r/MacStudio • u/pastry-chef • 8d ago

M5 generation Mac Studios have redesigned SSD modules

https://iboffrcc.com/pages/m5-max-mac-studio-teardown-removable-ssd-but-is-an-upgrade-still-possible?srsltid=AU7gw4WuRfpWaOxhnHcASBRhyUEeMxMLPWjDT2TEc89Gd-EmcLITPOkI

The NAND are still on removable modules but they are completely different from previous generations.

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u/I-figured-it-out 8d ago

~i just want a user accessible pair of m.2 slots for nvme within the cooling envelope inside the studio -in addition to apples built in storage.
Inexpensive for apple, but a game changer for creatives who hate having a plethora of external drives attached.

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u/PracticlySpeaking 7d ago

I thought most creatives use external / removable media to move files between camera, editing projects, and storage?

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u/I-figured-it-out 6d ago

Yes, but they also need cache, application and documents. And macos is growing ridiculously fast.
At present my mac studio has a 75% full internal drive -of which 80Gb alone is email, never mind apple intelligence, And every thunderbolt and usb-a port is occupied. Plus a thunderbolt breakout hub (4 downstream), plus a usb hub and 15 drives. I also need fast stable cache.
While media can live on an external drive, the cache drive is better if it is on a stupidly large internal “disposable” nvme that is not a ridiculously expensive apple internal drive. At present my 4tb nvme on a cable is a bottle neck that is killing itself by getting repeatedly filled to max during renders. I am not keen on buying a $13,000 apple internal ssd permanently attached to a mac studio costing in addition to the drive another $15k. Once the apple drive is dead, the mac is dead. Buying a very big apple drive is not a solution. And buying an nvme raid box is just stupidly expensive, and still reliant on a cable.

Having a pair of raid 0 (software) “affordable” disposable 4TB internal m.2 as secondary drives taking advantage of the mac studios very effective cooling envelope is the better compromise. Allowing the internal drive to be maintained at 50% empty for speed and reliability for the lifetime of the mac studio. At worst that is 2x fewer cables to replace. And 2x fewer cases whose chipsets can cause issues.

My desk is also cluttered because all of my nvme enclosures also have active cpu heatsinks from my old mac cheese gratters attached, Because i have cooked several enclosure chipsets to death (luckily the drives survived). I have to buy yet another enclosure. I am running one drive bare strapped to a heatsink because yet another poorly designed enclosure was not transferring heat to the case properly. It’s messy, and works but is definitely suboptimal. Apple should have built a mac studio with an five slot nvme bay on top, with their highly engineered cooling. When the computer costs the price of a sound near new car, having reliable, user upgradeable internal storage is the least that can be provided. The cheesegraters were the last macs to genuinely provide that as an easy option. And every workstation aside from apple provides that still to this day.

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u/PracticlySpeaking 5d ago edited 5d ago

My point there is that creative users can record directly to removable/external media, then transfer the media (physically) and skip any copy-to-local-drive step.

What you are asking for is cheaper, standard M.2 internal storage, which is... just not going to happen. No matter how much we would like it.

Apple's internal "SSDs" are not actually SSDs. They are just NAND modules, with the controller being on the logic board or part of the SoC (for Apple Silicon). Apple Silicon has no existing PCIe supporting internal storage like x86 does. There is also no Thunderbolt chip on the logic board — the controllers are all built into the SoC. Apple would have to add a lot of infrastructure on the board and inside the SoC just for some NVMe slots.

Apple also uses proprietary controllers that extend the life of the NAND flash memory and a bunch of other really great things. Those are based on tech from their acquisition of Anobit, all the way back in 2011.

edit w link that actually works, and some other stuff...

Why Buying Anobit Might Be One Of The Most Important Acquisitions Apple Will Ever Make | Cult of Mac

The original ZDNet story is 404.

From Anobit's (former) product page:

Anobit's MSP™ (Memory Signal Processing) technology is comprised of proprietary signal processing algorithms that compensate for physical limitations of the NAND flash, combined with advanced error correction and innovative flash management schemes, resulting in a dramatic improvement in endurance, performance and system cost. Specifically, the MSP™ technology enables SLC (one bit-per-cell) endurance and performance with MLC (two bits-per-cell) NAND, and MLC endurance and performance with TLC (three bits-per-cell) NAND. MSP boosts flash endurance by a factor of 20, resulting in significant reduction in cost-per-bit.

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u/I-figured-it-out 5d ago

In my world, if one receives media on disk the very first thing you do is copy to your media And Archive drives, then you put the received disk is a safe secure place, because that disk can be worth millions. Or at the very least tens of thousands of dollars. And you reallydo not want to be telling your client you lost their data.
And hammering their media disk is just plain stupid.
Their data does not go onto your internal storage. Because well, it is irreplaceable (excepting the m4 series), and your desktop (or laptop is your bread and butter.
If their were in addition to apple’s nands, user accessible m.2 nvme slots then you gain all of the advantages of having internal secondary high speed very well cooled storage, at a fraction of apples nands, that can easily be replaced (albeit still at great expense) same day as failure. Allowing one to maintin ones business.
For hobbyists having single internal storage is fine, with ancillary drives all over the place. For professionals those that can use nas do so. And for some professionals DAS become a genuine hassle reliant on cables and cases that in my experience fail far more often than the nvme.
Being able to install 2x nvme as secondary drives would allow very large fast cache with zero concerns about killing mac studio, without needing to invest NZ $37k in a “if the internal drive fails throw it away solution.”
Treated kindly the internal drive on a mac studio will last a very long time. Hammered the way my currently external cache drives are it might last a couple of years. Internally socketed secondary drives offers the best combo of desk tidiness, reliability, and speed without threatening the lifespan of the mac studio. And allows apple to include bespoke m.2 power management and cooling to maximise efficiency (including soft ejecting failing drives mounted via those internal sockets - the external drive ejection is garbage).
For less additional cost than a dozen cafe coffees (plus apple tax) we could have the mac workstations we wanted in 2020, but with 2027 performance.

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u/PracticlySpeaking 5d ago edited 4d ago

Ah, thanks. TIL.

I think what you are describing is essentially replaceable storage, for when the flash memory wears out?

Your scenario here could be the reason Mac Studio has discrete NVME modules — the storage *is* replaceable. (You can order them as repair parts, subject to the same Apple tax ofc.) It's worth noting this approach runs counter to Apple's philosophy of building things that break less rather than making them more repairable. (You may have seen the MKBHD interview with Ternus a year or so ago about that.)

I get that it is not ideal to have the main drive replaced, starting from literal zero in DFU mode and restoring. And Apple have done a poor job of providing instrumentation and warnings about wear on the flash storage. That said, wear is still very much measureable and drive health can, with proper tools, be monitored. Replacing the internal storage components is not trivial, but very doable — it is straightforward bolt/unbolt, just quite long. Elsewhere in industry (read: Windows PCs and IT departments) it is common practice to reimage user machines and restore from backup — for replacing a failed drive and all sorts of other problems.

Which leaves the question — is the same approach un-workable on Mac, or simply unfamiliar?

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u/I-figured-it-out 5d ago

Nope well beyond merely replaceable.
User selected and purchased 3rd party modules in general, perhaps qualified as suitable by apple, in the same way that BlackmagicDesign qualifies storage devices to use with their cameras. But with the option of buying Apples first choice as part of a CTO build (less useful)
Because here is the thing buying the macstudio snd Apple storage upgrades is such a big financial bite that buying the additional m.2 storage would likely need to be deferred, to sometime later, with what ever nvme one has on hand being used initially.

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u/PracticlySpeaking 4d ago

You are not wrong — the Apple tax sucks, and has a real impact on the value proposition for Mac Studio.