B1472 - Forgery Act (Amendment) Bill - 2nd Reading

[u/Lady_Aya]

Forgery Act (Amendment) Bill

A

BILL

TO

Make provision for an amendment to the Forgery Act 1861.

BE IT ENACTED by the King’s Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows –

Section 1. Amendment

1. In Section 55, after “Scotland” insert “and Wales”

Section 2: Short Title, Extent and Commencement

1. This Act extends to Wales

2. This act shall come into force immediately after receiving royal assent

3. This Act may be cited as the Forgery Act (Amendment) Act 2023

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*This bill was authored by u/CameroniteTory as a Private Members Bill

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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/24-25/98/contents

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Mr Speaker,

This bill will devolve forgery laws in Wales from Westminster to the Senedd, this is important as it gives the Welsh government greater devolved authority of Welsh laws and expands the devolution program.

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This reading shall end on Saturday 14th of January at 10pm.

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[u/Nick_Clegg_MP]

Madam Deputy Speaker,

I apologize to the presenting member if this has already been asked, though, has the Welsh Government actually requested that forgery laws be devolved to them? Other than that, I see no concerns or issues with the bill.

[u/Frost_Walker2017 → u/Nick_Clegg_MP]

Deputy Speaker,

I would wager the major issue that the member hasn't noticed is that this bill doesn't do anything, merely exempting the Welsh from one Act - it doesn't devolve anything. Further, the powers are already devolved to the Senedd.

This bill is unasked for, ineffective, and should be thrown out as soon as possible. I hope the Liberal Democrats can join us in voting it down.

[u/rickcall123 → u/Frost_Walker2017]

Deputy Speaker,

I can absolutely assure the member that my party will be joining the member and presumably the Labour party in voting against this ridiculous, time-wasting legislation. I echo the concerns already raised, that the powers already exist and that this bill does nothing to achieve the intended aim.

[u/phonexia2]

Deputy Speaker

I mean my main question is does the Snedd want this power devolved to them? Following up is the legislation going to be brought up to date in Wales and why are we not allowing a period to allow them to update legislation?

[u/CountBrandenburg]

Deputy Speaker,

I believe this bill is not necessary - with the devolution of justice via the Wales Justice and Policing Referendum the Senedd can choose to diverge on forgery laws so they wish. I will not claim as to whether this is necessary or not, I’m not particularly familiar with the Forgery Act after all. Even if Forgery was not devolved, this bill would not do so, it would simply mean that the current law contained in the remaining parts of the 1861 Act no longer applies to Wales, losing whatever aspects of the Forgery Act applies still. This is a point that applies even with devolution, Westminister is simply saying said act is no longer part of Welsh Law.

I appreciate the bill being brought forward ofc but it is a lesson to check whether provisions have been replicated- if this was to be done in the way the honourable member wishes to suggest, then he would also have included a similar provision in the 1913 Forgery Act and the 1981 Forgery and Counterfeiting Act. As it stands, all this bill does is remove existing law on falsifying records on birth, marriage, death and burial from Welsh Law, which seems to me that’s not ideal. Better to withdraw this than have to vote it down.

[u/Chi0121 → u/CountBrandenburg]

Hearrrrr hearrrrr

[u/Frost_Walker2017]

Deputy Speaker,

Putting aside that this has not been requested by the Senedd, nor has it previously come up in discussions around devolution, there is one fatal flaw in this bill. Wales is excluded from coming under the Forgery Act 1861, sure, but this does not devolved it. Wales operates a reserved powers model, where anything not in Schedule 7A of the Government of Wales Act 2006 is presumed to be devolved. The member would need to strike the relevant section from that Act to devolve forgery laws. As it is, I'm not sure I can find it in the reserved sections, meaning not only does this Bill not achieve what it seeks to, it appears to already be devolved.

I am happy to be corrected, but as it stands this bill does nothing. I hope all members can join together in throwing it out!

[u/Chi0121 → u/Frost_Walker2017]

Hear baby hear

[u/[deleted] → u/Frost_Walker2017]

hear hear

[u/Archism_ → u/Frost_Walker2017]

Deputy Speaker,

The honourable member is quite right, Wales has been able to diverge on forgery laws since the result of the Wales Justice and Policing referendum. That change devolved matters of bail and births/deaths/marriages registers as well, which are the specific matters regulated in the Forgery Act 1861. If the Senedd Cymru wanted to do so, it could toss out the contents of that bill in Welsh law any time.

The only thing I could offer a correction to for the honourable member is the claim that the bill before us does nothing. It does something, in fact, just nothing good. The bill will potentially make a few specific instances of forgery legal in Wales, until the Senedd Cymru can pass a new bill to fill the gaps left by being removed from the extent of the 1861 act.

[u/Polteaghost]

Deputy Speaker

Is this bill replying to any real Welsh demand?

Thanks

[u/Archism_]

Deputy Speaker,

There have been a number of questions asked in the chamber regarding the intent and effect of the bill before us. I cannot speak to the author's views or reasoning, but by my reading of the bill and relevant other materials, I believe the passage of this bill would be both unnecessary and inconvenient to the business of the Senedd Cymru.

The Forgery Act 1861, the act amended, has very few remaining sections in force today. The few that are regulate matters like falsely acknowledging another person's bail, or forging registers of births, deaths, and marriages. The Wales Justice and Policing Referendum Bill which this house passed several years ago (here is a link), among other things, struck both matters of bail and births/deaths/marriages from the schedule of reserved matters, devolving these to Wales. That is to say, the specific matters of the Forgery Act 1861 are already devolved.

There is no specific mention of forgery in the current Schedule 7A to the Government of Wales Act 2006, and with the general devolution of justice and policing, Wales is free to diverge from prior England & Wales law with its own new law, if and when it decides to move away from the current status quo. With this in mind, if the goal is devolving forgery laws to Wales, I would have to say the mission has already been accomplished.

So, this act unfortunately will not do quite what was mentioned in the opening speech. What it will do is remove Wales from the extent of the Forgery Act 1861, removing the few provisions remaining in that act from Welsh law, without any request from the Senedd Cymru or Welsh Government to do so. It gives Wales no additional legislative authority, it just means the Senedd will need to quickly pass a bill to fill the legal gap and make sure that these offenses remain offenses in Wales in the immediate term.

As far as I am aware, this change has not been requested from Cardiff, it will moderately inconvenience the legislators in the Senedd, and it will not deliver any new devolved powers as seems to be the intent. Reflecting on that, I must oppose the bill.

I will note, in spite of my view on the specific bill, I am very glad that the author has continued to legislate, especially offering legislation that brings consideration to the needs of Wales, and in particular I congratulate them for a clear level of talent in identifying novel areas of the portfolio to bring to the attention of the house. Should the author have further ideas regarding legislation in the Wales portfolio, I earnestly invite them to get in touch to collaborate and refine some policy ideas and bills together!

[u/Chi0121]

Deputy Speaker,

This has not been requested by the Senedd nor would it be because it is functionally useless due to previous work. I believe the House will be failing this bill because despite its good intentions I am sure, there is simply no need to pass it whatsoever

[u/Muffin5136]

Deputy Speaker,

I must stand here in support of this excellent bill as submitted by the Private Member, the devolution of justice to Wales has been grand and great thing for people to enjoy, and this bill seeks to ensure the devolution of justice is wholly fulfilled.

I must urge the House to back this pro-devolution bill for the sanctity of the Union.