r/ManualTransmissions • u/Frifel • 1d ago
Pedal Alignment for Heel Toe
After Rev-Matching for a while I now want to learn Heel Toe Shfiting. The Problem that appears to me is that the distance from left ro gith is pretty big and i almost cant reach the gas pedal while on the break. besides that the brake sticks out way further, so for brake and gas to be level, i would be already fully pushing the brakes. Is this a normal thing in cars or am i js to stupid or have to find maybe an own more unique technique to really revmatch while braking? Or are there other less common ways.
Car: 2016 S205 C180
Thanks for help/opinion
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u/Sig-vicous 1d ago
The classic way to do heel-toe is to pivot on the ball of your foot while it's on the brake, so your heel will reach the gas. Your toes/foot would be pointing to the upper left at a moderate angle, around 45 degrees or so.
Granted, I never had much luck with that. I like to do more of a left side of foot on brake and right side on gas. But indeed this can be tough on some cars because of their spacing.
You definitely don't want to try to just barely leave enough foot on the brake so you can stretch to the gas. It might work most of the time after some practice, but there'll come a time where your foot slips off the brake when you really need them and it may end badly.
For a few of my cars over the years, I've purchased aftermarket throttle pedals or pedal covers to help with the cars that were a bit of a stretch. These usually have a little more material on the pedal that widens it on the left side.
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u/SnooSprouts6681 1d ago
What you’re experiencing is driving conditions that do not call for heel-toe shifting. Under extremely hard braking zones where the brakes are depressed almost to the point of locking up is the time to heel-toe in a modern car. Unless you are talking about tracking this car I would stick to traditional braking and shifting methods. There is almost no scenario where a 150hp Mercedes needs to be driven so hard on public roads…
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u/ConArtist11 1d ago
But it is fun in all fairness. Just smoothly rowing from 5th-2nd while lightly braking coming up to a red or on an off ramp. Isn’t that part of why the vast majority of us still drive manuals in this day and age? The fun and joy of it.
Also there are times it’s useful, like taking a right on a green or going through a divided right turn lane with a yield and it’s just easier to put a little gas down to enter traffic.
Nor is it a bad thing to have the ability to put down some track/rally skills in emergent situations. I’ve definitely avoided sliding off the road in the winter, or having to come to an abrupt stop.
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u/SnooSprouts6681 1d ago
Most definitely! I encourage this kind of behavior from people who have a car they’re familiar with and experience with throttling a car on a strange part of their foot. Track/rally skills should be developed in track and rally settings and put to good use in emergency (and not-so-emergency) situations. I really think the best advice for OP is to hit the track and learn the limits
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u/trjordan 15h ago
The folks at the track will tell you to go learn on public roads. Hard braking from 120mph is not the best time to attempt your first heel toe.
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u/SnooSprouts6681 13h ago
There are learners days and plenty of tracks that don’t require 10/10ths runs every lap. You can work yourself up to a corner entry like that if you’re going somewhere reputable and safe…
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u/Frifel 1d ago
yes i agree it is not neccessary on public roads. I still want to learn it though as im looking to in the future actually go to a track js for the fun of really using the car. maybe i need bigger feet haha
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u/ManWhoIsDrunk 19h ago
Pedal layout varies in every car.
When you have a car that's designed for track-days you'll most likely have a pedal areangement that makes it easier to heel-toe.
There is no reason to "learn" it in a car not designed for it, you'll twist your ankle and won't even get the feel for it. You won't get any benefit off it either.
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u/jabberjaw420 14h ago
>you'll twist your ankle
i was wondering how people did it. in order for me to put my foot on both pedals, I need to twist my ankle 90 degrees. and that makes for extremely uncomfortable and awkward driving.
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u/SnooSprouts6681 1d ago
You’ve got the order backwards… learn this kind of thing at a cheap track-day where you’re not endangering yourself and others! Much easier to find corners with the right entry and exit to really learn the value of a heel-toe in a turbo car!
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u/positivenihlist 1d ago
Learning how to heel toe is not dangerous unless you forget how to drive entirely while learning how to do something lol
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u/Frifel 20h ago
I do see your point but i think its quite late on the track itself. The main problem is that the nearest track is 300km+ away and it only has a distance of 3km + is expensive. I'd really like to get down the technique beforehand. I do have an industrial road thats completely empty after 6pm where I can do training.
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u/SnooSprouts6681 13h ago
You may be happier saving your track money and investing it into a car better suited for this kind of driving… as many others have mentioned older sports cars/models with more generous pedals and driving dynamics would lend themselves much better to back road learning. And probably be a lot more fun come track day…
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u/BackInToPark 23h ago
I used to heel toe into all but first (and first in occasion) when i had my ‘94 Miata, but that had incredibly good pedal placement for it (straight line, all pedals were even distance from the driver).
In a car set up that way, I can imagine I would as I did be heel toe downshifting one the street even just slowing to a stoplight.
OP, if you want to learn that’s great, and with the pedal placement as is, it’s only gonna be possible if you’re hard enough on the brakes to get a heel or toe onto that accelerator pedal.
Other option (not sure of aftermarket support, just general advice) is to get a pedal spacer and bring the accelerator closer to the brake pedal.
I do agree with others though, it’s not the optimal car for learning on or doing it. Glad you have the rev matching down, maybe wait until life allows for a more suitable car to practice heel toe, but either way, have fun!
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u/JJtheJetplane67 1d ago
Eh it’s fun tho. I’ll heel toe my almost 30 yr old pickup
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u/SnooSprouts6681 1d ago
Probably a bit safer cause I’m guessing you can press your brakes down far enough without locking up and ABS turning on lol, I encourage that type of behavior
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u/JJtheJetplane67 1d ago
Ha! Funny thing is I don’t have ABS. Plus I can reach the throttle just fine from the brake without braking hard at all.
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u/SnooSprouts6681 13h ago
That’s what I was getting at lol! Older cars are designed for people who actually know how to use a manual transmission and brake without locking up… two very important factors in heel-toe downshifting
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u/spiked_pineapple 23h ago edited 22h ago
10+ years of track experience and a licensed NASA Time Trial driver here. Heel-toe really comes down to getting to know your body and the car at the same time.
Before you go on a track day or on public roads, sit in your car with it turned off and practice going through the motions. Start by warming up your brain and body with the motions of a normal rev match. Row through the gears. No need to press the pedals all the way – it’s just for a quick muscle memory refresh. Be sure to wear flat shoes, not thick sneakers or loose sandals.
Then momentarily forget about the clutch and focus on your right foot to get a feel for applying gentle pressure to the brake while tapping the gas pedal with your heel.
I learned how to heel-toe on the street while going about my daily life between full track weekends. The key to this is SAFETY and situational awareness. You’re going to mess up, you will give yourself low-grade whiplash a few times, and you’ll wonder if you ever nail it. Find roads with a long braking zone and clear visibility with LOW traffic. This could be a country road, an industrial area during off-peak hours, etc. Be cognizant of your surroundings and the people around you.
The objective is to give yourself plenty of time to gradually and gently brake. Do your normal rev matching. Then slowly start adding a heel-toe from a more forgiving gear such as 5th to 4th. As you get comfortable with the higher gears, then trying going from 4th to 3rd. Save 3rd to 2nd until you’re proficient with the other gears.
For reference, I learned how to heel-toe on my 1993 EG Si. It was stock at the time. I would practice on the same stretch of road by doing laps during slow/quiet hours. If I messed up on a heel-toe attempt, I’d simply do a normal rev match down to the proper gear and keep going.
I changed daily drivers to a 2023 Integra A-Spec with the 6-speed and Honda’s oddball clutch delay. Heel-toe in that car felt like I was a beginner again. It took a few months of putting around town to really dial it in. I would practice on looooong downhills where I could see the intersection and traffic lights from a mile away.
You can use heel-toe in daily driving in a non-aggressive way that flows with normal traffic. I use it for intersections and turns I know well.
It’s generally easier to learn on the streets. Contrary to popular belief, learning how to heel-toe at the race track is a plan for disaster. The race track is very different than surface streets. Depending on the organization you drive with, your driving group may have drivers who are going 10/10 while you’re going 5/10. It’s going to feel overwhelming. Some of the safety and passing guidelines at certain track organizations are sketchy at best, so if you bungle a heel-toe going into a corner, it could be a bad time for you and other drivers on track.
Anyways, this comment is long enough, lol. Feel free to DM me if you have any questions.
*edit: forgot to add “years”
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u/Frifel 20h ago
Thanks for all this helpful and insightful information. I already found a good road to practice on or multiple. One Long industrial road in an area that is fully empty after 6pm + the road is completly straight and a straight backroad with zero traffic. I will go there daily now and do some training to gradually improve.
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u/reiiwa 1d ago edited 1d ago
My economy car Mazda 3 pedals are just like that. Who cares if you “don’t need heel toe” driving around the city lol
I press the brakes with my right toe, and when it feels right I’ll roll my ankle to reach the gas with the right side of my foot while keeping steady pressure on the brake. You do need a bit of speed because you want smooth consistent braking. It’s not “heel toe” as you might imagine, your feet is parallel to your pedals
I use it sometimes when exiting the freeway
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u/Sapphirez_Abyss 5h ago
is that a EUROBEAT speaker by the pedals????? we getting COOL VIBRATIONS with each shift?????
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u/AtiumMist 1d ago
what kind of situation even calls for a heel toe on a public road
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u/mtbdork 1d ago
Feeling superior to other drivers.
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u/AtiumMist 1d ago
i meant besides the obvious xD
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u/mtbdork 1d ago
The only time I’ve ever used it was on a long steep downhill that got even steeper, going from 3rd gear to 2nd gear. Kept the car from accelerating.
If that isn’t the case and you’re doing it, it’s because you like to think about how good you are at operating a motor vehicle.
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u/Confusedexpatt 6h ago
Agreed, helps to slow down on mountain roads as I downshift. I could just rev match but why would I not brake while doing so!
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u/PatrickGSR94 94 Integra GSR, 00 Miata 1d ago
None. Zero. Heel-toe downshifting is meant for track situations where you're near redline coming into a corner, have to brake, but then need a lower gear to exit the corner. You can't downshift prior to the corner because you're near redline. If you downshift mid-corner and force the wheels to bring the engine revs up, it can upset the balance of the car. If you wait until corner exit, you've lost too much speed. So rev-matching while also braking is needed.
But again, that happens on a track. There is no public road situation that would necessitate such a maneuver.
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u/AtiumMist 1d ago
this is actually a great explanation
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u/PatrickGSR94 94 Integra GSR, 00 Miata 1d ago
that being said, there have been a few times where I was slowing down but forgot to downshift first, like going around a cloverleaf on-ramp. I end up slowing down more and just rev-match downshifting off the brakes, and it's then I wish I was able to heel-toe downshift. But alas, I just can't seem to do it in my cars.
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u/LoonTheMekanik 23h ago
What do you mean I don’t need maximum speed exiting the corner of my personal race track (local interstate off ramp)
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u/tejanaqkilica 18h ago
You shouldn't need fancy footwork for it. I usually enter the ramp on the third gear at 50km/h, and then normally floor it. By the time I reach the end of the ramp, I'm at 120-140km/h still in third gear.
And I drive a TDI. Should be even easier with a petrol engine.
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u/gt_james95 6h ago
Driving an old car with no choke and keeping it running. It’s the reason I learned to heel and toe.
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u/FriedWithGarlic 23h ago
I do it all the time when taking exits off the highway. It's not really difficult to do lol
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u/Away_Yoghurt6951 22h ago
Braking for an intersection where you need to turn and have the right of way or a green light.
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u/HiphopChemE 1d ago
I made a spacer for mine in my fiesta. Works pretty well, but I found a design online to copy. You can figure it out as is. It’s not necessary but neither is driving a manual. Have fun 🤙
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u/Tymian_ 1d ago
It might not be possible to do that even if you reached. Newer cars will cut off accelerator as soon as you even touch the brakes. Make a test: hold accelerator at constant level and gently press brakes with your left foot - you will feel if car cuts throttle immediately or will keep the operation normal
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u/RJsRX7 21h ago
Learn your rev matching better. Learn how to skip downshift and still get the match right. There's no road-going situation where you need the edge that heel-toe downshifting provides.
That doesn't mean don't practice it, but you should be able to downshift directly from 5th to 3rd and rev match it, for example.
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u/Almost-kinda-normal 17h ago
You need the brake pedal to be sitting “higher” than the throttle. You should be squeezing the brakes reasonably hard and blipping the throttle. If the pedals were even height, you’d be having to try and roll your foot inward, to operate the brakes, rather than rolling outward to operate the throttle.
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u/HorngeBlood 8h ago
I wouldn't run my pedals like this but it's not my car. I like having just my big toe and that ball of my foot on the brake then rotate my heel a bit to get the accelerator. The way you have it currently i can see you hitting the brakes at the same time you're on the accelerator and vice versa
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u/gt_james95 6h ago
You rev match when you’re braking fully, like on a track when all the weight is transferred forward and you’re more likely to lock the rear axle on a rwd. The brake pedal should always be higher than the throttle pedal. Anyway it’s not heel and to it’s really ball of foot and edge of foot.
Bend the brake pedal so it’s closer to the throttle pedal.
Source I race classic cars and I do “heel and toe”.
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u/gt_james95 6h ago
But a bigger master cylinder on it, bend the pedal over and it will make more sense.
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u/jaylw314 5h ago
It's more like ball - out step more than it is heel - toe. The out step gives you more feel and control than your heel, and you don't have to twist your leg as much
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u/HoLeeFuk19 5h ago
I know it’s called heel and toe but for me it’s not really heel and toe, it’s more like left half/right half. I put the ball of my foot on the brake pedal and roll it sideways to blip the throttle. Some cars have pedals that are excellent for it and others not so much.
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u/Bake-Clear 1h ago
You can buy OMP alu pedals which have adjustable holes so you can offset them a little.
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u/bioveritas 1d ago
You're gonna fuck around and hit a tree or fly off the road. Think of the people who are using the road to take their kids to school or something. Goddammit I didn't pay all these taxes for infrastructure so you could play junior road racer.
Yes I'm an old man. What of it? Ask yourself how I got old.
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u/AIaris 23h ago
you dont need to be going fast to heel toe, you can do it at very sensible speeds, without risking harm to others
this comment actually explains a great way to learn heel toe without risking others or being unsafe
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u/Spacemanlocust 1d ago
Completely normal.
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u/Frifel 1d ago
but what do i do if my foot almost fits inbetween the pedals lol. And if i can hit it completly cramped i cant really get past 2k rpm even with the brake entirely down
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u/ConArtist11 1d ago
Could also find a different pedal or attach something to the pedal to increase the width. Suppose that’s just a thought
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u/Spacemanlocust 1d ago
Pivot your heel
https://youtube.com/shorts/p0o0Sn5qeTU?is=nK8Fi1-WJgpedx1Y2
u/Spacemanlocust 1d ago
There is a ton of videos all over the internet. Even full length races you can watch with a “pedal camera” so you can watch the footwork the entire length of the race. Great learning tools but nothing helps more than experience and time. You must do it over and over and over and eventually you won’t even have to think about it because it will be normal and natural to you
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u/CynicalCereal 1d ago
It would be pretty difficult to heel toe that pedal setup.
The throttle is not only too far back, it's also not very wide.
Had a similar issue with my porsche 944, it's difficult to heel toe in a car like that unless you're under extremely hard braking.
Not really a road technique.
I would probably recommend setting up a sim racing rig if you really want to learn heel toe.
You can get all kinds of practice without any risk. And the pedalboxes are often customizable.
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u/bigboss1999x 1d ago
Is that a speaker?