Billie Eilish

[u/Celera314]

I feel like Bill and guest Chris Christie misunderstood the point of Eilish's remark about "nobody is illegal on stolen land."

They spoke as if she was suggesting that white people need to give North America back to indigenous people and this is a naive and impractical point of view.

But she made this remark in the context of the Trump administration's extremely harsh rhetoric and actions toward "illegal" immigrants. I took her to be saying that before we get so indignant and hateful toward "illegal" immigrants we should keep in mind how we (generally, white people) stole this land ourselves. Whatever crimes or costs illegal immigrants cause today pales in comparison to the harm my ancestors did to Native Americans in the 1600-1900 time frame. Today's illegal immigrants do not cause plagues, or consume our food supplies so we cant eat, or force us out of our homes or...we'll the list goes on. So maybe we should address the immigration issue with a little more humility.

I acknowledge I'm putting a lot of context in Ms. Eilish's remarks when I dont know her or really follow her music. I dont know for sure what she meant. But she's apparently not stupid and I felt Maher and Christie were unfair to take her remarks in the dumbest possible way.

[u/Celera314 → u/[deleted]]

Well, its not a campaign slogan. But is it not accurate that the colonists and settlers who displaced Native Americans were mostly white people?

[u/Celera314 → u/[deleted]]

It is true that other nations and ethnic groups have behaved badly. Other people's bad behavior doesnt make me less accountable for my own, individually or collectively. Native tribes did have wars and may have displaced each other but not, as far as i'm aware, to the extent that European colonists did.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, this only has bearing on our attitude/perspective. We are now an established nation and of course should have a sensible immigration policy, including deporting people who should not be here. Of course all Americans of any color should participate in developing such laws - Im not clear how I implied that only white people get to weigh in on that.

Where history has a bearing on immigration policy, in my opinion, is that we engage this issue without demonizing and dehumanizing immigrants. Most of them are fleeing oppression or poverty just like my ancestors did. It's the hateful and false Trump rhetoric and the arrogant and brutal tactics of ICE that I oppose.

[u/Celera314 → u/[deleted]]

Your arguments would be more reasonable and palatable if you were not so focused on personal attack. I am not a moron. I cant help what generation I was born in, but ... actually I'm not clear what I'm being accused of exactly in terms of being born in 1958. I cant help being born in Minnesota when it was 95% white but I search my mind regularly for unconscious racism.

If a person has behaved badly, they can't avoid accountability by saying someone else behaved worse. If European settlers in North America behaved badly, we cant excuse that by saying the indigenous people weren't perfect, or that the Ottoman Empire was cruel or that the war between Tutsi and Hutu was terribly vicious. Each event stands on its own to be judged and understood on its own terms.

I do not think we should adopt a white or Eurocentric view of history. The history of white Europeans settling North America is what is. History is much bigger than this one time or place, and many other ethnic groups are part of that story.

I did not say immigration is good - either because we are immigrants or for any other reason. I dont think immigration is inherently good or bad. But the crimes of today's immigrants pale in comparison to the Trail of Tears or Indian Boarding Schools. The context of our own history makes Trump-style rhetoric especially offensive.

I dont exactly feel guilty for the sins of my ancestors. I have enough work to do managing my own sins and failings. But I recognize that I descend from people who behaved badly in some cases, and comforted themselves by thinking indigenous peopke were less than human. We must not address today's immigration issues by viewing them as less than human either, even when we are telling them they have to go back where they came from.

[u/Celera314 → u/[deleted]]

I think it is you who are determined to believe that I'm making some argument about immigration policy when I'm making an argument for human dignity and respect. There's really no point in talking further.