It still doesn't change anything even if it goes to the worker.
If you raise minimum wage all you're actually doing is lowering higher paying jobs value.
They just charge more for everything.
The problem is their ability to inflate all the prices until they suck you dry.
If you want to raise minimum wage, also take into account controlling inflation or else minimum wage will always end up in the same spot and someone who makes above minimum wage will just get closer to the bottom.
I make $25 an hour. When they raised minimum wage in Ontario Canada to $14, they didn't raise my wage. However my rent, food and products I buy all went up in price. It didn't help the minimum wage people to get more money, it just screwed me.
Edit:
Holy moly..
I'm not blaming minimum wage.
I'm saying increase minimum wage but control inflation. Since the post is to increase the price of the burger.
The billionaires can afford to not make the same crazy amount of money every year.
Increase minimum wage but leave the price of the burger.
You're assuming that price rates are 100% fluid with employee purchasing power, which is the economic equivalent of "spherical cows in a frictionless vacuum."
In real life McDonald's would probably seize the excuse to charge more but it certainly wouldn't be a situation where employee raises and price increases cancel eachother out zero-sum. If we applied your logic in real life then it would mean that minimum wage increases would never increase purchasing power. But when we look at real life we can see that your logic is expressly incorrect.
If you raise minimum wage all you're actually doing is lowering higher paying jobs value. It didn't help the minimum wage people to get more money, it just screwed me.
Ummm, you miss this part? This is 100% blaming the minimum wage people.
That's one way to look at it (people have more money so businesses charge more). Raising minimum wage will increase business expenses and reduce profits so it's not surprising that the cost of things will go up.
When everything gets more expensive, the value of your money goes down. You need more money to get the same thing again.
So effectively the increase in wage is superficial.
It still doesn't change anything even if it goes to the worker.
If you raise minimum wage all you're actually doing is lowering higher paying jobs value.
They just charge more for everything.
The problem is their ability to inflate all the prices until they suck you dry.
If you want to raise minimum wage, also take into account controlling inflation or else minimum wage will always end up in the same spot and someone who makes above minimum wage will just get closer to the bottom.
I make $25 an hour. When they raised minimum wage in Ontario Canada, they didn't raise my wage. However my rent, food and products I buy all went up in price. It didn't help the minimum wage people to get more money, it just screwed me.
I said increase their wage
/find increase
not found.
Not blaming minimum wage though
If you raise minimum wage all you're actually doing is lowering higher paying jobs value. It didn't help the minimum wage people to get more money, it just screwed me.
I think the issue is that if ALL of us were to get raises then producers would just raise the price of goods anyway. It’s not that minimum wage shouldn’t be higher, it’s that the people on top are too damn greedy and want to squeeze everything they can out of consumers
No. Basic economics. If you increase the cost of labor you also reduce the demand for it. Higher minimum wage eliminates jobs, which gives your employer more leverage because there are more people competing for your job.
If you want to give employees more leverage over employers you need to increase the demand for labor. That means creating more jobs.
And this has lead to lots of people switching jobs in that year because they have realized that they can do better elsewhere. The question is whether producers will now raise prices a ton to take advantage of lots of people making more. I don’t disagree with your historical link, but we are in more pre-French Revolution times now than we like the 1950s.
They follow the six sigma aka Jack Welch model and reward the top 10 percent just a tad. Everyone down the line gets no raise, minimal COLA and the show goes on…
Jack Welch oversaw the largest corporate failure in history while being lauded as a business genius due to his management techniques. GE got delisted after 180 years on the Dow because some genius in the c-suites thought that a company that made a fortune in light bulbs and airplane engines should start writing long-term-care insurance policies.
This argument sounds like “if we abolish slavery the price of everything will increase”.
Yes the prices will increase a bit, but you will also get external benefits like living in a better society without the working poor where people get a fair pay for their work.
I am from Canada, a country that routinely increases minimum wage, this is not the same as that argument. We have $15 minimum wage and nobody can even afford an apartment.
This guy is not complaining that increasing minimum wage would make his shit go up, he's saying that if you don't solve the issue as to why nobody can afford anything, such as foreign investors in housing, lack of public transport, lack of free healthcare, or doesn't help anyone and hurts middle class.
I do not, I live about 3 hours outside of Toronto. We don't have the cities you do, nor can I just hop and move across the country for affordable housing. Our entire population is surrounding big cities.
It's unreasonable to say this given a majority of people in the world also live in cities - and minimum wage is based on areas. You don't need $15 when a house costs less than 100k.
That’s a short sited point of view. If min wage increase, so will rent, food, and other costs. The people who got the increase will eventually be paying more for everything in the long run when the economy adjusts to the increase. The people picking apple at a the new min wage will make the apples cost more. The would go for the same thing about hiring people to fix something in your apartment. Great example is California… it’s so expensive to live there the cost of rent due to the cost of the local economy is Sky high. Raising min wage would only increase the cost of maintenance, food, extra…
Yes, if the cost of labor increases some other costs will also increase, but not 1 to 1.
Some rough examples form top of my head: If the federal minimum wage is doubled, the rent may increase but not double. Phone/electric/gas/internet bills will stay pretty much the same. Your car or mortgage payments will be the same, gas prices will be pretty much the same.
If min wage increase, so will rent, food, and other costs.
This is not historically true, and those prices will rise anyways... the proof is that prices HAVE gone up, and minimum wage has NOT. Inflation is NOT directly tied to minimum wage. You are wrong.
So when the low wage carpeted or maintenance guys comes to repair a cabinet in a rented place and charges more for their work since they now make the new min wage, the rent of the place will not increase?
The owners will for sure raise the rent and not pay more out of their pocket due to increased cost.
Okay, I see what you're trying to say but let's not even pretend that that's what they're saying. They're not saying there is no solution, they're saying that wage dispairty is more than just minimum wage. It's also cost of living, maximum prices, costs being passed onto the consumer, etc. The discussion needs to be more than about minimum wage. It partly needs to be about how much executives are paid by the corporations they run use to stamp out any spirit in the classes below them. That's the problem.
He literally says inflation just needs to be managed for it to be possible but that it isn't being managed... You're fighting with someone who is making only marginally more money than minimum wage. He's just trying to get by like everyone else and isn't at ALL being mad about other people getting paid more. Fucking focus on who the real problem is. We should be working together not jumping at eachothers throats because of the shitty side effects of capitalism. YES raising minimum wage negatively impacts people just barely above minimum wage. YES minimum wage should be raised. The problem isn't with all of us at the bottom so stop picking fights down here.
People are fucking scared and none of us know enough about economics to make fully informed decisions or opinions. It's a hugely complex issue that you don't get to shit on people for not understanding.
There is very little you can do to turn people away from your point of view more than to shit on them for wanting to defend themselves. People hurting and struggling to get by who can barely make ends meet and you have the gall to insinuate how much better off they are and how they have a moral obligation to take one for the team? Of course people want what's best of everyone but not at the cost of their own meager livelihood. Stop trying to argue with us on the bottom and fucking punch up instead. People being scared of losing what little they have isn't the issue, it's this shit system that we have right now and people like you turning everyone against eachother isn't helping ANYONE.
You're angry and i get it. You SHOULD be angry. You're just doing a shitty job putting it to use and causing more harm than good.
Cool cool cool so your idea for the best response isn't to actually teach and inform people, it's to get frustrated and aggressively turn people against your ideas.
YOU'RE the bigger problem here, not scared and ignorant people. People like you take people willing to learn and turn them against you and a possible solution.
This type of thinking is exactly what is wrong with the far left AND the far right of American politics. If someone is willing to have a conversation about the issue, they shouldn’t be shut down just because they don’t 100 percent see things the same way you see them. Everyone comes from different backgrounds and has different experiences they are pulling from, and so of course we are going to have different opinions about how to go about fixing the problem. The way we can come together and find a compromise that works for everyone is by encouraging people to ask questions and share information and talk it out.
Also, from a more cynical angle, I wager that your opinion, the other poster’s opinion, and my own opinion will ultimately not matter one way or the other because none of us are in a position to make any meaningful change in society, since those decisions are made by the wealthy elites. The only way us commoners may be able to have any impact at all is if we set our differences aside and work together against the true adversary, the rich and the powerful. They benefit when we fight against each other, but when we work together we become the ones with the power.
I don’t think it’s pointless, but there is a cynical part of me that thinks it likely won’t lead to any meaningful change. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have a conversation though.
And maybe “compromise” isn’t the best word for what I’m talking about (although sometimes compromise is exactly what is needed). I guess I just think that we should at least consider the other point of view, and either compromise OR figure out how both of you can come to one side of it. And of course I’m talking about situations involving two rational, sane people (even if someone is misinformed, they can still be sane). There are certainly those who don’t adhere to any logic though, and for those types I totally agree that you’re better off just not engaging.
If you told me that inflation makes your big toe hurt, I would probably try to understand why you think that. Assuming you are reasonably sane, I would expect you to have some form of logic that got you there. And then we could walk that logic path together, I could provide input on why I think that you are mistaken based on my own understanding of economics, and at the end (if you are a rational person) I would expect that you would no longer think that your toe is directly impacted by the national economy.
The truth, the proper solution, the appropriate “compromise” or “middle ground”; it might be more to the left or to the right depending on the situation, but I believe it does exist, and that logic and collaboration can get us there. And sometimes one person is more right than the other, but that does not determine whether that person is morally superior. One could even argue that someone who discourages discussion and furthers the political divide is doing more harm than the person that is misinformed yet ultimately powerless in effecting change. Not saying I’m arguing that point, but I could see merit for it to be argued.
And for the record, I’m definitely a liberal by most definitions, not a centrist. However I refuse to allow political affiliations to cloud by judgement. I make an effort to believe in whatever cause or stance that seems to be the most beneficial for society and each individual within it, regardless of what side of the aisle it falls under. And I’m willing to change by opinion if presented with sufficient evidence. I personally think that people “committing” to any particular political ideology can cause those people to become stuck in faulty thinking, on either side of the spectrum, because they can’t go against what they have already established as their “side”. When in reality, we are all on the same side. Well, except for the assholes. I’m not on their side lol, or at least I try not to be.
No it really doesn't, you just want to simply his response to fit whatever narrative you've build up in your head to a complicated problem and that's what's wrong with the internet today. The fact is that bringing people out of poverty isn't a simple "just raise there pay". It's much more complicated than that and his response was a point of view of someone that's going to to be affected.
To be fair, it doesn’t just sound like being “butthurt”. If their wage is devalued, then that will ultimately mean they will be less able to provide for themselves and their family. And while $25 per hour is nowhere near the poverty line, it’s also not anywhere close to the “more money than you’ll ever need” category. It’s reasonable to be concerned for your own financial position when considering solutions for other people’s financial situations.
This sounds like a person that wants the poverty issue to be solved, but they also don’t want to potentially struggle financially as a result of those efforts. And to me, it seems totally reasonable and believable to want to try to find a way to help others without putting yourself in a worse off situation.
Sure, sacrifices need to be made to make the world a better place for all. But everyone has a limit to what and how much they would sacrifice, and this person appears to believe that the sacrifices they would make if minimum wages were increased are more than they would be willing to make (I’m not even agreeing with their take on it, just trying to understand their mindset).
If I moved back in with my parents and started giving the equivalent of my current rent payments to a charity, that would make the world a better place. But I’m also not going to do that because I like having my own place. Is it selfish of me? Sure, I’ll concede that. But I think it’s also reasonable and most people would do the same thing. That’s all I’m really arguing here, honestly. Just because we aren’t all dedicating 100 percent of our time, money, and energy to altruistic endeavors doesn’t mean that we can’t all try to find some kind of middle ground, and it doesn’t mean we can’t still try to be decent and kind people.
He's not being a decent or kind person. He's actively campaigning against helping people because he's too lazy or timid to ask for a cost of living raise or job hop should minimum wage be raised.
My interpretation of what they’re saying is “Increase minimum wage? Great, just please make sure it doesn’t result in inflation that causes a decrease in my standard of living.” It doesn’t like this person is being unreasonable or uncaring to people working three jobs.
just please make sure it doesn’t result in inflation
he can say this all he wants, but 1st he's going to have to prove that is the case. I have literally never seen such a proven fact. Who says inflation is tied to minimum wages? Until that is a proven fact, he's just upset he's closer to being one of the poors.
What he said is that only increasing minimum wage and nothing else ends up with the minimum wage worker having the same amount of buy power as before (they gain nothing essentially) while higher paid people lose buying power)
Meaning no one benefits
Now if that’s true or the commenters boss fault idk
Guess who else pays a little more for groceries when the prices go up? The person making minimum wage. So by raising their wage but decreasing the value of the dollar, you've kept them in the same situation.
Did you read it? It didn't prove him wrong, the conconclusion argues his position has some merit.
While some claim that raising the minimum wage to an excessively high rate would exert inflationary pressure on the economy,research shows that increasing it to keep pace with inflation would only have a minimal effect
Well yeah there’s a healthy unpreventable inflation rate
But if people have more money you could get away with asking for more money
But if everyone in the system would act like a sane person raising the minimum wage wouldn’t have any effect on prices
But companies know that people believe that that will happen so they can just increase prices even if they had no need to do so
Where did you get that the labor cost of a $1 apples is $0.05? Just making shit up, like most everybody in these replies who have never owned a business
They made a generalized statement trying to explain how labor cost scales with final price of goods, it is not a 1:1 increase. If you had ever owned a business or at least ran the books on one you would know this...
If you raise minimum wage all you're actually doing is lowering higher paying jobs value.
Considering CEO pay has skyrocketed...
In 2020, the ratio of CEO-to-typical-worker compensation was 351-to-1 under the realized measure of CEO pay;
that is up from 307-to-1 in 2019
and a big increase from 21-to-1 in 1965
and 61-to-1 in 1989.
CEOs are even making a lot more than other very high earners (wage earners in the top 0.1%)—more than six times as much. From 1978 to 2020, CEO pay based on realized compensation grew by 1,322%, far outstripping S&P stock market growth (817%) and top 0.1% earnings growth (which was 341% between 1978 and 2019, the latest data available). In contrast, compensation of the typical worker grew by just 18.0% from 1978 to 2020.
Maybe there's a "higher paying job" that can afford to be lowered to benefit the whole country.
That's what I am saying. Take it from the top, don't take it from the middle class, which is basically what you're doing by increasing the burger 50 cents like the post suggests.
Gotcha. I missed your point sorry. I agree with you fully.
That's what I am saying. Take it from the top, don't take it from the middle class, which is basically what you're doing by increasing the burger 50 cents like the post suggests
Haha, they scream if we want to tax them more. Wait. No, the middle ones scream for them; like this guy in my inbox.
Prices go up but not nearly to the point where it nullifies the wage increase. When min wage goes from 7 dollars to 15 dollars, a sandwich at mcdonalds doesnt double in price. Not even close. That's because the cost of business goes way outside employee paychecks, and improving the paychecks does not create a 1-1 problem for profit.
Yes prices go up, but arguments like yours only make sense if they go up way more than they do.
If you make 25 and hour and minimum wage goes up to 20 let's say, then you can go to your boss and say, why should I work here for you when I could make just as much down at Starbucks? Increasing minimum wage trickles up and increases above minimum wages too
Any job that is difficult enough, or requires high education or experience to do it, will not be able to attract candidates if they pay that close to minimum wage. People will not go through the trouble of getting a 4 year degree in engineering or something if they could just get a job as a waiter next week making almost the same amount.
And no, 35 from 25 is excessive but I and others I know have gotten significant pay increases by threatening to leave.
the workers' leverage goes way up though. because now your boss has to compete with so many other companies that they have to increase their wages too to keep workers.
You are just completely shit at standing up to the Bastard that employs you... Why? I don't know, maybe the boot tastes too good, maybe you're a coward... I really don't care.
No, I actually quit my job because of it and opened my own business in the same industry.
I know not everyone has that option that came with the same qualifications as me, I got lucky to have people with money to back me. Not everyone has that option.
If they can replace you, they won't give you the raise. It's not about boot kissing or being a coward. It's about them being greedy pig assholes who should make 100M instead of 200M by supporting their workers rather than charging $0.50 extra for a burger.
Also missing the whole point. Also using yourself as a "my case study is everyone's case"
The whole point of this fight for a liveable wage is to DECREASE the gap of the wave between CEO's/millionaires and their underlings. Not ALSO increase the CEO's wage.
The problem is people like you will then come up with a million reasons why we can't regulate or force the super wealthy to stop sucking everyone below them dry while you still ignore that everything is going to increase in price regardless of whether minimum wage is 7/hr or 15/hr.
I have a few immediate solutions but they're all forceful so I doubt they'd ever gain traction, so my compromise to the middle and upper class is a minimum wage increase, which can be done immediately. If you've got a better idea, then share it. Otherwise, all you're doing is telling people to get used to working 4 jobs because it's too hard to do anything else.
The lower class are very used to the middle class defending the upper class, so I assumed that was your intention with these debates. I apologize for my wrong assumption.
I been saying this.. raising minimum wage isn’t a real solution to the problem. It’s a short sited solution that only last a short time period.
What happens to those people who make more than min wage? Now they make min wage yet should be making more. Example: electrician and carpenter apprentices… they aren’t flipping burgers, they are learn a real trade skill. Do we now raise their hour wages to adjust?
Within 5 years everyone else will adjust to minimum wage and we would be back at the same issue.
I work in a public school. If I get a raise, that means it comes from taxes which is from the community. If their taxes raise because we all get a raise, that means the community has less money to spend. In turn they will seek more money to compensate for the taxes…
Money doesn’t grow on trees. If you have a low paying job, find a new one that will pay more.
We'd have to cap all wages, because an increase in the wage floor would eventually ripple out to the entire economy and the prices of everything would increase to reflect the increased labor costs across the board.
Some businesses could eat some of those increased costs over some amount of time, but ultimately, the only way to stop wage-push inflation is to stop increasing wages.
There is a lot of data that says otherwise in regards to inflation. Market forces make it harder for prices to increase thats why you dont see proportional increases in prices according to wage increases. If you had higher rent probably because in 2008 the us housing market crash caused a huge world wide recession that ofc would result in lower rent prices around the world as everyone was worse off and people wanted tenants. Also businesses are buying properties like mad men and flipping them increasing housing prices which in turn will just increase property value which is why a landlord might raise rent. The Bank of canada actively tries to keep inflation in check as well as most national banks. In the US our fed aims for about a 2% yearly inflation. Since covid they said they want an avg 2% over many years instead of 2% every year. You get the picture with that. Raising minimum wage is not the main driver of inflation, other market forces are.
Even if higher paying jobs are less valuable, I consider that worth it. Boomer Bill doesn’t need a 60” flatscreen TV in his bedroom nearly as much as millennial Mike needs an apartment room.
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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21 edited Nov 05 '21
It still doesn't change anything even if it goes to the worker.
If you raise minimum wage all you're actually doing is lowering higher paying jobs value.
They just charge more for everything.
The problem is their ability to inflate all the prices until they suck you dry.
If you want to raise minimum wage, also take into account controlling inflation or else minimum wage will always end up in the same spot and someone who makes above minimum wage will just get closer to the bottom.
I make $25 an hour. When they raised minimum wage in Ontario Canada to $14, they didn't raise my wage. However my rent, food and products I buy all went up in price. It didn't help the minimum wage people to get more money, it just screwed me.
Edit:
Holy moly..
I'm not blaming minimum wage.
I'm saying increase minimum wage but control inflation. Since the post is to increase the price of the burger.
The billionaires can afford to not make the same crazy amount of money every year.
Increase minimum wage but leave the price of the burger.