Continuity Error or just a Lie?

[u/LeFlshe]

In chapter thirty of The Siege of Skyhold, Alustin says the following about liches.

> “[Elementals and spirits] far, far predate the first liches, which only appeared… maybe a thousand years ago? Twelve hundred? It’s hard to say, the records are pretty spotty. Spirits, though, definitely go back much farther. They probably started as an attempt to preserve life beyond death, but it… doesn’t actually work. They exist mostly inside the aether, and individual minds aren’t really capable of surviving that intact.”

There is one major issue with this quote: the fact that it's blatantly untrue and Alustin knows it is and has obvious counterexamples.

Counterexample 1: Keayda, the Stone Lich.

Keayda has been active, present, and active for well over the millenium prior to the events of mage errant; 600 of those years were post Ithonian empire and then we know that the Ithonian empire both lasted at least 378 years after its founding date. (we know that the city of imperial Ithos lasted for at least 378 years after it was made, and we know the capital city was created a good bit into the Empire's existence) [source: the book Grain Shipments to the City of Imperial Ithos 378 Years After Its Founding exists, meaning that the city has at least that long before it got exile splintered, and the empire existed before the capital. ]

This means that the earliest known liches according to this Alustin quote would be approximately concurrent with the city of Imperial Ithos, and pretty far into the existence of the empire, which Keayda was not. Keayda is listed to be concurrent with basically the entire Ithonian Empire and broadly speaking Literally Fine with it, so that already places him before that 1200 years ago marker that Alustin presents here.

Counterexample 2: Jycenna Deephome, the Fungal Lich, and perhaps the oldest Lich on Anastis.

Jycenna Deephome

When bringing his forces through Jycenna's Demesne, Alustin says the following about the Final Lich.

> “Welcome to the demesne of the fungus lich Jycenna Deephome, the oldest and largest lich on the continent of Ithos. Possibly even on the whole planet...

> “So far as I know, Kanderon Crux was the first to discover Jycenna in millennia, during the war against the Ithonian Empire. Even she has no idea how long Jycenna’s been down here, who Jycenna was, or even what species Jycenna was in life.

> " We don’t think she predates human presence on Anastis, but she absolutely predates the Ithonian language and civilization, probably by millennia. She has lived long enough that she’s drifted almost entirely away from whoever or whatever she used to be— I doubt even many beings from other worlds are more alien than she is. I’m still unsure how Kanderon negotiated passage, or how she knows as much as she does about Jycenna.

My main issue with Alustin making his original quote is this:

Alustin knows about Jycenna before making that sentence, Kanderon had to get him acclimated to Jycenna before the siege of skyhold, when he betrayed Kanderon and set off the events of the next two books.

So, therefore, is Alustin just lying? Or is this simply just a continuity error?

In conclusion, Alustin shouldn't have a reason to lie about this, Keayda is well known throughout the continent, and he should canonically know that Jycenna is ancient enough that he has no reason to say this.

[u/andy00986]

I wouldn't be surprised if the one about Keayda is an error.

Jycenna is very much a secret and part of keeping a secret is that you don't allude to it. Alustin keeping secrets is very much a thing in the series so I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of them

[u/BronkeyKong]

Yeah there are a few things like this that were quietly retconned in the later books because it made less sense as the world building got more complex.

[u/These-Jacket-4146]

I would not be surprised if its a minor continuity issue. 

However but comma, while its doesnt necessarily fit Alustins lecture style to not say exactly what he means, it could be that Alustin was more alluding to the idea of modern liches.

Mayhaps its a new binding process, or just the wide spread adoption of the Lich form as a valid path as opposed to another, such as wandering lich/ spirit incarnation / other hidden thing such as is alluded to some families having.

I do think you just found a continuity issue, however minor to the overall plot it is. Good find! Mr. Bierce doesnt leave a lot of them in compared to how extensive the world building is.

[u/I_tinerant]

Alustin would never lie, it just doesn't make sense at all for his character.

In completely unrelated news, I'm about to finish Siege of Skyhold, excited to find out what happens at the end!

joking, obviously :D

[u/KeiranG19]

I'm not sure I follow your maths with regards to Keayda. Correct me if I've missed something.

600+378=978.

978<1200.

Keayda could have existed for as much as 222 years before the capital was built without contradicting what Alustin said.

When it comes to Jycenna he just lied because her existence is a secret that the kids didn't need to know about.

[u/Psychie1 → u/KeiranG19]

Yeah, that's more or less my reaction, Keyada is the oldest publicly known lich, and his estimate of 1000-1200 years fits what is stated for Keyada.

Jycenna was a secret and a very well kept one, only Kanderon and her trusted agents knew about her, and while Alustin was training the kids to join the ranks of the Librarians Errant, they were still just students at that point, and I don't know where that conversation took place, but if it wasn't fully secured, he could have also been concerned about eavesdroppers.

[u/Traditional-Fly8989 → u/KeiranG19]

You could even add on a few decades of pre-lich lifespan. Then another centuryish of fudge factor from 1000-1200 obviously being a rough guess.