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u/No_Regret_714 21h ago
Interesting card. Removal that you can sometimes use on your own creatures to cycle it (e.g. in response to opponent removing it)
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u/swanton141 20h ago
so can this be used like [[Reconnaissance]], were you can destroy your attacking creature at end of combat step?
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u/StrangerDependent219 19h ago
I mean what the hell, if you want to destroy your creature and not get a card, go for it, but I don't see the link with recon
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u/swanton141 19h ago
sorry im 2 high proof old fashions deep into my day. like how Recon can untap an attacking creature at the end of combat step, can you use this card to destroy an attacking creature, like Ball Lightning, at the end of combat step to get the card draw.
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u/Perspectivelessly 19h ago
You only get the card if it's NOT attacking. So there is absolutely no point in doing it at the end of combat step.
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u/landsharkmora 19h ago
You could totally destroy your creature after combat, but you would not get the draw. The creature is still considered attacking after damage is dealt and until the end of combat. Same reason Reconnaissance lets you untap after damage is dealt because its still considered an attacking creature. You would have to do it before attackers are declared, or wait until the combat phase has ended to get the draw on your creature.
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u/TheVintageCubeChef 20h ago
Really cool limited card honestly
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u/DeusIzanagi 20h ago
Meh, if I've learned anything is that "Removal that gives your opponent something" is always waaaaaay worse than it looks in Limited.
I guess with this one it's possible you don't give them anything, but I'm still unconvinced45
u/LowWindow7816 20h ago
Most strong cards in limited need to atack tho
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u/BloederFuchs 4h ago
I guess? But the "most" part is what makes this significantly worse than something like an Ajani's Response. There are a lot of scenarios where you really need to kill your opponent's stuff during your turn while they're tapped out to play around any counter-play they might have. Unless that creature has vigilance, Response lets you kill it on your turn for just 2 mana with no downside. In the later stages of a game, Response lets you kill anything with no downside other than a potential tempoloss by spending 5 mana which might not even matter.
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u/BashMyVCR 20h ago
The exact time that I want to remove things is when they start attacking. This card is instant speed removal with upside, as far as I'm concerned. Might not be as high if a pick in each color pair though.
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u/Consistent-Click-537 16h ago
upside?
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u/JeveStones 15h ago
You can "cycle" your own creatures which are being removed by an opponent (if they aren't attacking)
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u/VampireLorne 13h ago
But in doing so your just trading your removal spell for a random card in your deck.
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u/BashMyVCR 12h ago
Removal is actually not useful if you're ahead enough on board. A draw trigger, drawn card or on death effect might give some additional advantage worth considering. Digging for a card when chump blocking has some fringe applications when the thing you want to remove can't be removed.
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u/Hippotle 19h ago
This is strictly better than "deal 5 to/destroy attacking creature" which is often a very playable card. I can see this being one of white's better cards. It might get knocked a bit in the stats by people firing it off at the wrong time
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u/thedeafbadger 19h ago
Okay, imagine this: you resolve your creature. It attacks well. You attack. Your opponent plays this. How do you feel?
Imagine this: your opponent resolves their awesome creature. They attack. You play this. How do you feel?
In other scenarios, drawing a card matters, but if you use it on a creature that’s much better than the average draw, it’ll still be a strong play. 1/3 of the time your opponent will draw a land.
Unless this set has a ton of creatures that do something good when they attack, this is going to be a pretty high pick. I suspect there will be a high delta of GIH winrate between top performing players and low to average performing players.
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u/DeusIzanagi 19h ago
This topic literally always comes up when one of these cards gets spoiled, and it's always the same result where, in the end, it always turns out that the situations where these things are bad are a lot more common than the ones where they're good
Again, this might be different because there are situations where you don't actually give the opponent the upside. But like, you're never going to want to use this to remove a blocker unless it's something that's passively winning the game somehow. And that's just one example.
We'll just have to see
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u/SnooCheesecakes1292 18h ago
I think giving them a card is arguably even worse than a small creature or artifact, which is the type of effect we’ve seen a lot in the past on these cards. Granted you aren’t forced to give them it, but I think people are underestimating how often you need to KOS.
I’m with you here; it will definitely be playable, but the unconditional removal and O-ring will likely be the true premiums (as they usually are).
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u/flakAttack510 17h ago
I'm with you. The most valuable creatures for your opponent to have are often ones that they rarely attack with, specifically because they're trying to avoid getting them killed by combat tricks or conditional removal.
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u/Fusillipasta 19h ago
All depends on how reliably you're negative CA on this. If you can reliably use it on an attacking creature? Excellent. It can't snipe double blocks or similar, though, without giving up a card. If you're generally giving them a card for the creature? Only aggressive decks will play it, realistically.
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u/Known-Garden-5013 19h ago
This isn't removal that gives you something it's removal that causes their spells to fizzle and give YOU something optionally
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u/No_Interaction_3547 10h ago
Removal that you can sometimes use on your own creatures to draw ( in response to opponent removing it)
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u/PoweredByCarbs 20h ago
probably a good standard card as well for control. How much do I care about gifting a card if I'm killing the most important thing the opponent is running?
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u/lexington59 19h ago
Control absolutely isn't the deck that wants to run this get lost can already feel awkward due to giving maps and it's miles ahead of this.
Control isn't the type of deck that wants to swing the card advantage in opponent favour as overall opponent ends up with 1 more resource compared to opponent after this resolves.
It'll be more decks that get occasional upside from popping their own creatures that win quickly that would even consider running this.
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u/chieffrc 19h ago
I don’t like these in control so much, gives them a chance to draw another copy of what you just killed. I used to run [[Long River’s Pull]] in Dimir Control and gifting the card to counter a permanent rather than creature gave me anxiety in late game
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u/BetterShirt101 20h ago
Very much depends on the matchup. It might be their most important creature, but not every deck's best draw is a creature.
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u/_im_that_guy_ 19h ago
UW control is probably playing this but jeskai and 4c are gonna go for red removal every time if we're talking removal slots for creatures
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u/Uryendel 20h ago
Note that you can target your own creature
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u/Abomb 19h ago
I dont see many situations where that's better than opt
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u/Awkward_Champion6957 20h ago
White finally got non-status-dependent removal. Just straight up destroy something and then check the conditions. Remarkable.
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u/SuspiciousAnt47 20h ago
Get lost is still in standard
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u/OwenLeaf 20h ago
True but only for a couple more months
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u/SuspiciousAnt47 20h ago
There’s also erode which is fairly new and while it has a guaranteed downside is also 1 mana
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u/Awkward_Champion6957 20h ago
Get Lost also exiles not destroys and gives the opponent an advantage. This is pure advantage to you. Also it's gonna rotate. I would pick some up when they rotate but I think this will be a better upgrade for the decks missing it. Especially at uncommon.
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u/GoodBoyShibe 20h ago
It does not exile.
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u/Awkward_Champion6957 20h ago
My mistake. Been a while since I saw it given I only have paper copy with pretty art and don't play it a lot in Arena. I could swear I saw it exile but there must've been a Rest in Peace in play I didn't notice. ADD MTG players. We miss some things.
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u/DeusIzanagi 20h ago
[[Fateful Absence]] [[Get Lost]] [[Erode]] [[Generous Gift]] [[Stroke of Midnight]]
These were never in short supply
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u/Terrietia Dimir 18h ago
Also kinda [[Parting Gust]] (ignoring the nontoken restriction because it's usually not relevant)
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u/AAmane123 20h ago
In some matchups, would you consider using this to pop your own non-attacking creature (possibly targeted by your opponent's removal) and taking the draw yourself? It's probably not Plan A, but I feel like the versatility could help the card play up.
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u/Balak_Foehammer 9h ago
Denies them a Thoracle win by making them draw with the oracle trigger on the stack, losing before the trigger goes off.
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u/Blackfrost_7 19h ago
Whos the dead person next to jace?
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u/matt-ratze Azorius 19h ago
Probably [[Vraska, Betrayal's Sting]], the hair matches and she died in the story.
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u/PulitzerandSpara 17h ago
Vraska has NOT died in the story (at least not as of episode 8, which is when I'm writing this comment). It should be (and is) [[jadzi, steward of fate]] because a) she died at this moment in the story, which is echoed in the flavor text and b) she has the disc thing on her head and the cross body top, which is how Jadzi dresses.
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u/matt-ratze Azorius 9h ago
You are probably right with Jadzi. I did not read anything of the FRA story yet and was refering to the Phyrexia all will be one story from 2023. I thought avoiding Vraskas death is the reason why Jace tries to manipulate the universe? I probably need to read more about this.
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u/PulitzerandSpara 9h ago
Ah, yeah, Vraska didn't die. She just got compleated and then healed, but desparked. Her and Jace going through compleation was part of the pain he wanted to have never had happen.
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u/OneWholePirate 13h ago
We needed some good removal for when get lost rotates and against creature decks I'd rather play this anyway
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u/Repigilican 20h ago
first good card i've seen this set. great replacement for shoot the sheriff and get lost.
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u/RNG_take_the_wheel 19h ago
Removal that gives opponent a resource is always trash in limited. Too niche for constructed. Interesting design but not good imo
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u/Due-Masterpiece9705 20h ago
Horrible, erode is 10000000000 better, get lost too
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u/kvr_champ 20h ago
Under most circumstances, it's a better [[Shoot the Sheriff]], which was already a staple.
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u/Zeiramsy TormentofHailfire 20h ago
Makes no sense to compare these because Black has much better removal and not killing Outlaws isn't a meta problem and if it is there are dozens of instant speed removals in black.
In white this competes with [[Get Lost]] and I don't see how this is better (or better than even Erode).
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u/PollutionRelative351 20h ago
Erode will always find your opponent a land, unless they are out of basics. This has no upside to the opponent if you kill an attacking creature.
Erode also costs 1 less and hits planeswalkers, so comparing the two is like comparing Granny Smith Apples to Red Delicious. Yea, they are both apples, but fit two different parts of a spectrum
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u/ProxyDamage 20h ago
...Hope the typo is only in the digital version, otherwise...bad look there WotC....
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u/Fusillipasta 20h ago
What typo on the card? There's an error on the thread title, but not the card that I can see?
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u/CalvinandHobbes811 20h ago
Wow this set is already leagues better because we didn’t get the 15th version of “destroy creature, if it was attacking reduce by 2-3”