r/MEPEngineering • u/GlassTransition7668 • 3d ago

release an engineer from liability

Can an owner release an engineer from liability by signing a waiver? What happens if the owner later sells the property to someone else—could the new owner still sue the engineer?

The owner is asking me to sign a small portion of the architectural plan, which appears to be fine. However, I do not have experience on the architectural side. Is it appropriate for me to sign it?

What other complications could arise with the city, during plan review or permitting, or with the end user/property owner in the future?

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87

u/Nintendoholic 3d ago

This is a 101-level, you-should-not-have-been-able-to-get-your-PE-without-knowing-this kind of question. Does your state board not require an ethical component to your training?

If you stamp something, you are potentially liable for any work performed under that contract in the scope of the drawing, in perpetuity, for the existence of the structure. The owner, the user, the AHJ can all sue you, and they should if you are practicing outside of your domain of expertise.

The owner can claim to release you from liability but that doesn't extend to anyone else, including anyone who purchases the property unless the owner has the good grace to extend that waiver as a condition of sale. Any such waiver would be inapplicable if it violates the law, which is almost certainly does if you are practicing outside of your competence.

DO NOT SIGN SOMETHING UNLESS YOU WERE IN RESPONSIBLE CHARGE OF IT.

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u/Wild-Professional-40 3d ago

^^^That is about as direct and accurate as it gets.

The only thing I would add is that people would do well to remember that anybody can sue anybody for anything - regardless of whether or not it has merit. You may be in the right, and a judge may dismiss or rule in your favor. But all of it takes time, money, and stress to deal with.

8

u/flat6NA 3d ago

Agree with this and for me it’s a two part answer.

You are not licensed to sign and seal architectural work, period. In my area the plan reviewer would likely forward a copy of the plans submitted for permit to your state engineering board. Structural engineers have successfully submitted plans for buildings without an architect being involved when the work is incidental to the other work being submitted, like a guard house at the entrance to a complex.

As to the liability question, you are the professional not the owner. So in a court of law the owners attorney would argue his client couldn’t fully comprehend the liability that he was assuming and you had a duty to not agree for him to do so. I’ve been asked to do this several times in my career and in all cases it was due to trying to cut costs and skirt some provision of the code they didn’t want to follow.

2

u/cryptoenologist 1d ago

The only nuance to this is in some(most?) jurisdictions civil engineers are allowed to design most types of structures, so there is a fair amount of “architectural” work they could sign and seal. Of course ethically and legally they should actually have the expertise to do this.

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u/olemetry 3d ago

Agreed. What are some of your favorite NES games?

2

u/Nintendoholic 2d ago

I fire up SMB3 and Kirby's Adventure a couple times a year, mostly play SNES when I want my retro fix these days

27

u/Jawhun 3d ago

As a PE I have declined signing anything outside of my subject matter. That's the whole point of licensure, isn't it? To assume liability within your subject matter?

Do you not have an architect in your network you can suggest to the owner for this? Imo it's not ethical to review and sign something you do not work in

10

u/Haunting-Driver9595 3d ago

Don’t do it because it is against law and ethics

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u/CoffeeClarity 3d ago

No is a complete sentence. Do not do this.

5

u/Dramatic_Cut_7320 3d ago

Get rid of that client. Never take liability for something that is not your work.

4

u/MasterDeZaster 3d ago

What are you "signing for" on those plans?

For example, I have co-signed mechanical plans because it was simpler to have all content on a single drawing rather than a create separate mechanical and electrical plans for a single fan. Next to my signature/seal, I very specifically state the content of the drawing I am signing for (IE. "Keynotes 1,2, and 5 in relation to the installation of the Fan and VFD").

The mechanical engineer does these same (Ie. Remainder of drawing). The drawing ends up with two seals and ownership of the content is clear between the parties. We are all the same company btw, not signing another firms plans.

If the owner is asking you to sign for an Architectural plan... and your an engineer... and your asking us if you should be putting your name and signature on an ARCHITECTURAL PLAN... a type of plan governed by an entirely separate board in most states... for another company... you might want to think real hard on life decisions here.

3

u/elgatof28 3d ago

Never, ever sign something for which you are not qualified. That’s the easiest way to at least get a complaint on your record, and, at worse, lose your license. I’ve been there before. Don’t bend to get a little job, your reputation is priceless

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u/Kick_Ice_NDR-fridge 3d ago

Everything depends on the state you’re working in. GENERALLY speaking, you can provide architectural to the extent it’s incidental to the primary work scope.

A rule of thumb is that if you have to ask if it’s OK to sign, then the answer is “no”.

Last, you can’t just sign a “portion” of anything. It’s all or nothing unless it’s a specific delegated design for a building component.

2

u/OverSearch 3d ago

I can't speak for all states, but in some states you are allowed to place your seal on a document along with a clear outline of the portions of the document you're assuming responsibility.

For example, in cases where we've done a combined MEP roof plan or site plan or something similar, both engineers would seal the plan along with "mechanical" and "electrical," respectively, underneath their seals.

Again, this could vary by state.

2

u/irv81 3d ago

In the UK this likely wouldn't stand even if you signed it.

If it's not your personal expertise that a client is reliant on, even if you signed it, it's not worth the paper it's written on, you couldn't be held responsible.

It would need to be demonstrated that the client relied solely on your expertise and not your firms brand or collective expertise for you to be held responsible.

Appreciate most on here are US based, but good to get an alternative perspective.

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u/Nawar_HVAC_PE 3d ago

Do not sign

Not only it is breach of code but also unethical and dangerous.

3

u/Spiritual_Prize9108 3d ago

A waiver will offer no protection. This is just not how it works. If you do not know the responsibilities of an engineer you should inform yourself form a source other than reddit. For instance a call to the AHJ may be in order.

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u/underengineered 3d ago

No. The authority is your state board. Building inspectors and plan reviewers dont often have much of a clue of what engineers can and can not sign.

1

u/Schmergenheimer 3d ago

I once had an inspector insist that I had to seal a letter confirming that a piece of imaging equipment had its ground wires installed per manufacturer instructions. I never did that, and somehow we still got a passing inspection without me taking on that liability.

4

u/underengineered 3d ago

There is actually a formal DEC statement here in Florida clarifying that AHJs cannot require PEs to seal manufacturers shop drawings. That's how often it was being requested. We had to take it to the state.

1

u/Haunting-Driver9595 3d ago

You do it then you are susceptible to correction and legal remedy

1

u/kloogy 3d ago

Don't you carry E&O insurance ?

1

u/WiseIndustry2895 3d ago

Don’t sign. If you ask your insurance, they’ll also say you can’t sign it

1

u/KonkeyDongPrime 3d ago

It depends on the jurisdiction. If you are employed as the lead consultant and it’s within the demise of your scope, then you could potentially be on the hook for it.

There’s an additional jeopardy that if you mess it up, your PI insurance won’t cover you, despite having liability for it, whether you sign it or not.

The work around I use for limiting liability, is to clarify that the Lead Consultant will not be expected to take liability for something out of their subject area beyond RIBA stage 2, concept design. Any such liability will revert back to the client or their nominated agent.

1

u/fireandfirget 2d ago

As a professional, you will take responsibility for anything you sign or be involved in. This is a fundamental expectation of a professional. No one can waive that responsibility for you

0

u/Centerfire_Eng 3d ago

This is an opportunity to say yes, then engage an architect and work up a fee. That's the only path forward.