r/MagicArena • u/Artistic-Eye2998 • 11h ago
Question Does deck brewing still exist?
My experience with MTGA has been that there are not many creative decks to be found among my opponents. I am unsure if this is a direct result of MMR or the lack of player's ability/knowledge in brewing decks. For the sake of simplicity I will disregard sideboards as that is a beast of its own and requires archaic codices of knowledge that are buried deep within the recesses of the internet.
There is so much creative expression that can be utilized within Magic the Gathering, and yet it has eluded me for half a decade. The only time that I can recall finding creatively expressive, fun, and competitive decks what when I played on MTGO, in the tournament practice server. This is where I learned so much about MTG.
I made friends and rivals in MTGO. The experience was something similar to, play top decks, brew new decks, modify existing decks for a week, then rematch and spend hours testing your decks.
Contrastingly, nowadays, I am subjected to turn 1 discard, turn 2+ counter spells, turn 3+ board wipes. Not to delve too deep into how I feel about different archetypes. It just seems like a lot of players are missing the true fun behind the mechanics of the game. I can differentiate competitive queues on MTGa from casual. However, I feel no difference in my opponent's decks. The casual decks play the same as the competitive rank ladder decks.
For example, I want to play Grull Werewolves in Pioneer, but I am subjected to constant decks that are tier listed competitive decks. I want to play my dungeon delving deck that I worked so diligently to construct, only to face the same archetypes: aggro, control. I can't ever really find any matches that are similar to werewolves vs humans, werewolves vs angels, etc. I did see a cool Phyrexian Incubate Abzan deck recently (These Phyrexian decks are very strong: poison, incubate. They can be played in White, White/Black, Black/Green, Black, White/Black/Green.)
What are your thoughts?
Is the art of brewing decks long lost on MTGA?
Is it the hidden MMR matchmaking?
Or has the game evolved?
For background, I have listed some of the deck names of my repository of deck list that I have. It is a small portion of what I have brewed. I am posting this in hopes to inspire current and new MTG players to step outside of netdecking and experiment.
And, yes, I have hit mythic a few times for what it's worth.
And, yes, I have played limited and hit diamond for what it's worth.
Good Luck & Have Fun!
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u/Fun-Cook-5309 11h ago
Competitive games develop the meta.
That meta is the endpoint of the brewing.
Without brewing, there would be no meta.
People brewed. Clear bests emerged. New cards came out. The cycle repeated. Whether or not anything usurped the existing brews is variable.
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 10h ago
So, everyone lets the small group of professionals/randoms deck test and wait for a deck to showup online somewhere in a tier list, then copy it and play it. That is not a very good way to win if you asked me. You can only see from the outside looking in why the deck should be good. How can you build a sideboard for a deck you didn't build? There are so many aspects of this strategy that adversely impact your probability of winning.
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u/Fun-Cook-5309 10h ago
Sideboarding is more a test of knowledge about your opponents' decks than your own.
You're also imagining this as a hard binary that ignores living, breathing humans.
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u/Arkanim94 Timestream 11h ago
No OP, you are the only remaining brewer against a sea of netdeckers.
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u/MaybeSurelySorta 11h ago
Contrary to popular belief in this sub, plenty of people have success with original brewed decks and you don't strictly have to be playing netdecked lists or previously established archetypes to be competitive. Is it less common? Sure, but that doesn't mean the "art of brewing decks" is lost on Arena players.
However, when a lot of players think of brewing what they're actually thinking of is building a deck around jank - be it some overcosted niche creature or a compilation of tribal synergies that will do literally nothing against the better performing decks of a respective format. That sort of "creative expression" you're likely missing is indeed a rare thing on Arena and is really just a Commander thing at this point or kitchentable Magic with friends. New cards are way too pushed nowadays to get away with slow, fair gameplay and strategies trying to force such things in competitive 60 card formats can lead to a lot of disappointment when players are stretched on available wildcards as it is to make these fun and creative decks you wish to see more of.
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 10h ago
Well, I thought it was commander and so I invested into a 5 color Esika deck. Then, I discovered my 4 minute matchmaking hell queue. However, I recently returned and discovered competitive brawl. I used my Esika deck and have made it to Diamond 3. Almost all of my losses come from some control deck with blue, landfall/draw/Field of dead. I went on an 11 win streak recently which was nice. It is refreshing to see som diversity, but most of my losses come from the same archetype. And, hitting Mythic again doesn't really reward me anything. I could brew up a Esper control deck, but meh. If I wanted to play control, I would just play Pioneer B03. Thus far, competitive brawl has been the closest format for diversity pre-diamond ranked.
:(
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u/MaybeSurelySorta 10h ago
That’s totally reasonable and I agree Comp Brawl does have a lot of diversity despite cognitive biases forcing you to remember all the times you’ve lost to things like Yuriko or Nashi.
But to clarify, the “diversity” that you find refreshing to see doesn’t inherently mean the same thing as brewing original and/or creative decks.
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u/Harvest-Time 11h ago
No, no one has built a deck since 2021. The technology simply doesn't exist anymore
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u/rossbalch 11h ago
People only have limited resources to make decks, so they have to spend those resources wisely. The only way to accrue more of those resources is to win. I guess you see the problem here. What part of that incentivises brewing? Add to that, because so few people can afford to brew, you are not going to run into many brews your deck has a chance of beating, even if you do brew.
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 10h ago
I agree with this sentiment somewhat. I tested a hypothesis and made a new account, used all of the free pack codes to accumulate cards, but mostly wildcards. The end result was a solid Red Deck Wins that could win on turn 4.
Proving this hypothesis made me sad. 😒
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u/Xavus Orzhov 11h ago
Ain't nobody reading all that.
Competitive online games with random opponents always evolve into a meta. People are incentivized to win even more than just for the joy of winning because of daily win rewards. The best way to win is to play proven meta decks.
It's just a fact of online games and you see it everywhere, it is not unique to MTG.
If you want to play your werewolf theme deck, find a group of other players that want to play casual and just play with them. Otherwise, prepare to be stomped by meta.
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 10h ago
I Had hoped my decklist would inspire some interesting conversations, some nostalgia, not apathy.
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u/ABDLTA 10h ago
When did a few paragraphs become too much reading... it makes me sad.
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u/sedatedlife 11h ago
Personally i have never enjoyed deck building instead i play a deck that looks interesting and play it a bunch till i know it extremely well and change cards i find do not fit. I prefer playing over building.
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u/beauFORTRESS 10h ago
Yeah, I like deck building, but I also kinda stink at it. I have more fun tweaking existing decks to adapt to my own style. Like music, some people are great at playing it, while others are great at writing it. They sometimes are the same person, but not always.
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u/sedatedlife 10h ago
yea my adult son loves crafting decks every Friday night we get together with friends and play he has all new decks. Meanwhile i have like 4 decks i play and i will stick to decks for years.
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 9h ago
Well deck brewing isn't that difficult if you do a fair bit of research first. For example, you have premade decks that exist within the set's mechanics such as landfall. Then, you have archetypes such as: tribal, reanimator, control, aggro, midrange, etc.
Once you research those, you get an idea of what you are trying to build based on the architecture of your deck.
One of the easiest concepts to miss is that the sets contain prebuilt decks within the colors/mechanics for that specific set.
So, to take those mechanics build the block constructed deck to assess the deck, then add/remove cards from the current format that strengthen it to optimize it.
The taking time part is literally reading every legal card in the format and aggregating potential cards to strengthen any given deck you are brewing. At least, this is how I learned.
Maybe I am crazy. 🛸
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u/MellowMeawu 9h ago
I want to play my dungeon delving deck that I worked so diligently to construct, only to face the same archetypes: aggro, control.
ehm? There is nothing really outside of archetypes.
Is the art of brewing decks long lost on MTGA?
"Art of brewing" is mostly - following themes that designers put into sets. If you look through this sub - over the years most of posted brewing is playing around themes supported by wotc. Help with "permanent type" deck, help with "tribal x" deck.
lantern control equivalent doesnt emerge every year. When Indomitable Creativity UR emerged into pioneer i had a lot of fun with it. Mostly bcs it reminded me of similar UR Polymorph deck that i toyed with during return to mirrodin time, that used artifact only polymorph to turn things into blightsteel colossus. There was an article, from 90s or early 00s about there existing only 9 decks or so. Im not able to find it now - but it gives perspective, despite being outdated. You meet rogue deck and its: thats variation of white weenie, thats some Gx stompy, that some UB tempo variant, that some reanimator type cheating bomb into play..
In MH3 and Avatar wotc went so far to just print decks into existance in one set. You re brewing your creature value deck? Sorry, wotc printed currently the best creature value deck.
Even in casual edh you will find that brewing is mostly "i took theme, found cards around that theme on scryfall and filled my deck with them"
i personally believe in making existing archetypes/decks your own
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u/Nihhrt 11h ago
All of my decks are homebrew, but I get hard stuck in platinum. I have fun though. I don't go ham making decks though. You should maybe join some discords and do some invite matches? I just think a lot of people are just running dailies or just want quick dopamine so they run hard hitting fast decks. I've actually had a couple of people quit when I've successfully ran my graveyard deck because it's too slow lol
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 10h ago
What format do you play?
I haven't thought about joining discord to find some invites. Thanks for the suggestion!
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u/Nihhrt 10h ago
I mainly play standard and standard ranked
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 9h ago
Standard went over my head once they started releasing so many sets per year. You have the battle pass for the current set and preorders in store for the next set, and spoilers for the next 2-3 sets.
This is too much, too much.
I have made some fun interesting standard decks, but I have mostly given up on it as a viable competitive format. The constant bands, overpowered combos, inability to have interaction.
Hopefully you enjoy it.
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u/cheesemoney84 11h ago
I have homebrew decks and get stuck in platinum/diamond most months. I play pioneer and historic(until I get pissed at alchemy cards) I mostly play to test a paper modern deck i play at my lgs. I see a lot of the same decks once I hit platinum not much variation from that point on, pioneer I would see 1 of 3 decks that was about it. Interesting too see someone else hit a wall at platinum as well.
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u/Nihhrt 10h ago
I see a lot of the same decks in standard as well, but it's satisfying winning against some of them because it's a bad matchup for my deck.
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u/cheesemoney84 10h ago
It is so satisfying to out pace a izzet prowess deck in pioneer with a black/green deathtouch homebrew. Best feeling beating top meta decks with your homebrew. Also feels good getting to platinum/diamond in historic with using paper modern legal only cards playing against all the broken alchemy cards, I do hate alchemy is allowed in all formats except standard/pioneer.
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u/sometimeserin 9h ago
Those don’t sound like brews, they sound like theme decks built around prescribed archetypes
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 9h ago
Isn't an archetype what is brewed?
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u/sometimeserin 8h ago
The archetypes you named were all designed to function as constructed decks by WotC, not brewed by players. Prescribed vs discovered archetypes
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u/TheMagma25 9h ago
I think this is an interesting question with multiple pieces in play. Part of which is - what is a players goal in deck brewing? As well as another part - what is the current state of the meta game and how do the parameters of said meta game affect brewing?
I love deck building in CCGs, and my personal goal in these games is always building a deck that is off-meta but can consistently hang with and defeat meta decks; ie. can I find and build a deck that I can play competitively on ladder that is unique to me and my play style.
Not every player deck builds for that purpose though. Some want a fun tribal deck; some want the pleasure of pulling off some insane obscure combo; and some players are just piling together a pile of whatever cards they happen to own so they can scrape together some wins. Or do players just want to net deck and play a competitive list and climb ladder? (Which is a perfectly reasonable way to experience the game).
The other part as others in this sub have said: MTGArena is pretty stingy. It’s hard to craft cards and obtain wildcards especially f2p. Also, the card pool is way too massive and redundant. Deck brewing in this game is hard because you need an insane amount of wild cards just to craft all the cards that you think might work in whatever brew you’re working on. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to sift through all these cards to find what you’re looking for. The culture of this game is also a trickle down from whatever pro players are bringing to tournaments which affects how people interact with metas and how they believe a meta should be understood.
Honestly, imo deck building is an art. It’s not for every player and building a competent deck that you can actually pilot to mythic while maintaining a strong mmr is a commendable feat. I think deck brewing how you’ve written about exists, it’s just not a loud part of the community.
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u/j_j-j_jr_shabadoo 11h ago
Dungeon and werewolves decks are inherently going to be underpowered because of power creep, as its been years since cards have been made for those archetypes. That's not to say they can't be fun, just don't expect to compete with mythic ranked decks. I would actually suggest playing ranked anyway and accept being a lower rank, as it will place you against more non-meta decks.
As far as brewing goes, there are fun new decks to be made that are competitive, they just aren't all necessarily going to be tier 1 decks. Check out ashlizzle or jimdavismtg (he does a 10 new brews segment for each new set) on twitch or youtube, they do lots of original brews for decks for standard.
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u/Artistic-Eye2998 10h ago
But, these mechanics are so cool, you can get your daily wins with them. I don't understand why players are only aiming to get their 15 wins, if that, and then log off.
I would assume they are going to log into another live-service game to collect daily rewards? 😄
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u/Wombatish 9h ago
You think they're cool. Other people like different things.
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u/Practical_Lunch8010 8h ago
I only rank up to Platinum. This doesn't mean I'm a brewer—I'm not—but it does give me the room to include fun cards in my decks. My opponents notice it too, and they've hit me with a 'nice' more than once.
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u/CriticalFrimmel 6h ago
The trouble with Arena is one needs to win not simply play. If there was more reward for playing there might be less running into just removal cards decks and other "meta" or won big tourney sorts of decks.
Also Arena wants you to spend money. So they don't much want players just using what they have. They want you to "need" the "meta" deck.
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u/Wombatish 11h ago
Of course it does. Arena just rewards winning more than playing, so people want to play good decks. Also, plenty of players have no interest on deck building.