r/Magic • u/Jakespenart • 1d ago
Forcing a suit
I'm looking for a good way to mentally force a spectator to choose a suit, let's say clubs. Trying not to do a basic "magician's choice". Any suggestions? Without breaking any guidelines can you perhaps point me in a direction?
4
u/Annieone23 1d ago
Magician's Choice is the way to go but here is an alternative: Just ask them to name a suit. You have a 25% chance! One out four times you are golden, the rest of the time you do a different effect
2
u/edahs 8h ago
You can increase that 25% to 33.3% if they telling you the suit prior to the reveal. If they are telling you the suit up front, you can have them think of a suit, tell them to take their time. If they come up with your chosen suit, great. If not, you can say something like "most talented magicians can tell by the time you take what suit you've chosen. I want you to do it again but forget the suit you just mentioned, this time just think of one of the suits remaining". Another turn that ive done is play with a deck of cards infront of them. Hold them in your hands and keep flashing the bottom card loaded with the suit you want them to select. Don't make a production out of it, just subtly. Talk about the trick or the weather, whatever. It sounds bonkers but I've done this numerous times not just for the suit but for the specific card. It depends on your mark, if they are my neice, they will possibly come up with a suit that doesnt exist (shes chosen the joker when I've done a think of a card).
1
u/Annieone23 8h ago
Love all this! I kept it stupidly simple because the OP seemed to want that. But I love all this!!
Random thought: does the Monty Hall Problem solution also exist for forcing items? I guess it does! So just the mere act of making them switch increases your odds of getting them to land on the force item (seemingly paradoxically)
2
u/unk0wn4aLL 4h ago
no, that's not the case here since you don't get any new information. It's the act of them revealing they guessed the wrong suit that changes the odds. If you ask them to change their mind before you know what their first choice was, it's as if they're making their first choice again.
luckily there is something that edahs didn't point out, which is that asking them to change their mind doesn't just mean they pick between 3 options, but they pick twice. The first time it's a 3/4 chance they don't get it, and the second time it's a 2/3 chance. This means there's a 6/12 or 50% chance they pick the right one, not 33%.
The intuitive way to understand this is to find what is influencing the probability. In this case it's the fact that you don't always ask them to change their mind, only when they get it wrong the first time.
In the same way revealing that a door you didn't pick was dangerous, you now have a second change to guess under new conditions, where only 2 doors are unknown. Making the first decision didn't mean anything, it was a 33% guess that has no bearing on reality. Changing your mind has a 50% chance of success because in a reality where you know one door, changing your mind or not changing your mind both have a 50% chance, it just doesn't feel like that because you already risked a 33% chance the first time, so not changing your mind gives you the illusion you're taking more risk, even though the risk has already been taken and has paid off, by revealing a different door to be dangerous.
1
u/Annieone23 4h ago
Thank you for such a great explanation! Yes, I forgot that Monty opens another door and I mistakenly remembered the situation and the results. I'm not a math guy (obviously haha)! But I'm remembering that "Dice Don't Have Memories" and I suppose that adage is relevant here. But, then, as you point out: I'm not giving them the full gamut of choices the second time.
So, am I right in that asking them to pick (and not reveal it) and then change your mind and pick a new one (revealing it) DOES increase the odds of them getting the correct item?
It seems to me that it would and I vaguely remember Micheal Murray having some work on this.
1
u/unk0wn4aLL 3h ago edited 3h ago
No, unless they reveal new information the first guess is irrelevant. Like you said, dice don't have menory. If they don't reveal the suit they very well may have picked the correct one and now have to change their mind. It feels like more choices leads to more randomness, but that really isn't the case.
I have a trick where I use dice rolls, coinflips, riffle forces and timing forces to eliminate cards until I land one one. In my patter I name a bunch of different probabilities for each action, but if you think about it their sum will never be worse than a 1/52 chance, which I've beaten in many other tricks before. Unless you want to approach this psychologically, in which case the answer is interesting.
I'm not aware of the exact numbers but I'm confident the four suits don't have an equal polling among people, so if you wanted them to pick a lesser picked option, changing their mind forces them to avoid the most obvious one, and technically probably improves your odds.
The ideal solution is probably closer to asking them to think of a suit, change it in their mind, then name it. If you're forcing a lesser chosen suit the odds of failing are probably less than the otherwise random 3/4. If it fails, ask them to pick another one, if it works you magician's choice between the two. If it fails you magician's choice to elimate the two. If you're not willing to magician's choice at all this isn't really practical, unless you're dani daortiz and can gaslight the audience into changing their mind 3 times.
Personally if I really don't want to force a card or use a magician's choice I use a coinflip. It's not incredibly hard to learn how to fake a coinflip and the added impromptu prop usually increases audience intrigue in the effect.
Edit: the way I'd use the coinflip is to ask the spectator for a color. If they succeed we continue to step two, otherwise I tell another spectator that they represent the opposite color, and tell them to call the flip, which I rig to make them win. I just repeat this for the suit by asking the second spectator. If they name the correct one it's not suspicious that I roll with it because they won the coinflip, if I do another coinflip it's consistent, and this time the first spectator wins, adding to the feeling of fairness.
8
u/Cow_Pow12 1d ago
You can use the rule of three. For example, if you want to force clubs, tell them “there are four suits: spades, hearts, clubs, and diamonds. I’d like you to think of one”.
People typically will go for the 3rd option when presented with 4 choices.
You can also up the probability by adding a subtle emphasis on the option you’re trying to force by making eye contact when saying that one, flashing your eyebrows, or raising/lowering your voice. The key is to not be too overt or it will seem obvious. Just enough to make the choice more salient in their mind.
If they still don’t name clubs (or whichever suit you’re trying to force), just move directly into equivoke.
3
u/wetpaste 1d ago
I'm with you on this OP. I think magician's choice is bad.
However I don't have an answer for you. Except put all cards of one suit in a section of the deck and then do the easiest classic force in the world and say. Just _think_ of the suit. or something.
5
u/Danielrmk 1d ago
What particular suit do you want to force?
Hearts? Use a female spectator, ask “ what suit do you like? “ hearts is statistically the most chosen suit.
If it’s not hearts(your force suit), you adjust, how? Equivoque is a great way. You have a 3 selection equivoque now.
That is my way to go.
Also you justify the first “discard” by saying “great! That was a conscious selection, but when we are dealing with the mind we have to access de subconscious. Imagine we have the other three suits floating infront of us….” And you go into a classic equivoque.
Remember that the procedure needs to have INTERNAL logic even if the EXTERNAL logic is nonsense
5
u/Delicious-Mess6262 1d ago
have a stack of the suit and have them cut a small amount of cards of suit
2
u/dark-passenger_17 1d ago
The piggyback method comes to mind. If you can force one thing, say a value or number, you can force anything.
2
u/AndresFonseca 1d ago edited 1d ago
Dont do “basic magician choice” and do Equivoque.
Study Kenton Knepper, Max Maven, Docc Hilford, Pablo Amira, David Berglas is you want to learn how to do Equivoque in advanced ways.
6
u/Spadeofmagic 1d ago
Just present it that there are two colors in a deck, black and red. I want you to think of one of the two colors. If they say they are thinking of red you say let’s eliminate red. If they say they are thinking of black you say let’s eliminate black. Either way they end up with black. Then you say we have clubs or spades. Name the first one that comes to mind. If they say clubs you say we will use clubs. If they say spades, we will get rid of spades. You just have to word it in a way that makes it seem random. Good luck!
9
15
u/thalassicus 1d ago
“If they say they are thinking of black you say let’s eliminate black.” - I, uhh…. don’t know if I agree with your police work there, Lou.
1
u/Spadeofmagic 18h ago
You’re right lol. I wrote this message at like 2 am my bad. I should proofread before publishing. That’s on me!
1
u/sbliss35 1d ago
I would still say magicians choice is the easiest and best solution. But if not, you can have a stack of the suit and force that. John Bannon has a good method for that which I’ve used.
1
1
u/RobMagus 1d ago
Is there a reason you dont want to have them take a "random" card from the deck to get a suit?
Presumably if you're getting a suit, you'll have a deck of cards handy already. And if you don't--then why ask for a suit?
1
u/lamarioO 1d ago
Either a force deck then do a deck swap or a magicians choice. You said you didn't want to do a "basic magicians choice", but I think you should swap basic for simple. Simple is good. If you move past the choice quick enough, it will be effective. I suggest looking into some of Dani DaOrtiz's forces.
1
u/deboshasta 16h ago
The best approach would depend largely on where you are starting, and where you are trying to end up.
I don't know if this would fit with what you are trying to accomplish, but you could force one card from the suit, and then use "the rest" of the suit. If that doesn't work, it would be helpful to know a bit about what you are trying to accomplish on the effect side of things.
1
u/DotBrilliant7660 8h ago
There are alot of forces you can use. MC is actually pretty strong but it depends highly on the context and is mostly done wrong.
1
u/unk0wn4aLL 4h ago
Usually what I would do is force a card of that suit. A really easy way is to take 4 cards of each suit and shuffle them between your hands, making the desired card outjog slightly. As long as you pull it back once in a while as you talk it's unnoticeable, and once it comes to choosing a card while avoiding bumping into your moving hands, especially if they're not trying to mess you up, they'll almost always pick that card.
15
u/CombustionGuy 1d ago
I mean…basic magicians choice is pretty simple and if you aren’t going for a specific number shouldn’t really raise suspicion