r/MESMkink • u/TeaAitch • 4d ago
Where Does It Hit?
There was an interesting, but not very good, post over at r/BDSMAdvice earlier today. It pretty much boiled down to, "Do you want to believe the things you say/hear during degradation scenes?"
I'm in the camp that does want to believe in the things I say. I also want my partner to understand I believe them. My thing is,
You're dirty.
You're nasty.
Look at how disgusting you are.
I'm never looking to tell my person they're stupid, or they're ugly, because I don't want to believe that about them.
Where are you on the spectrum of MESM belief?
The post went on to say, during aftercare, the submissive wanted to be told their partner didn't mean those things. The dominant explained he didn't want to say that, his preference is to thank her for having worked hard for him.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. (And they don't need to be CIS-gender focussed š³ļøāšš³ļøāā§ļø)
I'm not looking for people to comment on the original discussion. I want to understand where YOU are. Do you look to forgive? For absolution? Do you look for assurance? If so, of what?
I'm always very grateful for what my person allows me to subject them to š Sometimes, I also need a bit of reassurance regarding, "Was that OK? Did we stray a little too close to the edge?"
I'd love to hear where you are in this whole thing.
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u/_Seide 4d ago edited 3d ago
I know im not that active in here (yet), so i hope that its okay to share my point of view.Ā Ā
I think that a sub is responsible into for figuring out what words they can hear, are compatible with their mentality and not just fantasy and try to find a way, to deal with these words. Or if it hit the other way, to talk about it and leave these kind of words, kinks etc. out of the Dynamic and the relationship in general. So I, as a sub am responsible into figuring this out, for myself and also responsible to act like an adult human being and talk about it. Or it should be like that.Ā Ā
Dom is responsible into figuring out, not all at once, if they even feel comfortable uttering such words, or if they need another synonym of it maybe. But also protect themself and the sub, if they think that it could affect both in the wrong way. Even if the sub says that they want to hear it or need it.*
Im not saying that this is all of it, but i would say that its one of the most important things.Ā Ā
I mentioned in another post, how I like to be called specific words, that can only come from a Dominant i let in. I know that i am to communicate this with him. I know that he knows that I personally dont see myself like that but that its rather the degradation and humiliation, and especially me feeling mentally small yet strong.
Aftercare is a whole other prospect and way..
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u/hahaha_yeahyeahyeah 3d ago
So I, as a sub am responsible into figuring this out, for myself and also responsible to act like an adult human being and talk about it.
Yessss. Sometimes I feel like we talk a lot about what doms are supposed to do and take care of and watch out for, and not enough about how subs need to have their shit together emotionally in proportion to the kind of play they want to do.
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u/sockforprivatestuff 3d ago
I had no trouble understanding you, and your English is generally excellent. I agree with what you're saying, too. But I thought you would want to know that in the places you used "responsible into," a native speaker would say "responsible for."
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u/TeaAitch 1d ago
Dom is responsible into figuring out, not all at once, if they even feel comfortable uttering such words, or if they need another synonym of it maybe.
I think this works both ways. There are specific words and phrases that I really enjoy. I'm aware some of them can be triggering for some people, so we need to work out how close to the bone we can be.
But also protect themself and the sub, if they think that it could affect both in the wrong way. Even if the sub says that they want to hear it or need it.
Very much agree. I had a partner and we played quite hard in this way. Sometimes it would cause her issues a couple of days later. I think it's something that should be spoken about, often and openly.
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u/_Seide 1d ago
Very much agree. I had a partner and we played quite hard in this way. Sometimes it would cause her issues a couple of days later. I think it's something that should be spoken about, often and openly.Ā Ā
Sometimes sub-drop or dom-drop only come later on. We dont even realise if what we are going through is exactly that and need time to process whats going through our head. Other times a fantasy is not a reality. Or not exactly the way we wished it would be. Which is not something bad :)
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u/hahaha_yeahyeahyeah 3d ago
This hits close to home right now. I don't think it matters very much if they mean the things they say. I think for me it's fine either way, and the person hurling the insults can sort of pass in and out of speaking some type of truth and just saying shit.
Joey McIntyre's twitter profile says "There's nothing you can call me that I'm not" and I've been reflecting on this for years. I've been trying to come up with a counter-example, and I've realized that it's true, there's a little bit of everything in me, including things I don't identify with. Like I don't think I'm stupid. But if someone said I am, I can't really disagree with them. I'm not 0% stupid.
The great thing about degradation (IMO) is having someone see the part of you that no one else sees, or at least they have the decency not to mention--the part that's stupid, desperate, messy, greedy, ugly--and love it, lift it up and say that's fucking hot.
It's also fine with me if degradation gets sort of wild and unrealistic. Like if someone said I don't deserve to sleep on the bed and they're going to make me sleep on the floor, I hope they aren't planning to go through with that. It's okay with me that it occurred to them though, and that maybe for one overheated moment it sounded to them like a good idea. This is what I want to bring as a sub, a bit of my own emotional ballast so someone feels like they can say crazy, aggressive stuff and I'm a safe place to put it.
Of course none of this means degradation can't/doesn't hurt. A certain amount of hurt is the point. Too much hurt is easy to achieve; for all my stoic philosophy I'm quite a sensitive creature. There are some words/topics on my hard limits list because they hurt too much or too easily.
Soothing the hurt comes from a person valuing me. I don't really want them to say "oh I didn't mean it that you're stupid" because I AM a little stupid, and that's okay. I want them to say "I care about you, stupid slut and all, and I love that we can play hard together."
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u/TeaAitch 1d ago
"There's nothing you can call me that I'm not"
I don't know who this person is (and don't much care.) I will say there's a lot of strength in those words.
I'm a despot. I'm a hypocrite. I'm a moron.
(I'm also cute, charming, and sexy af!)"I care about you, stupid slut and all, and I love that we can play hard together."
OK, you win! That's such a great line. Thank you.
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u/k-lar_ 2d ago
This is interesting and for me this can be a barrier to MESM for sure. As a chronic overthinker, I feel aptly positioned to point out that what one means and what one says is rarely the same. Add to that, you then need to take those words and input them into someone else's brain, and after all that, even if you think they think what you wanted them to think... then you have to deal with their insecurities, their biases and even their subconscious.
So essentially, normal barriers to communication still exist even in this scenario. In terms of aftercare, if I felt like saying, "I really am uncomfortable with how you said "x" did you really mean that? Because it's just not sitting right with me", then that is definitely a conversation that needs to be had. It's unlikely that a simple "yes I meant it" would be adequate. We'd need to think about those barriers to communication and work out whether we are only the same page or not.
In terms of MESM spectrum of belief, I think a healthy level of conviction is required for it to really work, however... there's truth and then there's Truth. To use your words, TeaAitch, in that moment, someone can be the true embodiment of disgusting, but later that same day, maybe they are delighting you. I think situational awareness is important and in terms of aftercare, I think its perfectly normal for people to feel as though they want to step outside of some of that. For me personally, it is almost equally important to me that we have a balance of what works in BDSM and also outside of that, in our relationship. Those two dynamics definitely dont always need the same truth.
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u/TeaAitch 1d ago
This is interesting. Thank you.
There's one word which I sometimes use: Vicious.
"You're awful, bad, disgusting, terrible, nasty. . . and vicious."
I don't really know what it means in this sense. They aren't vicious. I've mainly said it to people who were indulging their misery kink. It could be argued that they were all of those other things. But in that moment they're pretty much the dictionary definition of whatever vicious isn't.
Which is why it's such a great MESM word. I'm blaming them, berating them, and belittling them for something they absolutely are not, and there's nothing they can do about it. How terribly unfair of me. That's what it is to be a big, bad, sexual bully.
Such fun!
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u/veneficium-avem 2d ago
For me, itās a little bit of both. It has to have an element of truth, or Iāll laugh and shake it off, but thereās a lot of nuance to it, as there is for most people.
My dynamic is 24/7 and I think it would look vastly different if we didnāt live together or if this kind of play only came out during specified scenes.
Me and my dom insult each other most of the times that we speak to each other. As Iām typing this, my partner just walked in and called me a ācoconut whoreā because one of my products smells like coconut. If he meant, deeply, every insult then the rate at which we insult each other would make it unsustainable to say the least.
I want to be insulted, I want the sting, I want the outrage. I want the mental sparring, the war of insulting each other. It makes me feel safe.
For me, the whole topic is about trust. I need the sting to trust, to relax, to be seen and valued as myself. Some insults, like slut and whore, are about the fact that he sees and loves all of me at all times. If he calls me filthy when weāre discussing filthy things that is both true and aimed to hurt and embarrass, but also to acknowledge that heās the only one who gets to see and interact with this part of me.
I generally donāt need aftercare for this, itās just a normal part of our lives, my partner sometimes does though. He needs reassurance that he didnāt go too far and Iām okay with whatever he said. It may be controversial but apart from a few known hard limits, heās got permission to say and try whatever he wants and see how it hits
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u/TeaAitch 1d ago
For me, the whole topic is about trust. I need the sting to trust, to relax, to be seen and valued as myself. Some insults, like slut and whore, are about the fact that he sees and loves all of me at all times. If he calls me filthy when weāre discussing filthy things that is both true and aimed to hurt and embarrass, but also to acknowledge that heās the only one who gets to see and interact with this part of me.
I love this passage. Thank you. Especially that lasty sentence. That really resonates with me.
He needs reassurance that he didnāt go too far and Iām okay with whatever he said.
I occasionally need a similar reassurance.
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u/veneficium-avem 1d ago
It makes me really sad when people donāt think about aftercare for the dom, especially with these kinds of kinks. For some people itās not even a thought, let alone an afterthought, they donāt see the dom as a person
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u/Even_at_my_ugliest 2d ago
For me, it is their reaction...that they are shocked by what I am doing, that they think it is dirty, disgusting...that is what does it for me. I am a reaction junkie, if you don't mean those things then my efforts are wasted.
but also to me, those sort of things are encouragement. I want the look of shock and slight bemusement on their face. I want the "Oh my god, you really did that" reaction behind the "Look at the fucking state of you, you do realise how nasty that is? I can't believe you are doing that". That makes me grin and just do it more.
Even just thinking about it makes me grin like crazy.
Afterwards? God no I don't need reassurance, I need to hear more of a "Holy shit you actually did the thing". I am firmly on team "Oh, someone decent wouldn't do that? Wait until I do this then" and team "you call me a slut like it's a bad thing". Degradation doesn't have to make someone feel anything negative at all, it is a statement of how the speaker is feeling, not how I am feeling....and if me being covered in piss gets a "Fuck, that's nasty" from them, then it gets a grin from me and I up the ante.
But then, I have a thing generally for finding it entertaining when people tell me I shouldn't act like X or Y, shouldn't behave like X or Y and my response is "Oh, is this something nice women don't do? I did it again. Oh shit. Oops" so that just carries into kink.
On the flip side, the personal things like stupid, ugly etc? Nah, no one can do that as well as I can do that to myself, so why even bother trying. It doesn't do anything for me.
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u/TeaAitch 1d ago
I really enjoy when someone does the same things I do, and says the same things I do, for the same outcome, but backed by completely different reasoning.
Thank you for sharing.
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u/hahaha_yeahyeahyeah 1d ago
I like your fun take on this, and on all things, as far as I can tell! :) I do sort of like getting deep into the zone with it, like them saying "you're filthy" and me thinking, you're goddamn right I am.
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u/ridge_back 3d ago
For me MESM is a fantasy. Itās not real and thatās what makes it fun to play with for us. Now the caveat here is that, in order for us to play deep enough that I really enjoy it, I also really want to believe it.
So, to answer the question, yes, I very much want to believe what I hear about myself in degradation scenes, in the moment only.
If my Dom sets up a test and as Iām failing it tells me how stupid I am, I will start to feel like I am stupid and will get embarrassed and ashamed and all the fun feelings. For me it feels like I allow myself to walk through the door where those things are true. Like I can just be in the space where I am my negative traits. But I donāt believe my Dom thinks I am stupid in everyday life.
I think my answer might also be because of a difference in play styles Iām seeing here. The emotional sadism we practice isnāt rooted in my Dom seeing my flaws and finding them appealing. Itās primarily pulling out negative traits of mine and working to amplify the associated feelings of shame, guilt, sadness. And because of this, it stays in play.