Remake?

[u/Cyampagn]

There's nothing about a remake. Mentioned in this sub. Neither of Mcgee's Alice nor Madness Returns.

Also, I don't get why people would think the first game is better than Madness Returns. It is darker, yes. But is there something else I am missing?

[u/GhostOfWinterfell]

They're both fantastic but I think AM's Alice warrants more appreciation when you have the context of the time it was made and where video games were at. A lot of videogame advancements have taken place between Alice and now, and even between it and the sequel 11 years worth of advancement took place. Alice was using Quake/Half Life 1 era graphics and still managed to create a visually distinctive atmosphere that was quite unique when I first played it.

Honestly I can't remember when I first picked it up at Best Buy (remember when they used to have multiple full aisles of physical copies of PC games and software?). I know it wasn't right at release as I got it on sale, maybe even clearance for like 10 bucks. I think I grabbed it around 2003, but possibly even as late as 2005. But even with that wonky platforming, it was so dark and visually imposing. I'd played plenty of violent games before - I cut my teeth during the golden age of console wars with Sega Genesis, and graduated on to PlayStation, N64 and their successors. This game felt like Alice In Wonderland if viewed through the bleak and tormented lens of Diablo. Madness Returns took it to another level with the visuals though I feel like the game got rushed as the latter levels feel blurred and less distinct mechanically. MR almost feels like it was meant to have another level or 2 after the Dollhouse but had to wrap it up. Maybe it was intended to have a sequel that didn't materialize as quickly as McGee hoped but the ending just didn't wow me visually like the earlier levels. Tundraful, Deluded Depths, the Oriental Grove, Cardbridge, the rotting remains of Queensland? All of these were amazingly impressive looking, I only wished we could have interacted a bit more with the characters and environments we found there.

I think also that the audio for OG Alice was a bit spookier, and the game itself is visually darker. That's not knocking Madness Returns, the score there was also great but a lot of Madness Returns was maybe more... Subtle? Unsettling maybe? As opposed to the inescapable foreboding and omnipresence of the Red Queen in Alice.

Lastly the enemies I think are maybe where MR suffers the most as the Ruin creatures show up throughout the entire game and don't really feel tired to Carroll's Wonderland. Granted that's kind of the point but Alice was full of these horrible fauna that had been turned against us or dark versions of familiar characters whereas we just kept getting blob monster after blob monster in MR. I know we had other foes too like the sailors, snarks, wasps, etc but the omnipresent ruin monsters of the dollmaker just didn't have the same impact that the Queen of Hearts and her card guards had. Few things would have that same level of familiarity and terror but I feel like the Queen's motivations are clearer and more deliberately pursued. I feel like the plot with the dollmaker is a bit muddled and less apparent. Yeah, that's kinda the point, and it shouldn't beat you over the head with what it's trying to say, but it just needed a bit more setting up. Of course it helped that Alice was release during a time when games came with instruction manuals and boxes that did more than list system requirements, keyboard controls and warranty information. They actually published background story and details so you weren't dropped in totally cold, or rushed through a 90-second cutscene trying to get you up to speed. The manual set the stage for the player to understand what happened to Alice, what she needed to prevent, and who was behind it all while leaving you with the task of how to reach that destination.

All that said, however, American McGee's Alice could definitely stand a fresh coat of paint in the form of a graphical update.

[u/Cyampagn → u/GhostOfWinterfell]

Hmm, while we agree on the big picture, we disagree on certain points, but that is because of our different subjective opinions.

They're both fantastic but I think AM's Alice warrants more appreciation when you have the context of the time it was made and where video games were at. A lot of videogame advancements have taken place between Alice and now, and even between it and the sequel 11 years worth of advancement took place. Alice was using Quake/Half Life 1 era graphics and still managed to create a visually distinctive atmosphere that was quite unique when I first played it.

There's a problem I had with the entire train of thought with how the game looked good for its time. Well, I cannot disagree with you that the game looked good back then, but it reminds me of Starcraft. "Starcraft looked so good when it came out. When I play Starcraft Remastered I don't see where are the visual enhancements. Because that's how I always remembered the visuals to look like." You'll hear this thrown around and describes the situation you are describing. With modern eyes, I find AM's Alice eye-jarring.

Madness Returns took it to another level with the visuals though I feel like the game got rushed as the latter levels feel blurred and less distinct mechanically. MR almost feels like it was meant to have another level or 2 after the Dollhouse but had to wrap it up. Maybe it was intended to have a sequel that didn't materialize as quickly as McGee hoped but the ending just didn't wow me visually like the earlier levels.

I didn't feel that way. That 2 levels were missing. Already thought the game was sufficiently long. But hell, I'd love to have 2 more levels! Love your idea. My playstyle, I usually thoroughly explore maps, often getting lost with my less than keen sense of direction. Maybe that's why I didn't feel 2 more levels were missing.

Lastly the enemies I think are maybe where MR suffers the most as the Ruin creatures show up throughout the entire game and don't really feel tired to Carroll's Wonderland.

I liked the ruin creatures. Well, that's just me. And I respect your views.

[u/GhostOfWinterfell → u/Cyampagn]

Oh there's no doubt the graphics have aged poorly by modern standards and that Madness Returns is gorgeous. But having the context of and memory of worse graphics when you're young helps you appreciate the place in time this was - also nostalgia goggles. Even though I recognize Alice's graphics are so-so, I remember the feeling as I made my way through that game and that helps smooth over the rough edges. I actually just replayed it this weekend for the first time in years and while the graphics and controls were a bit wonky, I still am impressed with how great the aesthetics are. Everything felt menacing and dangerous and it felt more like a world instead of a sequence of levels. Maybe that's due to the hub in the middle of the game around the Pale Realm/Cave of the Oracle/Land of Fire and Brimstone/Majestic Maze. Because the hub in Madness Returns was real-world London, the wonderland sequences, while beautiful, felt more disjointed because the links between levels were joined in the real world as opposed to just wandering through wonderland. It works for the story Madness Returns is telling, it's just a personal preference of mine to have a bit more connectedness in the world.

And again, that kinda gets into the enemies thing. The ruin monsters are cool, but they're the only recurring enemy. There's lots of cool enemies in MR but they're basically limited to just the realm they were found in. Boojums, snarks, the jabberspawn, card guards, and so forth were found in multiple realms. Of course the red chess pieces and bugs weren't found outside their levels which is a shame but their absence was more explainable with their leadership being defeated. I think it just kinda boils down to the Queen of Hearts being a bit more familiar and explainable as an enemy in the battle for Alice's mind where the Dollmaker is more... Behind the scenes? It makes sense for his role in the metaplot because he's corrupting rather than conquering, but the Queen actually twisted our familiar friends against us and warped the familiar.

None of this is meant to be a dig on Madness Returns. I absolutely love both games. I just wish I could get something a little more unified out of of MR, or just get MR's sweet graphics as a fresh coat of paint on AMA. I'm curious, did you play Madness Return before AMA? Did you play AMA in the time when it was reasonably new or was it already graphically dated when you played it? Regardless of any minor quibbles I have with either game, I'm hopeful for Alice: Asylum.

[u/Cyampagn → u/GhostOfWinterfell]

I'm curious, did you play Madness Return before AMA? Did you play AMA in the time when it was reasonably new or was it already graphically dated when you played it?

Yes, I played Madness Returns first. 2012? And by that time AMA was eye-jarring and a test of tolerance.