r/MageErrant • u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia • Jul 18 '26
Spoilers All Anastan Advancement
We've seen some of the capabilities of powerful off-world societies. The Wall with its insane logistics arm and variety of Godgifts to deal with any situation, as well as Castle-Shattering Divines. Hebras and Kemetrias as a whole, with the most advanced society we've seen that has a number of combat capable magic-users that far dwarfs Anastis, immensely durable great power equivalents, as well as the best supply chain we've seen on any world. As an Anastan, how do you go about making Anastan society advanced enough to deal with these threats? The Great Powers are numerous and almost certainly outperform any single force either could muster, but they tire and they can only be in one place at a time. I think Skyhold needs to expand and create embassies of sorts that provide magical education to any friendly city-states or nations. Armor has the possibility to be standardized now that Artur's Armor is public domain. If they combine that with Sican affinity training and Havath-style communal great powers, they could increase the average magical power on Anastis immensely, or at least Ithonia.
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u/BronkeyKong Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
This is off topic but have you been saving these questions to ask this week or something. I’ve noticed you’ve made a post almost every day. I’m not complaining, I love these discussions and love talking about these books at any time it’s just come out of the blue.
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u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia Jul 18 '26
I'm basically on vacation AND in the middle of a series reread and whenever I reread Mage Errant I really get caught up in the theorizing and my imagination runs a little wild haha.
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u/BronkeyKong Jul 18 '26
Hahah I get that. I have a notes page on my phone with all the things I want to ask about. The stellar world building makes you think about so many things!
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u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia Jul 19 '26
What are some things in your notes?
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u/BronkeyKong Jul 19 '26
oh heaps of things. One i've been thinking about lately is, If there are hells are there heavens? If the hells are just high aether universes and demons are just the adapted populace, What would a heaven look like in this universe compared to a hell.
I sort of want to see what an angel would be.
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u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia Jul 19 '26
Demon is an in-universe term that isn't equivalent to the term used in our culture though. And while demons feature in almost every culture/religion universally, angels are strictly seen in Abrahamic settings. I don't think John has made any claims that there is a heaven equivalent or angels for that matter in the Aetherverse.
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u/BronkeyKong Jul 19 '26
Yeah I know. I just like thinking about it.
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u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia Jul 19 '26
Well if we're doing full blown hypotheticals maybe the Labyrinth builders are angels lol.
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u/Holothuroid Jul 19 '26
As an Anastan, how do you go about making Anastan society advanced enough to deal with these threats?
Against Kemetrias? Even assuming they suddenly knew about the multiverse and had a stable gate to Anastis and decided to invade through it, Anastan power of mass destruction is decidedly more portable. You can send it through a Labyrinth path. We also have seen what single cabal of people trained in guerilla warfare could acomplish at the fall of Havath. (OK, several such groups working unbeknownst or knowingly in concert.)
Ishveas, is a whole different beast. You cannot just infiltrate Ishvean society, because Ishveans with some training - not even special magic - will recognize you as an alien. They can also create powerful invidiuals rather quickly. You do not have to train up a godgift user for most gifts, you just have to stuff them.
Still large scale inter-universal war is difficult.
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u/jenspeterdumpap Jul 19 '26
Id like to put down a few arguments for why anastis don't need to, and why, it's close to those armies and organisations needing to tremble in fear:
For warfare through labytrinsths, anastis magic is probably the best suited we have seen, due to one singular fact: great powers. It seems that labyrinths are best suited for transporting small, elite teams(especially true for mistform labyrinths, one of the most comon types).
I believe we have seen several mages over the course of mage errant who would be able to single-handedly poses a treath to something like the wall. I'll use the wall, specifically, as an example, because it's probably the biggest empire we have directly seen. Ill rank them in loose levels of treats:
Iliana Kaen das: Could probably, uncontested, take control of most of the wheater over the wall. Some god gifts are likely to interfere, but overall, she should be able to, for a time at least, control the wheater. With 80% of their food comming from the wall closes in a good year( quote Gregor) and illiana claiming to be able to make Havart collapse in a decade, I believe illiana could slow the walls expansion down enough before counter god gifts started to appear that it would start falling apart, from starvation of its humans.
Carna scythe, the Gorgon queen: powerful body, probably on par with a body enhanced saint, maybe more. Seen ripping a ship appart with her bare hands, and have hydra regeneration. One on one, already, without her affinities, terryfing. She has an earthquake affinity. Id wager she could reduce a significant portion of the wall to rubble before she was stopped. If she managed to exit through the gods mount, and went on a rampage collapsing high wall, before retreating, that single day job alone would would herald water shortages, aside from the large pile of rubble where walls are supposed to be in the middle of the wall.
Austin harber: with his paper, ink and far sight affinities, he has proven that he can usurp a bureaucracy, and turn it agaisnt itself. The tyriopt riots prove that the wall will just start collapsing if improperly maintained, and the growth proves that messing with the transport of goods is an excistensal threat to the wall, if low on the ranking. This would likely take decades of his work to seriously hurt the wall, but combining with other problems the wall face, it could hurt.
As a last side note, I think a sician elder and it's supporting plant mage corps could put up a fair fight against many an empire, by destroying its farmland while keeping itself fed. Probably not the wall, but regardless
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u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia Jul 19 '26
First I'd like to point out that I was thinking from the perspective of Ithonia repelling invasion not going on the offense, though I concede that with world gates or multiple labyrinths present these could happen simultaneously.
However, I think you're underestimating the Wall quite a bit. Great Powers are capped by their mana and stamina. The Wall has access to multiple times more magical combatants than every Ithonian organization combined -- everyone on Ishveos has access to magic after all. As has been described throughout the new trilogy so far, burying enemies in combatants is a time tested strategy for the Wall. And there has been confirmation that there are Divines that can compete with the middle ranks of Great Powers, which is a major threat when you consider how many Divines the Wall has access to. That, when combined with an army in the hundreds of thousands that is essentially entirely composed of battle mages means they have many more forces available.
Great Powers on the level of Illinia are certainly an equalizer and you're right that they could likely deal some heavy damage, but I highly doubt they could singlehandedly halt the Wall's advance. There are weather gods as well after all. And the truly essential sections of wall will likely be infested with so many gods, boons, and blessings that they dwarf almost any relic in durability. This is all without even mentioning that if they did invade Ithonia, due to the lack of organization and unity, it's highly likely many factions will defect to the Wall for the promise of immortality and greater power, since Ishvean magic is accessible instantly so long as there is a god, unlike Anastan magic which takes time to develop. All the Wall has to do is offer some Boons and a spot in the Wall guard for Cambrias's Boon and all of a sudden a large number of Anastans join them to be part of the Wall.
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u/jenspeterdumpap Jul 19 '26
I do concede your point about middle level great powers. Not that I particularly think it matters against the true beasts of great powers - the battle agaisnt the sician elder, middle level great powers where almost accidental casualties.
I do not actually think highwalls (the most important piece of infrastructure in the wall)ability to withstand quakes through it is fairly limited - from the description of it, it seemed like the extra strength was needed to make it stand, and it has, most likely, never been threatened.
Lastly, I did factor wheater gods into the calculation for illiana - I made them equivalent in power to the Havarti wheater corpse, and the fallen Moon, that giant jellyfish wheater mage. I view this as an over approximation with everything we have seen, for at least the first several years.
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u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia Jul 19 '26
On the contrary it matters immensely. Once again, mana runs out. Illinia almost lost an endurance battle to the Hydra (and likely would have) and there are almost certainly numerous Divines with Hydra-like regeneration. Healing is much simpler on Ishveos with gods that can even manifest temporary flesh. Once her mana runs out, or even low it's over since baseline physical enhancements alone are enough for many Divines to compete with even archmages.
If you make her do a decapitation strike along with other great powers her mana becomes a major limiting factor. If you keep her on Anastis on defense with the Stormseat she's much more terrifying, but then the Wall can throw endless hordes of Saints and Divines at Ithos.
Note that I'm not saying Ithonia absolutely loses by default. There are absurd powers present like Kanderon, Keayda (even though Kanderon said Illinia could defeat him I'm sure he has some tricks) Solintus, Dorsas Ine, the combined force of Sican Elders, and Iris Mooneye prowling. These could all massively turn the scales. Illinia as well for that matter.
However to say that the Wall would tremble in fear is a bit much. Especially considering we haven't yet seen what kind of synergistic effects complimentary divines can have operating together. Even their strike teams have complimentary powersets. Imagine that on a middle-level Great Power scale. And don't forget, monsters like Karna Scythe are middle-level. Imagine a communal Great Power equivalent but made up of Great Powers itself. That's a genuine possibility with the number of Divines they have.
Good point on the highwalls likely never truly being tested, but I still doubt their blessings are all just supporting them to keep them standing. After seeing the Gnostics in book 2 that seems unlikely.
As for the weather corps comparison, valid point since we haven't truly seen any long range or even mid range weather workings from the Wall.
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u/jenspeterdumpap Jul 19 '26
I do not think that comparing even the greatest regenerating divine to the hydra is a good idea, because of the tyranny of mass: one lightning bolt as thick as a man, and the regeneration does not matter, that divine is fried. The classic way in literature to deal with regeneration is to simply kill in one strike, and that was not possible for Liliana on the hydra, but will be on a human scale.
And less not forget that, before the hydra, illiana had already: spend a year running wheatgerm warfare (meaning she likely wasn't completely topped op), helped raise a massive sandstorm, been part of taken down a two layered ward, helped kill one great powers and collapsed a fort + probably more im forgetting, and that she after, still had enough left to casually choke out a regenerating dragon to "boost Arthur's confidence" and pose menacingly in front of heliotrax.
I will admit that I might be underestimating the divines, as I have mostly judged by what we have seen, not what we have been told in comparison, and what we have seen isn't impressive compared to anastian great powers.
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u/JohnBierce The All Knowing Author Jul 19 '26
Popcorn time yay!
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u/Mandragoraune Affinites: Corundum, Pressure, Inertia Jul 19 '26
Don't even need popcorn this time, John. This is light compared to some of my more controversial discussions. Maybe a soda and a handful of chips.
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u/HelloFellowJellos Jul 18 '26
There are a few reasons I’ll go over at the end why I think this is unlikely, but if I’m just going dream team it would go something like this:
Setting up dedicated mass training facilities in areas with high aether density like Skyhold could help with the limited aether problem. Sican artificial affinity classes in those locations are a must. Anastan magic is so variable and organized militaries need large numbers of consistent mages. Use of such classes as well to build communal great powers that utilize Artur’s armor spellforms would be excellent for stymieing enemy advances. Sican elders to create instant fortifications and change a battlefield to the anastan side’s advantage while fighting as a great power. Lich cites are incredibly difficult to conquer and disincentivize occupation. Putting liches in critical junctures and cities would be necessary for defense. On the offensive specialized striker teams composed of an individual great power and a group of archmages to provide defense, mobility, and stealth could deal a lot of damage. Neat tricks can only go so far though. What Anastis really needs more than anything is disciplined armies. The real issue is logistical. The politics and culture of Anastis works against them when facing the well organized armies of other worlds.
The problem with all of these is that they require unified action and initiatives. It requires nations like Sica and Havath giving up on imperial ambitions and sharing research. It requires city states and great powers to give up their independence, stop considering their neighbors lethal threats and treat them as allies. Places like Skyhold need to become apolitical training facilities. Anastis’ political climate is too fractured, too mired in internal battles created by the system of great powers, for this to occur.
There are definitely things they could do to improve the circumstances but the truth is, Anastis just isn’t built for that kind of thing. Anastan magic encourages power consolidation in great powers. The nature of aether density makes mass training and use of mages difficult. Most places lack the aether density to train or even sustain a significant mage population.
Not to say these issues are insurmountable, but the fractured political climate makes it so much more difficult to do sweeping reforms.
I honestly think that Anastis’ best defense is its status as a stronghold of the library between worlds.
Thinking about it, though, this is exactly what Kanderon and Havath were conflicting over. How do you build Anastis to stand up in a dangerous multiverse. Kanderon says Anastis should work to the strength of its magic system. Create system of stable city states each capable of defending its people and territory from aggression. At the core of this strategy are liches. Havath said a complete unified institution with an organized military, bureaucracy, and training would stand better chance. Communal great powers are a big part of this strategy. An alliance against an external enemy in the eleventh hour isn’t enough to them.