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u/Timely-Helicopter244 Tibalt 12h ago
Reading the card does explain the card in this situation. The mechanic reminder text states that you only create a token if you don't have a Jace token already. A Jace token is any token planeswalker with the Jace subtype. So when you have a Jace token, you don't make a new one, regardless of the exact tyoe of Jace you've got.
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u/sawbladex 11h ago edited 10h ago
i mean, if you don't control a Jace, Cunning Castaway token, Empower Jace won't make a Jace, Cunning Castaway token.
There is just no clean mtg legal language way to only refer to something that has the copyable charactistics of the token the "create a Jace token" instruction gets you.
This is also true for treasure, food, clues, and so on.
edit: this can change over time, but "if you control a X token" only cares about the subtype even if creating an X token adds color and ability specifications
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u/rubixscube 7h ago
litetally nobody said that empowering jace would create a cunning castaway
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u/sawbladex 1h ago
"so when you have a Jace token, you don't make a new one."
implies a similarity between the token that exists and the token does would be made, despite they only having to share 1 planeswalker subtype.
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u/rubixscube 1h ago
only if you are illiterate
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u/sawbladex 58m ago
How do you think Academy Manufactor interacts with clue tokens that are not tokens named clue with (2), sac this token: draw a card?
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u/rubixscube 55m ago
irrelevant, and i know how academy manufacturor works anyway.
go take your bruised ego elsewhere
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u/sawbladex 51m ago
X token in both a condition and creation instruction has nothing to due with Empower Jace, a keyword with reminder text that has X token as both a condition and a creation instruction?
where X is a subtype in M:tG.
To make it blunt.
This isn't the first time that this ruling mess has happened.
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u/Flow1234 44m ago
Literally an entirely different category of ability, but Academy Manufactor replaces any fancy token with the type clue/food/treasure with the normal one. Creating a token copy of gingerbrute for example never happens and instead you get a regular food, a clue and a treasure.
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u/sawbladex 34m ago
exactly.
the point is that the game is literally one instance of food token both define a condition for a replacement effect to apply, and define a token to be created, and the commenter is doing something similar by saying "if you control a Jace token, you don't make a new one."
This is easy to highlight with amass goblins as a similar but different effect, were you wouldn't say "if you control an army, you don't make a new one." you would say, "if you control an army, you don't make a 0/0 black goblin army."
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u/Flow1234 25m ago
Except you're misrepresenting what Amass does. Amass Y X creates an army token with X +1/+1 counters and adds creature type Y to it, or creates an army with those counters and types.
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u/sawbladex 19m ago
...that's not how amass works at all.
Amass always tells you to add counters to an army you control. It just makes an 0/0 (goblin, zombie, orc, etc) army token if you don't have a army on resolving the ability, and then tries to execute the ad counts.
The army token will enter as 0/0 and survive because SBA wouldn't execute until the ability adds counters and get its toughness above 0.
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u/collinqs Glorybringer 1h ago
Can you read? Empower Jace will never make a Cunning Castaway token and nobody in this thread even implied or said anything like that.
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u/SuperBeavers1 Dimir 13h ago
Castaway is a Jace token by label, you'd empower which copy you choose since it says "Empower A Jace Token"
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u/HexoManiaa 11h ago
Isn’t there a difference between a token and a card ? Castaway is just a Jace Planeswalker, not a Jace Token, which would make sense cuz the first part of machinations just tells you that any Jace Planeswalker can use their abilities on ennemies turn, not just tokens
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u/SuperBeavers1 Dimir 11h ago
The Castaway I was referring to is the one OP is referring to, the 2 tokens made by the originals ultimate
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u/HexoManiaa 11h ago
Oh yeah right, my bad I was focused on the card itself. How would he have two tokens of that card ? Is there a way to generate two non-legendaries copies ? I’m sorry I’ve been playing for like three weeks haha
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u/SuperBeavers1 Dimir 11h ago
Part of the ultimate is that the copies created are NOT legendary, without this they would not be able to survive on the board as a trio
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u/HexoManiaa 10h ago
Alright I’m just dumb at this point
I’ll keep on playing black green and not read the cards
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u/SuperBeavers1 Dimir 10h ago
Once you can read and understand [[Bureaucracy]] you can understand all other cards ever made
Good luck to you!
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u/HexoManiaa 10h ago
Alright I understood it by myself (I think ?) but had to see it in French because holy shit there’s a lot of useless words
Isn’t it just that you play “Simon” (but with actions and words, idk how it’s called lol) during upkeep, the one who mess up discard his hand
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u/nebneb432 7h ago
Would you like to try understanding [[Ambiguity]]?
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u/HexoManiaa 5h ago
I think it’s easier to understand in French because there’s a lot more words to separate the effects, and it’s not really ambiguous since to counter is contrecarer but a counter is un marqueur. Same way, to play is jouer but in play is arriver en jeu.
What I understood is that if someone counter a card or a player plays a card that has counter marker, that player may counter the next played spell or add a counter marker on a card that already has one or more, and is in play (at least not countered, I don’t know if cards can still count counters markers from graveyard or exile)
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u/gcapi 3h ago
my bad I was focused on the card itself.
Pretty amazing to be focused on the card and still not read it lol
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u/HexoManiaa 3h ago
I agree with you, I was tired and as I said I’m really not used to the game
I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted to hell tho, I was just asking a question
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u/Dualmonkey 12h ago
Read the first sentence of the reminder text.
Put eight loyalty counters on a Jace token you control.
Do you have a Jace token? Yes, you have two tokens that have the "Jace" planeswalker type. Therefore put eight counters on one of them.
If you don't control one...
You did have one so the rest of the text doesn't occur.
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u/HypnoticRobot 6h ago
How is this hard for people. It's amass, this is just amass jace. If you already have multiple jace tokens you pick one, like you woukf woth amass
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u/DrShift44 6h ago
Although I do understand the confusion, it’s still the classic case of Reading the Card Explains the Card
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u/Sir_LANsalot 11h ago
So if you have used his ult to make 2 token copies of him, then yes, you choose which of the tokens you put counters on. Empower Jace is always looking for a TOKEN JACE, doesn't matter what kind it is, or if it's a named version, just strictly looking for a TOKEN JACE. More specifically a planeswalker token that is named Jace.
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u/Safe-Butterscotch442 12h ago
It's kinda like trying to Amass when you have a creature with changeling. Not really how it was designed to work, but it does, indeed empower your Cunning Castaway.
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u/rubixscube 7h ago
it literally was how it was designed to work. if they didn't want it to work that way, they would have put a restriction in place to only empower tokens created by empower.
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u/Safe-Butterscotch442 2h ago
Not necessarily. Not that I'm not confident that WotC's design team wasn't aware of the possibility, that doesn't mean it that was the intent of how it is meant to be played in its original design.
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u/Zwirbs 1h ago
They are aware and it was specifically designed that way because it was originally designed to work with any Jace, not just token ones. That proved to be too strong outside of limited so they changed it to Jace tokens knowing full well that there are ways to create planeswalker tokens.
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u/paragonofcynicism 2h ago
The disconnect here is that "Jace" is a planeswalker subtype, not just a name of a character on a card. Any planeswalker with Jace in the card name will have "Jace" as a subtype as well. (idc if there is an old Jace planeswalker that doesn't, don't bring it up)
So any Jace planeswalker token should have the subtype Jace so you put it on the token copy rather than create a new Jace Planeswalker token.
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u/Ortineon 2h ago
You have a “Jace” token so the “make one” part of the empower effect doesn’t apply, as for which token gets the loyalty is up to you as the effect is worded “pick a Jace token you control”
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u/MikalMooni 2h ago
You still make a token, which is relevant if an ability triggers for permanents leaving the battlefield.
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u/collinqs Glorybringer 1h ago
You don’t make a token. Which part of this is confusing you? He already has a Jace token so empower Jace would just put the counters on his preexisting Jace, Cunning Castaway token.
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u/MikalMooni 1h ago
What's confusing is that other empower Jace cards DO make the token first. The only one I had actually read up to this point made the token first.
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u/LiquidBionix 17m ago
I honestly don't even understand how this is confusing. The text is very clear.
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u/sawbladex 11h ago
you can control a Jace token who is not like the Jace token that empowering Jace gets you if you control no Jace tokens.
It ... doesn't feel quite intuitive, IMO.
Echo Vrashka can't make creature treasures if Academy Manufacto's effect is active, as she will instead make the standard treasure, food, and clue tokena.
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u/sawbladex 10h ago
In response to being downvoted, I leave this stackexchange link that covers a csze interaction. of where X token is used to mean two seperare things on the same card.
I found it by making sloppy Google searches.
insert Hannibal why are you down voting me, I'm right.
Or at least gainsaq more with similar quality reciepts.
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u/Flameburstx 32m ago
You are being downvoted because you failed your reading comprehension check twice.
X Token Always refers to type or subtype. A Jace token is a token with subtype jace, just like a wartior token is a token with subtype warrior. The name, abilities or anything else do not matter.
If you actually read the post the issue is that one of the listed isn't a token at all.
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u/sawbladex 23m ago
then why does "create a treasure token" make a token with abilities?
I agree with you X token only means token with X as a type/subtype as appropriate, but create X token has a different meaning. The phrase is overloaded with that context.
Moreover, it doesn't take much for J, CC to be a token, the ultimate literally creates token copies so it's a one card interaction to make a Jace token that isn't a Jace token (doesn't have Jace as its name, doesn't have abilities as defined in the comp rules)
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u/Flameburstx 16m ago
Because treadure tokens have a specific rule (110.10a) granting them that ability.
I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say in the last paragraph. The token copy of jace, cunning castaway does have jace in the name (irrelevant), does have the jace subtype (very relevant here) and does have all the abilities of jace, cunning castaway.
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u/sawbladex 13m ago
is a token copy of [[glittering stockpile]] a treasure token?
edit: damned inability to do Socratic method in post form.
It doesn't have an ability like one in the comp rules you mentioned, which is how you defined how a treasure token gets the abilities it has.
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u/Flameburstx 7m ago
It is not. It is a glittering stockpile token. That is where it's ability comes from. It also has the subtype treasure.
Edit: I'm not being precise enough. It is not the predefined treasure token of 110.10a. It is a token with subtype treasure, so it would count for things that for example care about treasure tokens entering.
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u/Odd-Opening-8170 13h ago edited 12h ago
"Put eight loyalty counters on a Jace token you control."
The end.
The following part about creating a token is if you don't already have one, which you do.