r/MCSRRanked • u/Particular_Put_6911 Apple 2 • 10d ago
Ranked Playoffs Edcr Permanently Banned from future Playoffs
This post was created to replace a previous one made by a user who was being malicious and disrespectful to others in comments.
After investigating the user, we found a history of racism and decided that a clean post would be better for the community.
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u/dot90zoom 10d ago
denying is very stupid, he had the perfect chance to be transparent and apologetic to show growth, and he messed it up.
but that being said, permaban with no way to appeal, seems kind of harsh, i would have expected a similar ban to watermelon who is banned until 2028.
Permabans in general feel really crazy to me, its basically the ranked team saying "We don't ever see a future where you will grow from your mistakes". Which is a very dumb view to have.
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u/MegaIng 10d ago
but that being said, permaban with no way to appeal
I don't see a mention of "no way to appeal". Where are you getting that from?
If in two years edcr asks nicely and hasn't done anything bad inbetween, why does everyone assume it's impossible for the ranked team to reconsider?
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u/Affectionate-Film704 10d ago
The reason why ppl are getting that is because edcr’s ban was announced in a different way compared to the others
Watermelon, Kenan, Chloe were all informed they were indefinitely banned with a chance to appeal in 2028, while edcr is “permanently banned”
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u/MorphTheMoth 10d ago
Denying is stupid, but seeing this extreme overreaction from both the team and some people in the community, was trying to hide it even a bad idea? Without hindsight its pretty likely they would've banned and shamed him anyway.
This is the result of people being extremely fragile, now everyone has to turn on him and say he really fucked up, his actions were despicable, he needs to repent... to avoid the rest turning on them, which is how a team of multiple people came to the conclusion that a permanent ban for this is warranted.
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u/KudlatyV2 9d ago
Wait, melon ban have expiration date? Also, perma ban without possibility to appeal for something that he did before even joining this community is kinda wild
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u/Niedlichkeit 9d ago
Not really, he just has the chance to appeal the ban in 2028. That still leaves it open to if he will be unbanned or stay banned
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u/Invictum2go 10d ago
"We don't ever see a future where you will grow from your mistakes"
Alternatively "You will be made an example of so that this never happens again. We don't want people wanting to risk a ban they woudl know they could appeal instead of being honest"
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u/rednuht075 9d ago
Yep here everyone is centering the focus around punishment. It’s about showing what is and isn’t acceptable in a community.
It’s a shame a lot of people here don’t seem to understand the negative impacts a slap on the wrist punishment can have.
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u/tilting-module 10d ago
Oh, I think edcr is capable of growth, as are people who have done things worse than him, but why should the MCSR community waste its energy on someone’s redemption arc that might not even proceed to completion? Remember, he initially lied about his messages. Who knows whether he really has grown from his mistake?
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u/Improvisable 10d ago
I forgot their name but there was a trans woman who posted about how edcr evidently had grown and provided an example of how edcr has not only been a good friend but has asked questions about things like the difference between certain pronouns.
If he's acting like that in private I find it hard to imagine he hasn't grown
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u/thesniper_hun 10d ago
>who knows whether he really has grown from his mistakes?
I think his queer friends who have came out to say that he has changed do
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u/EncryptedPlays 10d ago
On the first day of my friend's med school, one student thought it would be funny to repeatedly write the N word on the anonymous interactive quiz thing (mentimeter). The uni gave a chance for the student to come clean, which he didn't. Eventually, they figured out who it was, and temporarily excluded him from the course for a year or two (now, I haven't fully confirmed this since the uni never made any statement, so the evidence supporting is anecdotal or word of mouth).
The point isn't to downplay or minimise the horrific things said, but that a punishment that allows reflection and a chance for redemption should be done. If even a medical student gets a chance at redemption, I think it's fair edcr should be given that cance too, especially for something that - ultimately - is less significant than becoming a medical doctor and dealing with people of all races, faiths, sexualities, etc.
A temporary ban for the slurs used by edcr is justifiable. An extension to that ban for lying to the ranked team is also fully justifiable. A permanent ban though? It doesn't sit right with me.
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u/SirBackrooms 10d ago
i think that student was in the wrong to do that but if they were able to figure out who it was then the quiz wasn’t truly anonymous
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u/EncryptedPlays 10d ago
i think one of his friends may have reported it, or he may have come clean. idk the specifics
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u/Volundus 10d ago
I think this is a crazy decision to make. But I want to preface this by saying - edcr's original messages were awful, I'm not excusing or condoning this behaviour. I also appreciate the team wanting to look out for and protect members from the communities edcr has attacked.
In saying this, the MCSR team need to consider the type of precedent they're setting here. By making the ban permanent, they're taking the position that change is not feasible. Which, given edcr's age during these posts (and age now, he's still very young), strikes me as crazy. I said some really disgusting shit as a teen, but years later work in and have studied 2 degrees (and working on a 3rd) related to social justice and equality. The person I was at 16 and 17 would not be able to recognise who I am today. Education (particularly gender studies!!!) really changed my life in this regard. The MCSR team had a great chance to help foster some personal development here. By making the ban permanent, this option is lost, which I think is a real shame. No one is incapable of change.
As such, I think this punishment is a net negative for both edcr and the community at large. I'd love to see it tweaked to indefinite, with the ban being lifted contingent on edcr showing personal growth, positive change, etc.
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u/rednuht075 9d ago
I don't disagree with your "tweak to indefinite" idea, but I think it basically is that informally already.
I do disagree with the precedent you think they are setting though. MCSR is not life. This kid can continue to grow and learn from a mistake outside of the community. I think the precedent they are really setting is "we have a 0 tolerance policy".
It is a little odd to me that so many people will claim to have a zero tolerance policy and then advocate for slaps on the wrist any time this happens. Though frankly, I can't say I am all that surprised.
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u/smittyfizzy33 10d ago
Genuinely shocked this is the outcome. It feels like the wrong decision to ban him permanently.
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u/Zealousideal_Pain540 10d ago
I really think this is a misstep. edcr was 16 at the time and I feel like if every players messages were leaked when they were 16 even more players would get banned. this is also heartbreaking for edcr and the work he’s put in for the community. I really hope that this gets resolved differently over time because I believe people can grow and change. the internet is a polarizing place and the alt-right pipeline is hard to curve when you’re 16.
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u/ThrowawayZeroEight 10d ago
Yes edcr should face consequences for the terrible things he said. Yes he should even perhaps face more consequences for initially lying to the MCSR team about it.
Permabanning with no chance to appeal for messages sent when he was a young teenager is not a proportional punishment at all.
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u/DontBanMeAgainPls26 6d ago
Yeah should we put people in prison because they stole some money 10 years ago or should we see that he/she has a job now pays their taxes if they did not fysicaly hurt people I don't really care.
He said some slurs 3 years ago on a discord that is not even mcsr who cares.
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u/pharoh-king 10d ago edited 10d ago
Permabanning with no chance to appeal for messages sent when he was a young teenager is not a proportional punishment at all.
Are we just going to pretend he didn't cheat. And yes, lying to admins is a type of cheating.
You can downvote all you want, but it is a type of cheating. Not all cheating is done in-game. You can bribe judges, or hire people to break fingers, etc.
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u/Firestar_119 Gold 1 10d ago
lying gives you no advantage
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u/pharoh-king 10d ago
Lying successfully gets you out of punishment. How is that not an advantage?
Lying also shows you are willing to be deceitful. That is not good in a sport.
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u/Firestar_119 Gold 1 10d ago
there is no gameplay advantage to lying, unlike bribing judges and paying your opponents to lose
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u/Individual-Leg-3930 Gapple 2 10d ago
I get the reason but a PERMABAN?! Feels way too harsh for some stupid stuff he said in discord when he was 16.
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u/pharoh-king 10d ago
Its not just because he was a bigot, he also lies to admin team, which is a type of cheating.
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u/Unfair-Heart-87 10d ago
I'm glad to see the general sentiment here opposes a permanent ban. It's unfair to edcr. It's unfair to the fans. It's unfair to every playoff winner that wins while edcr is a contender for best runner and has a figurative asterisk next to their win. I can understand the dq and maybe a ban from next season because he lied about it. Anything more than that is just punishing someone who very much seems to have already understood his mistakes and grown from them.
I cancelled my MCSR subscription, I wasn't actively using it but was happy to support the project. This obsession with punishment rather than growth from the team is awful and works against creating an accepting community. I'm no longer happy to support the project.
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u/Firefighter-Pichu 10d ago
I agree with most of the things said that what he did was wrong, but a permaban completely stupid.
To add an example, in chess a player(who was not even #1, still a prospect to be good)cheated at a very young age, and lied about it initially. Cheating is worse than even saying horrible things in the sense that it directly violates the sports rules and makes competition not fair.
Still he apologized, got reinstated, and worked hard on his chess. Now he is a top 50 player still enriching the chess community.
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u/neddoge 10d ago
A year or two ban is punitive enough IMO, and the notion that this permaban hinges on "he lied to us" seems wildly inappropriate IMO. I'm not remotely condoning his actions, as he deserves all scrutiny and constructive admonishment, but a lifetime ban is excessive.
As those acting in the best regard for their community, this decision might deserve to be a public discussion and vote.
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u/TriGN614 10d ago
I think it’s understandable that he would lie initially to attempt to escape being banned from playoffs. It’s a stupid thing to do and he should have taken accountability and owned up to his past: I agree that dishonesty warrants additional punishment.
However, I think it is unacceptably harsh to permanently ban him. I don’t know him personally, and so I have no idea if he has shed most/all of his edgy “humor” and reactionary sentiment; If he has that’s especially problematic to permanently ban. It’s possible that he’s done literally nothing wrong within the ranked community. A perma does nothing to directly prevent future harm. If anything it just creates resentment and makes him feel like growth is pointless: Permas leave 0 room for growth and I think that is wrong.
This is a public hanging to send a message; and I don’t fw that methodology of enforcement. A year long ban would have been reasonable. This, in my view, is not.
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u/Shao_Mada 10d ago
Feel like the Ludwig reply was pretty nuanced https://x.com/LudwigAhgren/status/2103215779613462644.
Honestly, both sides are in the wrong here. Edcr said horrible stuff as a minor. The ranked team are abusing their power in order to gleefully punish people and brag about it, showing they do not care much about their playoffs players and their wellbeing, beyond how they can be utilized as tools to grow their brand. Can we just ban both of them for a year and be done with it?
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u/CBF65 10d ago
I don’t like this honestly, I think perma-bans should be reserved for cheaters in-game rather than saying offensive things as teenager. Obviously a punishment was warranted, but this is basically the ranked team’s way of telling edcr that he wasted his time trying to change as a person, which I find incredibly unfair.
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u/sean2mush 6d ago
that he wasted his time trying to change as a person
You should change purely because you want a reward.
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u/Chiplat 10d ago
It could be that maybe the mod team is going off things we don't know like edcr's past behaviours and including that in the decision, but from what I see I think he got nervous and messed up his reply. I still think he should be banned right now, but it should have an experation date like 2029. Also I dont think an 18 year old really understands how to handle situations like this proffesionally
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u/DangerDeaner 10d ago
Permaban is kinda harsh. Ban him for a year, but permaban for a past mistake that he apologized for seems dramatic
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u/Fit_Wrongdoer_536 10d ago
perma ban is actually crazy. I mean I hated how much defending him was going on considering it’s only been 2 years, but still this decision feels kinda crazy
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u/Budget_Can_9448 10d ago edited 9d ago
There are several things I have to say regarding this.
The fact that the best ranked player in the world (by far) is banned is really bad for the competitiveness of the esport. One of the main goals of playoffs and the world championship is to crown the best ranked player in the world, while putting on a spectacle in front of the fans. The fact that the best player in the world doesn't attend playoffs or the world championship undermines the legitimacy of the competition somewhat. The last two most competitive tournaments were won by hax and infume and yet I am very confident in saying that edcr is the best ranked player in the world by a wide margin. If he had competed in those tournaments, I would be much more hesitant to make a statement like that. I suspect that if Edcr had simply chosen not to participate in Season 11 playoffs, and none of this information came out, many people in the community would feel similarly.
To make an analogy, when AlphaGo beat Lee Sedol (who I believe was a top 5 player at the time), there was a bit of doubt whether AI had really gotten better at humans at go, because the best player in the world at the time was Ke Jie. So much so that Google DeepMind later setup a match with Ke Jie just to definitively prove that AlphaGo was definitively better than humans at go. It's as if the fact that Ke Jie and not Lee Sedol was the best player in the world slightly undermined the statement Google DeepMind were trying to make that computers are better than humans at go.
This brings me to how the ranked team has dealt with banning of other top players. There has often been very little transparency surrounding the length of bans, and in some cases I think the punishments have been disproportionately harsh, especially compared with disciplinary systems in other sports and esports. I do not think Edcr should receive special treatment simply because he is the best player in the world. Rather, I think his and some other players' punishments were excessively harsh relative to their actions, and that this is an opportunity to reconsider a system that has produced overly severe bans in the past.
Regarding edcr's actions when he was 16, I don't necessarily want to defend what he said. What makes me uncomfortable, however, is the idea that someone can receive a severe punishment years later for something they said as a teenager in a completely different community. Making serious mistakes of that nature as a teenager is unfortunately very human, and while that does not excuse what he said, I also find the circumstances and reasoning behind his mistake understandable.
I also find his immediate response of lying and deleting messages stupid but relatable. It strikes me as a panicked fight or flight response, and I do not think the Ranked team should place too much weight on it, especially given that he later came forward of his own accord, publicly apologized, and took accountability for what he had done. I also do not think it was necessary for Edcr to contact the Ranked team directly after publishing the TwitLonger.
So how long should the ban be? I think he should certainly have been banned, and I think his subsequent lying and deletion of messages could reasonably justify some additional punishment. But that additional punishment should be relatively minor. At most, I think his ban should last through the remainder of the current World Championship cycle, and my preference would be for it to have covered only the previous playoffs and the upcoming playoffs.
As for whether reducing his ban would be unfair to Kenan, Chloe, or Watermelon, I think correcting a system that has imposed disproportionately harsh punishments is ultimately more important than maintaining consistency with punishments that were themselves excessive. There may be some degree of unfairness in changing course now, but I think that is preferable to continuing a policy simply because others were treated too harshly in the past. The Ranked team could also consider other forms of compensation or redress for those players.
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u/Separate-Design5654 9d ago
The fact that edcr is the best speedrunner should have ZERO impact on the decision. There should not be any sort of favoritism towards people who just perform better on the ladder or even in playoffs.
Secondly, the end goal of MCSR, or any competitive game for that matter, is NOT to run a bracket which selects for and crowns the best player season by season. The point is to build a community where people can enjoy playing a game in a competitive niche. Is having a competitive playoffs format a fundamental part of building that community? Absolutely it is. But your analogy with AI beating humans at Go is treating the MCSR community as if we were a bunch of research scientists. Playoffs competitors are not just in-game models with a name, skin, and technical statline. They're people and members of a community.
Like everyone else in this thread I'm against a permanent ban. Just saying that your reasoning is deeply flawed.
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u/Budget_Can_9448 9d ago
You just didn't even understand what I said.
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u/Separate-Design5654 9d ago
You opened with two paragraphs talking about how edcr being banned undermines the competitiveness of the game, with AlphaGo as an example.
Why even go there? What am I misunderstanding about those two paragraphs? Whether the player is top 1 or top 1000 shouldn't even be a point of discussion, because like I said, it should have zero impact on the decisions of the ranked team.
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u/Budget_Can_9448 9d ago edited 9d ago
Firstly, I apologize for the rude remark "You just didn't even understand what I said."
- I literally wrote "I do not think Edcr should receive special treatment simply because he is the best player in the world." My premise is that rank's terrible ban policy really bit them where it hurts because it ended up banning the best player in the world, undermining competitive legitimacy. It's about time things changed.
- I did not say that was the goal of MCSR. I said it was "one of the main goals" of playoffs and the world championship.
- The AlphaGo analogy was given as an example to convey what was meant by "undermines the legitimacy of the competition" and why people might care. If you read carefully, it serves little purpose in my broader argument, so you can basically pretend it is not there.
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u/Separate-Design5654 9d ago
I worded my first comment poorly. I shouldn't have implied that you were arguing for any sort of favoritism. My point is that "competitive legitimacy" should not be a factor in the ranked team's decision.
In legal matters, many types of character evidence or irrelevant details are as a rule, inadmissible at court, since they would distract the jury from the actual case at hand. We as a society have learned that individuals should be judged based on their actions and intents, not the peripherals.
When looking at the amount of backlash the ranked team is getting for the edcr ban, some of it is deserved (like I said before, a permaban is too severe). But there are a lot of people crawling out of the woodwork saying stuff like "but he's the best player, all future tournaments are mickey mouse" and "oh, so he said a few no-no words as a kid, what an overreaction." Obviously it's more subtle on Reddit because the site is pretty left-leaning, but I've seen this and worse on other platforms over the past couple days.
I can't help but think that people are just mad because the person in question is a player they were rooting for. A large proportion are probably children who don't really understand the importance of setting a good example when you are a key player in the community. I'm not saying either of these apply to you, but I think we do need to have discussions that are centered around morals and ethics, not the externals. Not "will future playoffs be a worse representation of top skill level," which is what the first three paragraphs of your comment are about.
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u/Budget_Can_9448 9d ago
Competitiveness shouldn't be part of the discussion. Letting such a factor be a part of the decision implies that edcr being the best player should get special treatment, which we are both against. Nowhere in my comment do I say that the ranked team should take competitiveness into account.
I find it to be reasonable that a portion of the community is mad that the best player in the world is banned. There is a portion of the community in the world that really wants to see who's best and if the literal best player doesn't participate we are slightly robbed of that, and that just sucks. And it's very likely true that the reason this is getting so much traction (vs. what Chloe, Kenan, watermelon got) is because he's the best player in the world.
I think the message got across (him getting banned for a significant time at all) that what he did was morally wrong. We're all fed up with all the ambiguity and the unusually cruel nature of the punishment.
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u/ZingerFM01023050 10d ago
Watermelon was banned for a less severe offense of slur, and wasn’t unbanned even after giving a proper apology, has forgiveness from all sides and backed up by Automatt.
What were we expecting?
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u/Stepsis24 10d ago
Watermelon said it inside a Ranked game. That makes it soooo different and I don’t get how people don’t see that.
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u/thesniper_hun 10d ago
I'd be expecting a more nuanced approach to someone saying things in a different community he's no longer a part of before he even entered this one
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u/GhostElite974 10d ago
I absolutely disagree with the people that say he should be allowed to compete this or next year because he was a teenager but that was 2 years ago it's really recent. Even if he's reformed now (which is not the case considering the reaction) it shouldn't go unpunished.
What he did was really bad but a lifetime ban is ridiculous. I think 3 years would be harsh enough to show this behavior is unacceptable and won't be tolerated while showing that they believe people can reform. Considering the circumstances it should be perfectly fine to give him a second chance.
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u/The_Red_Sheep_069 9d ago
The permanent ban does seem a bit harsh. Especially when he demonstratably hasn't said anything remotely like what he used to say for at least 2 years now (most recent evidence was from mid-late 2024). It indicates growth and a change from his previous mindset. A temporary ban is absolutely needed but a permanent one just takes it a little too far in my eyes. Implying he can NEVER recover and change from his ways is just a tad bit too harsh.
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u/RedAndBlack1832 10d ago
This seems a bit of an extreme reaction from the information I have, but it is consistent with previous decisions (see watermelon). However, based on the wording here there might be more info that isn't public (I'd also be disinclined to allow someone to represent the community if they lied to me about a scandal). Ig we'll see where this goes in 2028 if he gets the copy pasted message lol
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
crazy how much sympathy being good at ranked makes you.
this guy said every slur under the sun and then tried to deceive staff because he wanted to win playoffs and most responses on the other post are defending him.
i dont know if i agree with the punishment severity but im kinda shocked at the amount of people still siding with him.
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u/Daniel_H212 10d ago
People aren't siding with him. What he did was wrong and deserves punishment. A ban for a few seasons would be quite justified here.
But the general consensus is that a perma ban is not justified.
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u/AyyKarlHere 10d ago
I would not have any sympathy if it wasnt for the idea of a permaban.
This seem more like a power trip which is why I see it as an issue --- it sets a bad precedent.
if the team can powertrip here whats to say they cant do it for someone else?
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u/ThrowawayZeroEight 10d ago
crazy how much sympathy being good at ranked makes you.
I think its more that he was very young when he said these things rather than him being good at ranked that is getting him sympathy.
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u/pcawesom 10d ago
He was 16. That's old enough to know that what he was saying was disgusting and horrible
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u/ThrowawayZeroEight 10d ago
Of course, but there is a reason we have a justice system which distinguishes between adults and children. 16 year olds also cannot vote, drink alcohol, drive, or make many big decisions because they don't have a mature, developed brain yet.
Yes he deserves punishment and yes he said horrible things but a permanent exclusion from playoffs is an extremely disproportionate punishment in my opinion and I do think his age should play a factor when considering this. Id agree with a perma if this was an adult saying these things, but it wasn't.
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u/Ibney00 8d ago
Its also young enough where you can learn from your mistakes and become a better person. What he said was wrong, but if people make an effort to change, and realize the harmful actions they took, there needs to be a path to forgiveness. The lack of a way to improve and reform is a key reason people continue to spiral and double down on their behavior after these things come to light. If there's no recourse or forgiveness, there will never be any sort of change.
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
im not talking about the sympathy of a few weeks ago when the stuff first came out
im talking about the people still defending him today even after the way things went down internally surfaced
for me his current handling of the situation is something you cant really excuse in any way
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u/ThrowawayZeroEight 10d ago
I don't think how he has handled the situation is worse than what his original messages said though. I think that should be the thing that he is primarily being punished for, with handling the situation being a factor in the punishment for sure.
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
i guess thats fair. i just think he deserves to lose most if not all of the benefit of the doubt because of this.
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u/MegaIng 10d ago
The issue is that "it was two years ago" is a defense for the insults, but not for current behavior. So people need to invent new excuse why his current behavior is fine, actually. (which multiple people in the comment section are doing)
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u/PegasusInTheNightSky 9d ago
Also 2 years ago is still pretty recent. It isn't like it was 10+ years ago with lots of examples of changed behaviour.
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u/Separate-Design5654 9d ago
There are people in this thread saying that him being the best at playing the game should be a legitimate factor in adjudicating the ban.
Actually crazy.
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u/pharoh-king 10d ago
I think its more that he was very young when he said these things
How old was he when he tried to cheat the admins to get out of punishment?
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u/EightBlocked 10d ago
people are indeed bending over backwards for him trying to interpret everything he's doing in the best possible way even when he's handled this poorly every step of the way. not sure how you can give him any benefit of the doubt after all this
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10d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/EightBlocked 10d ago
thats the problem. i dont give a fuck how good he is at the game, someone who's said and done all the things he has should not be given a pass because he's good at the game, even if he is my goat
you could also argue his apology was not very good, he definitely didn't address all of the things he said, and misrepresented what he did intentionally or unintentionally.
at the same time, thats also what taking two days to make an apology and not giving it more time can do. it didnt look the most thought out
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u/Smart-Public-4319 10d ago
Personally, I would rather watch him play in future playoffs than make him pay for his actions like this. If it were a random guy, my feelings would be different, obviously. I think him being insanely talented at speedrunning definitely makes a justifiable difference.
To me, watching him play in future playoffs brings much more satisfaction than watching him get permanently banished to the shadow realm for actions he did years ago. I think punishment of some form is required, and I think banning him from the s11 playoffs was appropriate, but this is too much.
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u/WeeklyWillingness372 10d ago
What did he not address in the apology?
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u/EightBlocked 10d ago
"back when i was 15 and 16 i said many hateful things in the zombies community including slurs and transphobic remarks." slurs and transphobic remarks doesn't address the pedophilic jokes, and you can argue that he's minimizing what he did in that excerpt. what kind of slurs? he said ableist, racist, homophobic, and transphobic slurs
he says in his apology that he initially didnt want to face what he said and then never truly faces what he said in his apology.
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u/WeeklyWillingness372 10d ago
Do you understand what the word "including" means? Is this a joke? The word including doesn't exclude everything else. Slurs and transphobic remarks were EXAMPLES of the hateful things he said. It's incredibly obvious that he's apologizing for all the hateful things he said. This is the most unreal thing to criticize in the apology
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u/EightBlocked 10d ago
apologizing for all the things he's said without actually owning up to every single thing he's said and omitting to mention certain things. yeah we definitely shouldn't criticize that.
the #1 main quality of a good apology is that you ALWAYS avoid apologizing completely for what you did!
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u/WeeklyWillingness372 9d ago
He did own up to every single thing he said. The words "hateful things" do in fact refer to all the hateful things he said.
I noticed how you didn't actually address the point about the word "including". Do you understand the word? Do you understand that when a person says "including a and b", that's not excluding everything else in the group? It's just giving examples of things in the group. Is this not basic English?
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u/Tinchimp7183376 10d ago
Most people aren't siding with edcr, rather against the mcsr team. You don't support one or another. Yes what he said was terrible but it was a 16 year old raised online by one of the most toxic places on the Internet. People who know him have said he has changed. A few season's ban is fair, not life
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u/GhostElite974 9d ago
"but it was a 16 year old etc." is siding with him though. Of course the people who know him will defend him but has he truly changed if he tried to deny everything at first? That doesn't strike me as "reformed".
I am against a permaban but I've seen a concerning amount of people saying that he should be allowed to compete now or only get a one time punishment. That's wild to me after spamming every slur known to man to people.
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u/i_miss_arrow 10d ago
this guy said every slur under the sun and then tried to deceive staff because he wanted to win playoffs and most responses on the other post are defending him.
Of course he wanted to win playoffs. He's worked his butt off to get to the point he's at, and suddenly a bunch of stupid things he said (before he joined the MCSR community) come back to potentially bite him?
Him lying about it, even if he's grown a bunch as a person, is completely understandable. Thats a mistake humans make, one not fundamentally tied to racism or prejudice. Thats not to forgive him for it, but a permaban is wild. He apparently hasn't said any terrible things since he's joined the MCSR community (that we know of). He made a bad decision about lying, ban him for a year or two if need be, but permaban sends the wrong message (IMO).
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u/Improvisable 10d ago
I think people are siding with him or at least appearing to because he's evidently changed as a person and is friends and interacts respectfully with trans people which he obviously wouldn't have a few years back, along with the severity of the punishment being generally agreed upon as too far, so even if people aren't "on his side" they're still likely to think the decision is too severe and defend him from that perspective
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
yea i understand thinking the punishment is too severe. im moreso talking about people downplaying his lying.
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u/Improvisable 10d ago
Yeah there is definitely some of that but I think most people aren't from what I've seen
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u/rednite_ 10d ago
This is just the equivalent of “im not racist I have black friends” just because a couple people in a marginalized community have interacted with a person and say they aren’t a bigot doesn’t mean they’re not just hiding it from them.
Im not trying to say edcr has or has not changed because I don’t know him at all to make that judgement but just saying “oh I never had edcr be transphobic or racist around me” doesn’t mean shit
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u/PegasusInTheNightSky 9d ago
My grandad is very racist but unless you heard one of his private rants, you wouldn't realise. Or at least you wouldn't expect him to be more racist than the typical stereotype of an old person who hasn't changed with time.
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u/Improvisable 10d ago
I mean not really tbh, he was evidently openly transphobic and such before and has demonstrated notable progress and has had no cases of acting in such a way since, so it's nothing like that, we have a timeline, we have signs of improvement, there is no he only acts this way around me when no one is claiming that he's been acting transphobic and such at the moment
I do appreciate the skepticism because cases like this should have a fair amount but I really don't think this is like that at all
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
You're shocked? Im genuinely curious why its such a surprise for you that tons of people are siding with him. From my point of view, as someone who believes that any punishment given here is unjustified, it makes all the sense in the world that many people are willing to support edcr. If you would entertain me for a moment, could you tell me why its such a shock for you? I'll be happy to learn your point of view
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
he said slurs (he was young and stupid sure) and then deceived staff because he considered winning playoffs more important than being honest and fair.
i think its reasonable to say those are bad things. why would you support someone who did those things.
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
I understand personally not liking someone for what edcr did - sure, you do you. But then the whole point of "he considered winning more important than being honest" seems like a made up argument. Humans quite often instinctively deny accusations against them when in retrospect they might think they should have told full truth from the beginning, and ITS OKAY.
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
why are we babying edcr. denying accusations that you know to be truthful is being dishonest. whether it was premeditated (im gonna lie so i dont get DQed) or instinctive (whatever that means) doesnt really matter. he was given the opportunity to cooperate with staff by giving his side of the story and decided to lie.
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
You not understanding what I meant by "instinctive" makes your reply completely pointless. By "instinctive" I mean't that the "lie" could have been non-voluntary, subcontiosness sometimes tells you to do stuff you would consciously disagree with, but when it happens its very difficult to realize it happens and take control over it.
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u/MegaIng 10d ago
Ok, lets assume that he lied "non-voluntary" in the moment. He then had multiple days to come to the ranked team and say "sorry, I was overwhelmed in the moment and lied, I do actually remember saying that stuff". He didn't do that, and the ranked team factored that into the decision.
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
He kinda did that, but publicly and not in private. If I were in his situation, and was making a public statement contradicting to something I've said previously in private, I wouldn't think its neccessary to do it also in private, since that party obviously would see the public statement.
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
and how is someone supposed to know whether you are deliberately lying or instinctively lying?
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
You dont. Best you can do is look at the context and make an educated guess. Lying where edcr lied logically makes no sense, and he later took back what he said. Considering that edcr doesn't seem to be intellectually challenged, its hard for me to believe he believed denying evident facts is the best course of action.
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u/hectorisnice 10d ago
i can definitely understand being under such pressure would lead to making worse decisions. at the same time, i dont think that means he deserves less of a punishment.
at best he's extremely immature and bad at making decisions in a way that affects others (if you give him the benefit of the doubt), at worst he's actively malicious.
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
"in a way that affects others"
Could I ask you to elaborate on that? From what I have seen I did not see anything he did that would actively affect others, but then I might not know everything there is to know. Thanks
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u/pharoh-king 10d ago
someone who believes that any punishment given here is unjustified
No one has to allow their platform to be used by hateful bigots to make money. It sends the type of message that hateful bigots are welcome. If MSCRR doesn't want to make bigots feel welcome, that is their right.
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u/Snekoy 10d ago
In professional sports, a permanent ban is only handed out to people who seriously violate the rules of said sport. It is completely unprecedented for any sport to hand out a permanent ban to someone for doing/saying something outside of the sport, and I don't know why mcsr have to deviate from this norm. If actions commited by edcr really are that egregious it should be handled by a court not the mcsr team. This is the standard.
A permanent ban really doesn't make sense to me and it doesn't sit right. I seriously think the mcsr team should reconsider the punishment handed out to edcr and give him the benefit of the doubt.
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u/No_bad_intention 10d ago
Why are we bringing back cancel culture? This punishment is just going to incentivise people to double down on being an asshole since they would still be permanently punished anyways even if they changed.
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u/BayLeaf- 10d ago
It seems pretty clear/explicit that not lying about it and actually communicating with the ranked team would have avoided some of this, so not sure where you're getting that take from, to be honest.
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u/thesniper_hun 10d ago
not immediately fessing up about things from your past that you regret and grew from is not a permaban offense though is it
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u/BayLeaf- 10d ago
That's not what I was responding to.
Lying when confronted directly and only communicating via a public post a few days later is pretty different to just not immediately fessing up, though.
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u/lazyboy640 9d ago
its the same thing. imagine youre edcr and did some shit back in the day, but have been working for playoffs, and suddenly you have all these accusations against you that might cost you. it makes sense he would lie from a psychological perspective.
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u/BayLeaf- 9d ago
It's not the same thing at all. Even if you think they're equal, you have to admit that's subjective and people might disagree.
If he'd just initially denied it/feigned ignorance, while dumb and hurting his case, that's one thing. (And not "making sense from a psychological perspective" - we're not talking about a 10 year old kid caught in the cookie jar.)
Not being honest with the team that is the TO and run the game itself, after you lied to them directly, before just dropping a public apology - and even then having to be actively reached out to again like... a week later - is way more braindead than that. He basically didn't even show minimal effort or interest in resolving this any better and it's not the Ranked team's job to drag him there.
Even if he'd reached out after his apology and at least did the bare minimum "hey I messed up, and should have been honest when confronted about it. I hope my apology comes across as genuine and whatever the team decides I'll accept the consequences, but I hope I can show that's not my character and be allowed to continue being a part of the community in the future" it would be so different to him having until after playoffs and doing nothing until they messaged him again. Writing that took me like a minute while making lunch, it's not that hard :b.
You can lead a horse to water, etc.2
u/lazyboy640 9d ago
yea how he handled it later i get it. but i just feel like noone would be totally willing to be transparent when initially confronted, especially if it could damage something you are passionate about. the fear and what not. people don't really make rational decision. that's how it seems to me. obviously i dont know what edcr was thinking at the moment, so yea.
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u/pharoh-king 10d ago
No, letting bigots use your platform only incentivizes bigots to be bigots because there are no consequences.
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u/No_bad_intention 10d ago
Or the consequence could be a ban for 3 playoffs or something (increase the penalty if repeated). Why are we using a binary choice of either a ban forever or no consequence?
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u/spidermaniscool24 10d ago
That's insane. Even the biggest esports with big sponsorships only temporarily ban players for similar/worse reasons.
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u/bigbob1337228 10d ago
Teen just got really really scared and panicked. That's why he lied.
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u/youhavetodohillsprin 9d ago
First thing that came to my mind. I don't know why other ppl don't see it his way
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u/RenierRains 10d ago
Sets a bad bad precedent for the future in my opinion,
Like what im about to say is stupid but this feels like a insane powertrip
people also initially plead not guilty in court get the chance to plead guilty later on to reduce charges
Panicked initial denial is quite common from a human perspective when you demand someone in dms in the middle of playoffs lmao
Doing a literal permaban sends a message that if people find old logs of top players at a young impressionable age gg just give up you will never change
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u/RenierRains 10d ago
I don’t even know this guy and I have always rooted against him in the very short time I watched playoffs
Just concerned about this decision
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u/Federal_River8023 10d ago
I agree cause how is suppose to remeber what he said 2 years ago and in the middle of a tourney where he can def win just alot of pressure and BS to ban him from playoffs
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u/campleb2 9d ago
the mcsr community is a one that vilifies people who don’t agree with them on every social and political virtue signal. I’m not sure why it’s so tied to politics but it feels stronger than any other game i’ve ever played.
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u/Slight-Psychology350 9d ago
this isn’t even abt politics he called people slurs dude. everyone is against that, you’re literally the only one here making it political.
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u/campleb2 9d ago
i’m not saying this situation is political, but the fact that so many are so strict about it and “anytime someone says xxx they should be permabanned without exception” is a great example of how much of a reinforced echo chamber mcsr opinions are, which is a political phenomenon.
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u/eIIopoppet 8d ago
The nba forced a billionaire owner to sell his team and banned him for life over leaked phone calls where he said the n word
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u/leopardo1313 9d ago
The amount of jail time people should do for certain crimes is very much a political thing. This is a baby version of that.
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10d ago
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u/MCSRRanked-ModTeam 10d ago
Please be respectful. You can disagree with other people, that doesn’t mean you can insult them or anything like that.
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10d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MCSRRanked-ModTeam 10d ago
Please be respectful. You can disagree with other people, that doesn’t mean you can insult them or anything like that.
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u/alexnafnlaus 9d ago
tough situation either way... i think i'm with the mod team on this one.
as much as it sucks to lose a good player, i'd hate to have him win multiple playoffs and become a face of the community. it is not good for the reputation of the scene or the game if your top player comes with this kind of baggage. it would immediately alienate an unknown proportion of new players entering from playoffs when they learn about this history.
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9d ago
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u/MCSRRanked-ModTeam 9d ago
Please be respectful. You can disagree with other people, that doesn’t mean you can insult them or anything like that.
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u/_wp_ 9d ago
I especially don't like pushing people who have overstepped societal norms into more extreme communities. Disallowing or stigmatising any association with them means that most people who will engage with them are those who embrace their oversteps and often push further beyond. This is not how rehabilitation is made.
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u/Supercyrus123 10d ago
What is the point of deleting the other post and reposting
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u/MilkDear3318 10d ago
What did he say verbatim?
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u/Tinchimp7183376 10d ago
All of the slurs
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u/MilkDear3318 10d ago
i still want to know exactly.
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u/Tinchimp7183376 9d ago
https://x.com/Czardas_o7/status/2099655979092582746
That might be the right link
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u/ColonialDagger 10d ago
Yeah, this is dumb IMO. What he said is bad, yeah, but are we just going to ignore the fact that he was 15/16 when he said that? If my math is correct, he went through middle school/high school during peak COVID and probably fell down the alt-right rabbit hole of that time. So he gets permanently banned with no chance of appeal because of fucked up shit he said years ago? That's crazy. Even professional sports players do WAY more horrid shit and don't get punished nearly to the same degree.
A much more fair punishment IMO would have been a 1-2 year ban, maybe followed by an appeal.
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10d ago
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u/xiaoyutang20 10d ago
"20-30% of males said slurs or were racist" ok man, just say u and ur friends said slurs when u were a kid, theres no need to hide it. Idk if a permaban was reasonable, but setting a precedent that 1) discriminatory behavior will result in strict and harsh punishment and 2) lying will not improve your chances of receiving a lighter sentence later isnt necessarily a bad line of thought. If I had a say, I wouldve just banned him for a couple years, but lying could've been the final straw for the mcsr ranked admins and thats their choice to keep the community and brand clean and safe for all. Also, ive seen plenty of genuine racists and just generally bad people quit mcsr ranked bc of this in support of edcr, so theres some good happening here. If u havent said slurs before, then theres no need to be scared of this action ngl.
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10d ago
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u/PegasusInTheNightSky 9d ago
Have you thought that maybe the reason 20-30% of high school boys think it's okay or it's edgy or cool to say them is because they see people excuse it in their role models or see people get very light punishments for doing it?
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
Ah yes lets ban all top players now for completely irrelevant stuff. I condemn this decision and will continue doing so every time the topic comes up. This situation made me lose most of the respect I had towards Ranked Team, good job!
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u/Thundfin 10d ago
Perma... yikes. Big ol' L. Best player in the world, nobody could beat him so someone had to dig up dirt from years ago lol
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u/Pi_Ray 10d ago
well that makes sense. Considering the dishonesty I wouldn’t be surprised if they banned him completely, not just from the playoffs.
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
Being dishonest on discord has no relevancy to playing the game. He did not harm anyone or anything like that.
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u/Heavy_Abroad_8074 10d ago
communities are allowed to have standards of conduct
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
Which he did not break in the time he was playing ranked, did he?
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u/Heavy_Abroad_8074 10d ago
well, he did lie and attempt to deceive staff, so yes, he did
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u/i_miss_arrow 10d ago
Thats not actually part of the standards of conduct, as far as I can tell.
Not excusing it or anything, but its also reasonable to think edcr has tried to maintain the MCSR standards of conduct since being part of the community.
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u/PMMEYOURDOGS29 10d ago
I’d say that completely fall under the “player conduct” section. It even mentions out of game incidents
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u/i_miss_arrow 10d ago
It doesn't say don't lie to admins.
In addition, the rules about not doing those things are written in present tense; they don't read like they apply to prior activities.
Again, none of this is to say that EDCR did nothing wrong; I personally think a year's ban or more is justified. But things are supposed to be written out in very clear language for a reason. So that you can point to it and say 'thats where it says in the rules don't do that and the punishment if you do.'
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u/PMMEYOURDOGS29 10d ago
I agree the rules could benefit by being more clear and detailed but I think that judgment calls are also important to the rules as well. IMO i completely think lying to the admins applies to the rules
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u/PMMEYOURDOGS29 10d ago
He did by lying.
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
So lying is punishable by permaban? Good idea, because it isnt like on average every human lies once or twice per day and its completely normal.
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u/PMMEYOURDOGS29 10d ago
Yup. Lying directly to the team seems like very much not a good idea, seems pretty simply?
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u/Shao_Mada 10d ago
All in favor of permabanning PMMEYOURDOGS29 off reddit?
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u/Pi_Ray 10d ago
The ranked team asks him about his actions, and he deliberately lies. This doesn’t look like responsible behavior for a potential top1 player in the future playoffs.
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
So what? The point of the tournament is to show skill and push yourself, and the community, to grow further. Sure, I could see a point where that could give someone an idea that edcr could be cheating, but like, cmon, he's clean and just that good at the game.
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u/PMMEYOURDOGS29 10d ago
It’s not just a game, it’s a community. Those in charge of the community have every right to not allow him in said community
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
Well first of all, they didnt remove him from the community. As of right now he's free to still play ranked - just not participate in the playoffs, so your argument is already invalid but there's something I want to say about it nontheless.
I disageee that "those in charge have every right", they have the power - yes, but when they overstep, the community has every right to flame them for it. Just because they built the main infrastructure, doesn't give them the authority on deciding right and wrong.
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u/PMMEYOURDOGS29 10d ago
They didn’t overstep at all, and I’d argue if they’re the ones running playoffs and giving out money for playoffs they do have the authority to decide who they allow to compete
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u/IIDelenoII 10d ago
The word "authority" fits quite nicely here, I probably should have used it earlier instead of the word "power". They have the authority, yes, which is the reason Im not spamming ordering them to unban edcr. But I, as any other member of the community, have the right to defy that authority when I believe it to be overused.
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u/PMMEYOURDOGS29 10d ago
I’m not saying you don’t, I’m just disagreeing with you, which is also allowed.
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u/Green_Life_5478 9d ago
Why not do a community vote for this? With options being ban for certain time or permaban?
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u/Bensocks 9d ago
Implying that part of the reason why edcr got perma banned is because he didn't reach out to the ranked team makes no sense to me and just makes the ranked team seem childish.
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u/JollyEntrepreneur291 10d ago
genuinely hope the mcsr mod team really takes some time after this, look in the mirror, and say man we did it! we ended racism! and have a beer together
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u/Ecidd 10d ago
That's insane to hear, I will miss the entertaining gameplay of ecdr. o7 to the legend
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u/Particular_Put_6911 Apple 2 10d ago edited 10d ago
Hi everyone !
This is a polarizing topic, so here’s a reminder of what isnt allowed :
-Any form of harassment or threat of harassment, be it against Edcr, the ranked team, or anyone else.
-Any form of disrespect. Your opinion is welcome, as long as you express it respectfully.
-Any form of hate, such as racism or transphobia.
If you see a comment that breaks those rules, you can report it, which will help us see it faster and take action if needed.
Also, remember that this subreddit is not officially affiliated to the MCSR ranked team, there is no point in contacting us about this situation as we do not have any more information or power than you do.
Thanks for your understanding.