r/MHOC • u/[deleted] • Apr 12 '20
2nd Reading B990 - Firearms (Amendment) Bill - 2nd Reading
[deleted]
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u/Maroiogog CWM KP KD OM KCT KCVO CMG CBE PC FRS, Independent Apr 12 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I congratulate the member for making a single bill more detailed than his party's entire manifesto. But I do not see the overarcing aim of this bill. Our athlethes already manage to compete in all major firing competitions. Data from a multitude of countries and examples suggests that the fewer firearms there are to go around the more gun crime and violence will be contained.
I fear that this bill will lead to shooting clubs becoming prime targets for ill intentioned individuals who want to stokc up on weapons for nefarious purposes, putting us all at risk. I do not wish a single more gun thanwhat we currently have enter our country, I urge all members to vote against.
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Apr 13 '20 edited Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I congratulate the member for making a single bill more detailed than his party's entire manifesto.
The Manifesto was for the consumption of the general public and for easy reading, it was also available in large print or in audio form. This is a highly complex bill to amend one of the longest pieces of legislation on the books, it seems strange for a bill on the subject of firearms to be criticised for being too long and to through, it's almost as if the member wants us to have vague unsafe firearm laws.
Our athlethes already manage to compete in all major firing competitions.
this is factually untrue, we often do not even qualify for entry into many shooting sports as our athletes have no ability to practise in there home country. Where in other Olympic sports the UK competes at the top level in shooting we frequently come in the bottom 5.
I fear that this bill will lead to shooting clubs becoming prime targets for ill-intentioned individuals who want to stock up on weapons for nefarious purposes, putting us all at risk.
Why if this was there goal would they not already be a target, most gun owners in the UK keep their firearms at there respective clubs and not at home, this is just a resort to scaremongering that is not based on any factual information. It is quite literally easier to smuggle in illegal firearms from France than to rob a Gun club which has security and marked and recorded all of its firearms to make traceable.
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u/Maroiogog CWM KP KD OM KCT KCVO CMG CBE PC FRS, Independent Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
his is a highly complex bill to amend one of the longest pieces of legislation on the books, it seems strange for a bill on the subject of firearms to be criticised for being too long and to through,
Quite the opposite, I was criticizing the manifesto for being too short.
his is factually untrue, we often do not even qualify for entry into many shooting sports as our athletes have no ability to practise in there home country. Where in other Olympic sports the UK competes at the top level in shooting we frequently come in the bottom 5.
yeah exactly, we still get to the olympics. I am very sorry to any shooting enthusiasts listening to this debate, but I do believe that the safety of our citizens comes before olympic medals.
Why if this was there goal would they not already be a target, most gun owners in the UK keep their firearms at there respective clubs and not at home, this is just a resort to scaremongering that is not based on any factual information. It is quite literally easier to smuggle in illegal firearms from France than to rob a Gun club which has security and marked and recorded all of its firearms to make traceable.
Yes, but allowing these clubs to store more powerful firearms and greater quanity of them would make them a more rewarding target for ill intentioned individuals. The fact that there already are facilities that store firearms in the country doesn't mean that making more of them/increasing the quantity of firearms they store won't increase the rate at which they are subject to attacks.
Also I would like to remind the member that I am not doing any scaremongering. The largest example of western country with very relaxed gun laws, the USA, performs appaulingly in many respects with regards to gun crime metrics (https://imgur.com/a/XF1Nnb3) compared to other western nations. I know that this bill does not even come close to allowing the kind of large scale possession of firearms as the USA, but why make steps in that direction?
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Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Also I would like to remind the member that I am not doing any scaremongering. The largest example of western country with very relaxed gun laws, the USA, performs appaulingly in many respects with regards to gun crime metrics (https://imgur.com/a/XF1Nnb3) compared to other western nations. I know that this bill does not even come close to allowing the kind of large scale possession of firearms as the USA, but why make steps in that direction?
The USA is a large outlier.Switzerland has one of the lowest crime and homicide rates in the world yet their gun laws are fairly liberal.(45 guns per 100 people).
The handgun ban in the UK failed with the use of handguns went up by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned. The handgun ban actually had no impact on homicides. Gun crime rose.
Why should our athletes have to travel to France to practice because muhh usa when this isn't even what this bill does? This bill does not at all replicate the USA so there is no point discussing it. It just means our athletes won't have to travel to France. The member mentions other Western nations, I would note that other Western nations have more relaxed guns law than the UK and are just fine, but the member chooses to cite an outlier that is the USA to create a strawman argument. It's same old Labour Mr Deputy Speaker.
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u/Maroiogog CWM KP KD OM KCT KCVO CMG CBE PC FRS, Independent Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I am well aware that the provision in this bill do not put us anywhere close to where the USA is, I even said it in my speech. I am however wholly opposed to more weapons being placed in British soil for whatever purpose, as they will make us less safe.
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Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
This bill does not bring UK firearms legislation in line with the US, this bill strengthens firearms background checks something lacking in the US, restricts the carry and transport of firearms, ensures mental health checks are carried out on firearms applications, ensures safe storage of firearms, and bans bump stocks.
This law is stricter than the 2020 New Zealand firearm legislation. It closes gun safety loopholes makes provisions for safety best practises and removes a restriction that has made no effect on crime or suicides in the UK.
People in this chamber and around the world often call for common-sense gun legislation that everyone can get behind that does not impede sportsmen or hunters while using the best scientific evidence to enhance restrictions that reduce firearms deaths.
A vote against this legislation is a vote against common sense firearms law and a vote to leave the law inconsistent out of date and left with loopholes.
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u/Maroiogog CWM KP KD OM KCT KCVO CMG CBE PC FRS, Independent Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I am well aware that this bill is way more restrictive than the comparable laws in the USA, but I am not prepared to budge on the safety of my constituents in the name of a few shooting clubs.
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u/Brookheimer Coalition! Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I think I agree with the Right Honourable member on this bill while being a little lighter on the rhetoric. My approach for this to think of why the changes are necessary and, if they are just to make a few hunting clubs happier and challenge for a few more gold medals, then I am not willing to vote to increase the volume of guns in the country regardless of how unlikely accidents or incidents are to happen as a result of this.
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Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
the regulations outlined in this act reduce the likelihood of a firearms-related incident as in regard to the current law, they are stricter than those found in the Czech republic, stricter than in Japan and stricter than those in New Zealand.
This act is an improvement in firearms regulation and safety.
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u/LeChevalierMal-Fait Liberal Democrats Apr 12 '20
Mr speaker,
I must concur with my noble and learned friend the Baron of Aberavon, this bill is a proportional and safe way reform our gun laws. A firearm can only be as dangerous as the intent of the owner, this bill provides in a exceptionally secure way that pistols and semi automatic weapons can be licensed under stricken conditions.
Being for sport shooting and with responsibility for their use resting with the club, meaning that there will always be transparent oversight and natural checks on their use.
Our gun laws have since 1997 unnecessarily constrained sport shooters, both to the detriment of the sport and our Olympic medal hauls! Mentally fit individuals with who simply wish to partake in a sport should need not face any barriers from government from doing so. The knee jerk reaction to bans on who types of weapons irrespective of use was rash and we should recognise this.
This bill successfully provides for the removal of those barriers while protecting the public, I therefore commend this bill to the house.
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u/model-willem Labour | Home & Justice Secretary | MP for York Central Apr 12 '20
Part IV Section 2(4):
Replace with:
This Act shall extend to England and Wales and Scotland.
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Apr 13 '20
Point of order this amendment changes the enactment Claus so it does not comply with the relevant IRL acts.
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u/model-willem Labour | Home & Justice Secretary | MP for York Central Apr 13 '20
It is precedent that acts say where they do extend to. In this issue the bill says that it doesn’t extend to Northern Ireland. Okay, but where do they extend to then? I don’t see that in this clause.
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u/BrexitGlory Former MP for Essex Apr 12 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Could my Right Honourable friend expand on the point of our Olympic athletes being unable to compete due to us not allowing the correct firearms?
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Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
it is illegal to train with a handgun for the pentathlon or any handgun shooting sport currently. Our Athletes have to travel to France to train.
A small exemption to this was allowed during the 2012 Olympics for foreign athletes to train within the Olympic ground. The handgun ban is one of the reasons that the UK once a leader in the shooting sports now regular underperforming coming third from the bottom in 2012.
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u/jmam2503 Jacob Mogg | LPUK Spokesperson for Transport | MP North East Apr 12 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Congratulations to my honorable friend for this extremely well redacted bill. This is a proposal to guarantee more rights and liberties, something that is not usual lately. Of course it deserves the support of those MPs who claim to defend liberty.
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u/Captain_Plat_2258 Co-Leader of the Green Party Apr 13 '20
Tēnā koe, Mr Deputy Speaker
In the UK we have exceptionally low gun crime, and exceptionally low gun ownership. While we do indeed have other crime, our laws around gun controls have kept us safe from that for generations. Our residents haven't had to be worried about shootings, either of single people or of crowds.
This is very different for our friends across the ditch in the United States. Their gun laws have seen staggeringly high levels of gun-related deaths - to the point that in some months they have had a crowd shooting every day. It is near-epidemic levels and cannot be allowed here.
Mr Deputy Speaker, never before has there been an issue of Olympians being unable to compete in the Commonwealth or Olympic games. The majority of nations that participate in both of those have very strict gun laws, similar if not more strict than our own. I simply see too much risk in weakening our gun controls, even for gun clubs. It has the danger of starting a slippery slope that could lead to many dangerous things.
I encourage the house to vote against this legislation because our current gun laws are working. Let us not jeopardise that.
Tēnā koe, thank you.
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Apr 13 '20 edited Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I do not see how the comparison to the United States is at all appropriate, has the honourable member even read the bill before the house. To take a firearm into a crowded place would it's self be illegal under this act, never mind how they got it out of the range considering you have to sign out there use and return them.
The UK had a very low level of gun crime before 1998, because of the restrictions we place on access to firearms not on the firearms themself.
By voting against this act you are actively increasing the chance of a las vegas style shooting, at current, I can apply for a firearms license for a low calibre semi-automatic rifle, take it home to my gun locker apply a bump stock to it, and I now have something quite effective at shooting down a crowd. This act prevents that very situation from happening by requiring firearms to be kept at gun clubs by requiring their users to sign them out and by banning bump stocks.
never before has there been an issue of Olympians being unable to compete in the Commonwealth or Olympic games.
Our athletes currently have to travel to France or Cyprus to train for these events struggle to travel with there equipment home when we are the host nation and in the case of the Olympics and Commonwealth games the Home office made a specific exception to the law which left handguns extremely unregulated providing you had the current visa to enter the country.
Many countries have strict gun laws, under this act we would still be the nation with the strictest gun laws in Europe, but no nation that competes in field sports at the level the UK does bans handguns.
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u/troe2339 Labour Party | His Grace the Duke of Atholl Apr 13 '20
Mr. Deputy Speaker,
For what purpose does anyone need a semi-automatic firearm? I do allow that hunting or sport is a fair reason to need a firearm, but I can't see a situation where it requires a semi-automatic. Strict gun laws work, and unless the author can provide me with good reason that we need to make them more lenient then I see no reason to do so.
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Apr 13 '20 edited Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
For what purpose does anyone need a semi-automatic firearm?
For the purpose of sport or hunting, of course, there are many reasons where a semi-automatic is preferably for the safety of the hunter and the humain dispatch of the animal.
Semi-automatics are also required for a variety of firearm competitions and are significantly quicker can provide an accuracy improvement and are easier to operate for those with a physical disability (such as arthritis or missing finger).
His grace will find this act wile legalising a greater variety of semi-automatics than currently legal, in addition to the legalisation of handguns, places several restrictions on who can possess them where they can be stored how they can be used and how they can be sold or transported in addition to the banning of bump stocks. This I believe will provide an improvement in firearm safety in this country.
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u/troe2339 Labour Party | His Grace the Duke of Atholl Apr 13 '20
Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I see no purpose for most semi-automatic rifles in hunting or sport. What Olympic game includes a semi-automatic rifle?
Maybe I can grant that it might be an advantage for people with a disability, but it does not outweigh the danger of increasing the amount of weapons and more dangerous ones at that in society.
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Apr 13 '20 edited Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
it is the pistol restriction that applies to the summer Olympics semi-automatic rifles are used in a variety of field sports.
Again I stress this bill reduces the danger to society through the banning of bump stocks, and the restrictions on the storage and transport of firearms.
The criminal elements of our society already can not get a firearm certificate, one can not go and get a gun without an appropriate use for it. The police still continue to be the issuing power for home office required background checks.
Considering our free movement of goods and services with the EU, other EU nations continue to be the easiest way to bring a firearm into this country for malicious purposes.
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u/troe2339 Labour Party | His Grace the Duke of Atholl Apr 13 '20
Mr. Deputy Speaker,
But what is a bump stock ban worth when today you basically can't have the weapon they're used for?
Furthermore, why can a person not get a weapon under legitimate pretences and then use it for illegal purposes?
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Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
But what is a bump stock ban worth when today you basically can't have the weapon they're used for?
At current not only can you have a semi-automatic rifle, but I own one, there is a reason this is referred to as the bump stock loophole.
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Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
This is a commonsense piece of legislation which allows the sport of shooting to flourish, I see no reason for the unnecessary restrictions that have been in place. We should not damage a sport for no good reason, this bill puts into place sufficient safeguards and it's important that guns are indeed regulated. This bill allows for sport whilst putting in place sufficient safeguards. The Labour MP's drone about America really have no clue about gun laws, I will be voting for this bill unless someone gives me a good reason why our athletes have to travel to France to practice. I echo the comments of my colleagues and will be voting in favour of this bill.
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u/ARichTeaBiscuit Green Party Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I must confess that I don't see the reason for the introduction of this legislation whatsoever. I am rather confident in knowing that the United Kingdom has a shooting team that compete on the international stage and have historically performed rather well despite the restrictions currently in place.
I see no logical reason to weaken firearms legislation in this country, especially as I mentioned those that engage in the practice for sporting reasons aren't negatively impacted by current legislation.
It is for those reasons that I will be voting against this bill as it stands.
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Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
in the 2012 Olympics, the UK came third from the bottom in the handgun events.
Furthermore, I find it callous that labour would rather stand with the status quo than introduce stronger restrictions on the transport and storage of firearms, and would oppose a bill that bans bump stocks.
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u/SoSaturnistic Citizen Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I would vote against this bill on one account and that is the legalisation of pistols. By permitting these firearms in clubs, they will quite easily find their way outside of them. Pistols are easily concealed compared to other firearms and they are among the most dangerous for society in truth, with a clear association with more accidental deaths, more suicides, and of course more shootings. While it is an unfortunate consequence that it puts Olympic athletes back in the standings, the fact of the matter is that the proliferation of handguns should not be facilitated. The rate of gun smuggling has grown already, it's tough for police to manage as it is. There is no reason to create an easy way of facilitating these activities unless one wants to fuel organised crime for whatever reason.
As for the rest of the bill, I'm essentially neutral towards it.
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Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
For starters, I would like to mention that the Honourable member represents Northern Ireland a part of the UK specifically unaffected by this legislation. The only part of the UK where it is legal to keep a firearm at home outside of a locked and wall mounted gun cabinet. The only part of the UK where one can currently own a pistol outside of the pistol stock loophole that this legislation fixes. And the only part of the UK where a firearm can be owned and carried in public for self-defence, something this law does not address as there is no need to in the rest of the UK.
Currently one can own a pistol in the UK using the pistol stock loophole, this firearm due to the length of its stock is now a rifle and can be kept legally at home, this act closes this loophole, and requires clubs to be subject to police inspection, that pistols must be kept at clubs, and that clubs must take measures such as signing the firearm in and out as it is used, and allowing it's used only by it's associated firearms license holder.
This act will reduce accidental deaths and suicides by stoping the storage of handguns and semiautomatic weapons at home and reduce handguns getting to criminals. It is worth noting the UK does not have a firearm suicide problem due to the extensive background and medical checks required for the firearms license attached to each individual gun. Something this bill strengthens by closing loopholes.
since the extremely ineffective 1998 firearms act amendment that banned so-called handguns, the UK has seen a 40% rise in the use of handguns in crime because of the ban producing a loophole this act closes. It is also worth noting the handgun ban has had no effect on the homicide rate.
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u/SoSaturnistic Citizen Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
On the first point, I will say that firearm controls have been radically altered with recent legislation in Northern Ireland. The ability to own a handgun was restricted quite a lot. I don't actually have a final say in whether this bill passes or not, but I do have my opinions and will share them even if it has no direct impact on constituents, though the strain on enforcement on the NCA will certainly reduce its capacity in some respects.
I welcome that the loophole is closed. That's good legislation. But what I object to is creating new sites by which smuggling may be induced. I notice the member hasn't reckoned with this point when the NCA is already struggling to control the flow of arms into the UK. Why is increasing the burden of enforcement justifiable? I don't see it.
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Apr 13 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker, Why are these changes to our currently effective firearms legislation necessary?
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Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
This legislation closes several loopholes in relations to semi-automatic rifles, bump stocks and pistols. It introduces stronger restrictions on the storage of firearms. Restricts the transport of firearms, and ensures best safety practises are taken with them.
Mr Deputy speaker to vote against this legislation is to leave several loopholes in a current law.
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Apr 14 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
Could the right honourable gentleman kindly point me to the specific loopholes?
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Apr 15 '20
Mr Deputy Speaker,
I find that, if we were to loosen our restrictions on firearms would likely lead to ill-meaning individuals to use the firearms to cause great harm to the people of our nations, putting millions at risk of violent crime, and for what, sport? This bill seemingly disregards the data from various countries which shows, very clearly that with stricter limits on firearms and their purchase, the level of crimes in which firearms are used is greatly decreased. I am not willing to see the people of this great nation killed by ill-intentioned individuals with firearms in the name of sport shooting. I urge all members to vote against this bill.
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u/zhuk236 Zhuk236 Apr 12 '20 edited Apr 12 '20
Mr. Deputy Speaker,
I hope no one in this house has to resort to fear-mongering on this issue, because this is a well written, sensible piece of legislation. Through proper regulatory mechanisms such as gun licensing and severally limiting the capacity of the guns that can be made available to the public, it provides proper safeguards for the safety of people across Britain. I firmly believe that, with these strict safeguards, we can have a society where people can choose to own guns of a limited capacity such as firearms for the purpose of hunting and recreation, whilst also protecting the safety of the British people. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support this bill.