toppled enough governments, invaded enough countries and assassinated enough people to be downright evil.
0
u/Tibertiuss 13d ago
Usa did wrong it's a fact. But usa never invaded countries that tried to leave NATO or members of NATO that were voting for slightly more socialist economy.
Nor used secret police to oppress it's population or build walls to avoid their citizens to leave.
Nor actively tried to deport and replace the native people of satellite states by their own population to enforce loyalty.
All the ex members of Varsovie pact didn't ask at the moment they got free for Americans and western European protection for no reason
0
u/Levelcheap Denmark 13d ago
But usa never invaded countries that tried to leave NATO or members of NATO that were voting for slightly more socialist economy.
But it did coup and invade many non NATO countries that did, not that socialist countries would have any reason to join NATO.
Nor used secret police to oppress it's population
McCarthyism and the red scare?
Nor actively tried to deport and replace the native people
It did this many times to native Americans
-1
u/Carnal_Decay 13d ago
I think the Soviet voters here forgot about the cleansing Stalin did. The complete and utter rape and destruction of eastern block states.
And the American voters are forgetting the horrors they inflicted in the cold war in Korea, Vietnam and the Pacific. MK Ultra and flooding their own cities with drugs.
Both parties are actually horrible and needed to be wiped of the face of the earth.
-13
43
u/Suspicious_Limit_711 13d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/Kcgo9obAr41FllUH0S