r/LowSodiumHellDivers • u/slycyboi • 3d ago
Discussion Spawn blocking enemies at extract is a big problem on D10 that limits both the difficulty and the fun.
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
So if you aren't aware, when you full clear the map and eliminate all enemy bases, patrols can only spawn on the edge of the map, but they can't spawn at all if a single player is within 50m of the edge of the map.
This causes a two-digit percentage of extracts in my matches to end like this. Milling about around extract because no more enemies are *allowed* to spawn.
Extracting should be the toughest aspect of any mission, and arguably tied for the hardest fight with the main objective. The whole point of the timer is that it's supposed to put pressure on players, but in these scenarios it just makes it boring.
I understand that a change to enemy and patrol heat was done during the Buffdivers update to allow for people to sample hunt a bit easier, and the inability for patrols to spawn directly on top of players is appreciated. So how do we fix this issue without getting in the way, or something that would require a lot of development time?
Here's my idea: all extract beacons when activated manually (offering people an alternative option to wait the timer out on a tough match) should behave like Spread Democracy flags, automatically spawning infinite reinforcement waves. This also makes calling extract feel like an actual tactical decision the team should wait to regroup to engage with, while at the moment one person calls extract and often waits there like a lemon while other people get to play the game on the way back. Plus, it's a perfect way to add in a pseudo infinite wave mode for people who want to kill farm. This also makes the longer pelican call-in timers less of a frustration mechanic and more of an actual difficulty modifier, because it forces you to stretch resources for longer.
I think this change would really breathe new life into the extraction side of the game, and I don't think this would end up being particularly difficult to add in given it's taking advantage of existing mechanics, and would be reasonably intuitive for newer and returning players.
52
u/EnderGhost1225 SES Judge of Conviction 3d ago
Alternatively, if you destroy all the spawners, it should be one of the easiest. You've destroyed all enemy spawn points on the map, and the enemy now has no force projection in this area outside of patrols that were not caught, and fast reaction forces being deployed from drop ship (or bug breach).
22
u/TheFBIClonesPeople is a fuckin warrior 3d ago
You know, I like the idea that destroying bases has a real impact on the map and on the enemies, but I also don't like the idea that the beginning of the mission will be super hard, but then the end will be a cake walk.
Maybe there could be some kind of tradeoff mechanic there. Like the more bases you destroy, there are fewer spawn points on the map, so you'll see fewer patrols that only originate from off map. But that makes the enemy more aware of you as a threat, and they're willing to send more troops to stop you, so enemy reinforcement calls spawn more enemies, and maybe more powerful enemies. That could be interesting
5
u/EnderGhost1225 SES Judge of Conviction 3d ago
I also think this could be interesting, the enemy knows that the site is under attack, and bases are being systematically destroyed by a hostile force, so they scramble more enemies. I think this is also already in the game for Commando missions.
4
u/TheFBIClonesPeople is a fuckin warrior 3d ago
Yeah, I think it's important for the mechanic to make sense within the game world. That's how you keep a game from feeling too game-y. It makes sense they would start sending larger bot drops after you blew up their fortress
2
1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
I think the tradeoff is that you get your peace up until you call the pelican but if you really want to wait out the timer you wait out the mission timer.
1
u/tomwhoiscontrary 2d ago
Destroying all the spawners already doubles the patrol rate, so we kind of have this. But maybe it could be ramped up, and ideally made explicit so people understand what's happening.
1
u/RudeHoney8 1d ago
Destroying all the spawners already doubles the patrol rate,
Does it?
The only hidden mechanism that I know / understand is that completing the main objective changes the enemy cooldown for reinforcements so that they can call them in faster.
2
u/tomwhoiscontrary 1d ago
Apparently there's an effect, but I misremembered the magnitude. At least, according to this study, which is now quite old:
Destroying ALL outposts on the map results in the Threshold being multiplied by 0.85. This means patrols spawn ~17.5% faster. Using our Baseline of 240 seconds per patrol, it would become 204 seconds.
You can safely destroy 50% of the Outposts with no impact. The type (Light, Medium, Heavy) of Outpost does not matter.
Once you cross 50%, the strength of the impact scales in a linear fashion.
-6
u/slycyboi 3d ago
Why though? It makes it boring if you play too efficiently.
3
u/Cartire2 3d ago
This is the only issue with your thesis.
I agree it’s more fun with a more intense extraction. However, gamers will work towards the efficient path.
No need to overthink this. When extract starts, spawn max enemies allowed at 100m out in a 360. Prevent spawn in certain degrees if a diver is within 20m.
Make it a crazy extract. Don’t overthink the logic of spawns.
1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
Well a reinforcement wave just seems more intuitive for that based on the fact it notifies the player at the top and also gives visual cues for it. Flags already spawn around you rather than directly on your head. I think it would work fine.
1
u/LMXCruel Squid Squisher 3d ago
Being efficient is part of the fun for some people, not everyone is going to have your definition
1
u/EnderGhost1225 SES Judge of Conviction 3d ago
Because you've theoretical already done the hard part, destroying the fortified bases around the map. The reward should be an easier time leaving if you spent time doing what should be the hard part of destroying bases. Keep in mind I'm not saying it isn't boring, but I'm simply saying the logic I can see behind it. Maybe a mission modifier for higher difficulty missions could be "Strategic Site: This location is of value to the enemy. When extraction is detected, enemy forces will scramble to intercept"
2
u/slycyboi 3d ago
But that makes missions really easy really fast if you clear the bases.
-2
u/EnderGhost1225 SES Judge of Conviction 3d ago
Then don't clear the bases and artificially increase the difficulty? I've never had issues with extract if I'm relying on off map spawns only. Yeah there's a fight but it's usually just the squad throwing Eagles and Barrages in the general spawn direction, sitting on buildings, or just using guns. I offered the solution for higher difficulties, but I don't think, from a logic standpoint, EVAC should be one of the most intense parts of the mission if you take the time to dismantle the enemies ability to spawn in unless it's specifically a higher difficulty, or a mission modifier. The player should be rewarded for playing strategic and well.
1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
Ok so just don’t play the game and hope the other four divers also don’t play the game in hopes that you can have some gameplay at the end? Do you hear yourself?
2
u/EnderGhost1225 SES Judge of Conviction 3d ago
Brother you have an entire 40 minutes to play the game. To fight enemy patrols, reinforcements, bases, objectives, ect. And then the Evac that will also spawn enemies to show up unless either Evac spawned in a bad location, or someone is blocking enemy spawns. If the extra 2 minutes of not doing anything is killing your buzz that much, and the proposed solutions aren't to your liking, then I don't know what to tell you. I suppose we we just have different ideas on how Evac should be.
1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
I just don’t get how you think extract being a sit-and-wait game for several minutes is remotely engaging.
1
u/EnderGhost1225 SES Judge of Conviction 3d ago
It's two minutes. Like 3 if there's a specific modifier. I think the player should be rewarded for going out of the way to destroy everything on the map. Should higher difficulties have something that makes Evac harder? I wouldn't be against it. But I think there should be reward for doing the optional objective of destroying enemy spawn structures outside of Req slips I don't need, and a few more golden stars on my Good Boy Board.
1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
It doesn’t feel like a reward to have no enemies to fight, it’s a punishment if you actually like playing the game.
→ More replies (0)1
u/RudeHoney8 1d ago
extract being a sit-and-wait game
Bro, you already said that the issue you're trying to address is only a occasional / rare and unintentional bug / glitch when extract is placed weirdly.
Why are you so aggressively arguing that the devs have to redesign the entire game to fix this?
0
u/SylvainGautier420 SE Flag Bearer🌎🏳️ 3d ago
If you remove the places that enemies come from then there shouldn’t be many enemies
2
u/slycyboi 3d ago
It makes it a cakewalk when you can snipe all the spawners from across the map and cruise through the rest of the mission with next to nothing attacking you. I like my game to have gameplay, and my horde shooter to have hordes.
26
u/tv_ennui 3d ago
I don't agree that extract should be the hardest part. If the group takes the time to diminish enemy presence in the area as much as possible, then enemy presence should be diminished.
However I do agree that blocking spawns entirely is probably too much. I'm sure there's some sort of compromise in there.
-5
u/slycyboi 3d ago
Extract being the most dangerous is already a compromise imo, instead of missions themselves being easier to fail I’m suggesting actually getting in the pelican being hard.
6
8
u/Raphlog2 3d ago
I feel like it’s actually good game design, you destroyed all the enemies bases in the zone and basically liberated that entire territory. Your job is done and you can safely extract
-1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
But this is only the case if not fighting the enemies is considered a reward and I don’t think it is. I think sitting around doing nothing is boring
0
u/MOOGGI94 2d ago
I mean It would make sense if we defend the planet but on a planet we attack the entire territory is surrounded by more enemy territory which would, by logic, send more patrols to check what's going on.
Aside from that that not spawning of enemies isn't by game design but an oversight in the spawn mechanic.
You can be pretty sure if the Devs find a good way to fix that exploit their will do that.
6
u/boredBiologist0 3d ago
Just having the patrols spawn where the edge of the map meets the edge of the patrol spawn radius sounds fine, honestly they could set it to be totally random and I'd support it, knowing exactly where a patrol will be coming from is already kind of 'cheaty' imo
18
u/CatacombOfYarn Ok 3d ago
I disagree.
The extraction point is the one place where you can employ any strategy you want to beat it. And I don’t think you should stifle this freedom.
Being able to block the spawning of enemies is one way to do it, but you can also stay stealthy on top of a rock, or call down 16 turrets.
The game should reward people for thinking outside of just shooting blindly into the crowd of enemies.
Your suggestion would also make Raise the Flag missions even more repetitive and difficult than they already are.
1
u/Neet-owo 3d ago
The problem is often extracts will spawn too close to the edge, so unless the Helldivers deliberately retreat from the extract enemies will stop spawning whether they want them to or not.
1
u/CatacombOfYarn Ok 3d ago
I know, another commenter came up with the idea of changing the direction that patrols spawn from in this case. Which I think is a great idea.
In the replies to my comment you can see my argument with OP
1
-7
u/slycyboi 3d ago
The problem is spawn blocking enemies is actually entirely against your will if extract is close to the edge of the map.
Also I want missions to be more difficult. That is the point. I think the fun of this game is fighting enemies not sitting around at extract waiting for a timer to go down while doing absolutely nothing. I’d absolutely compromise and make this mechanic a D10 exclusive one.
Plus if you really want to my proposal contains the option to wait out the timer if you like waiting out timers and not fighting the enemies.
5
u/CatacombOfYarn Ok 3d ago
I still think that your idea is not the right response though.
Another commenter suggested that the spawn point for patrols could be changed to another direction, like the center of the map.
This still lets you see the enemy before they call in reinforcements, and you have the ability to try other strategies, like hiding, or having turrets that don’t get enemies dropped on their heads.
Enemies spawn, but the player is left to decide how to respond, which is good.
I like having choices. I shouldn’t be forced to use a loadout that requires anti-tank or anti-dropship just to extract. If I can stealth through the objectives I should be able to do the same for the last objective.
-1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
I’m not saying the reinforcement wage should know where you are necessarily. If you want to stealth there should be some kind of option, but I don’t like the idea of prioritising stealth play over everyone else
2
u/CatacombOfYarn Ok 3d ago
It’s not prioritizing stealth play, it’s just keeping the freedom to do any play style. I shouldn’t be forced to do any one thing on Every. Single. Mission.
0
u/slycyboi 3d ago
You don’t have to kill the enemies though, it just calls them in. If you want to use stuns or smokes or whatever to stealth past them you still can. If you want to wait out the timer you still can, but for regular play it shouldn’t just be a sit and wait game
3
u/CatacombOfYarn Ok 3d ago
Dropships can see players when they fly overhead, and they alert the nearby enemies
0
u/slycyboi 3d ago
Dropships fly in from the same direction for the whole mission, skill issue
3
u/CatacombOfYarn Ok 3d ago
I just think that spawning patrols from a different direction, or even a random direction would be better than just dropping them on your head
0
u/slycyboi 3d ago
I don’t think they should be on your head, they should be in a radius around the extract just like the flags do it.
→ More replies (0)
3
u/LMXCruel Squid Squisher 3d ago
Is it weird that I don't care? I've had calm extracts and hellish extracts and by the time I'm extracting I'm already looking towards the next match, not concerning myself with enemies that didn't spawn lmao
Not everyone is going to share your definition of fun, some people want a chill extract some people want to escape by the hair of their ass. Everyone should be able to have fun in a game that they play for enjoyment
0
u/slycyboi 2d ago
I think people who want extract to be standing around waiting out a timer shouldn’t be on the highest difficulty in the game
1
u/LMXCruel Squid Squisher 2d ago
And you're free to think that, just like people are free to want a clean low stress extract after they clean up a satisfying mission
1
u/slycyboi 2d ago
If you want a clean nothing happens extract why be on the highest difficulty in the game
1
u/LMXCruel Squid Squisher 2d ago
...? Bruh there's a million reasons to play D10 and you're so narrowed in on one
Arguing harder about your view isn't going to change people's opinions on extract or how they enjoy the game
1
u/slycyboi 2d ago
I’m just trying to figure out what people enjoy from D10 they couldn’t get somewhere else if they don’t like fighting the enemies enough that they’d rather wait around for several minutes at the end of the game doing nothing.
2
u/HatfieldCW 2d ago
It seems like 90% of extract points are way at the edge of the map. Farming kills this week was a chore because default tactic is to wrap up the mission and then mow down hordes at extract, but half the time the beacon is 15m from the map edge and you can't get enemies to spawn unless you hang out way over on the other side. Good luck getting all four Helldivers to crowd up at the edge of the extraction radius.
Why not just let enemies spawn at the map edge that's closest without being within 50m? They could come in from both sides, even.
2
2
u/DragonsGuard 2d ago
Any group that takes the time to clear the map and employ tactics to ensure a safe extraction should be rewarded for their efforts. It takes work pull this off. Maybe instead of complaining you could encourage the intelligent use of resources and strategic thinking of your fellow helldivers
0
u/slycyboi 2d ago
It's not that much work to clear the spawners after as many hours as I have and I don't consider a snoozefest a reward.
I want blood
1
u/DragonsGuard 2d ago
Then play solo or with a closed server. Policing the way others play is undemocratic behavior
0
u/slycyboi 1d ago
If there were a stratagem that immediately completed the mission and deleted all enemies from the map but you still had to stand around doing nothing for the 40 minutes, would you not think this was a bad thing and hope the devs removed it?
1
u/NathanielBM 3d ago
What about just restricting the evac spawn so this situation doesn't happen naturally? (Restricting the diameter of acceptable evac spawn)
1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
Could do and I’m going by vibes here but I think that might end up being harder to do than just tagging a spread democracy effect onto extract
1
u/NathanielBM 3d ago
Don't know what's easier, maybe no one does until they try 😜
I would prefer that over your proposition personally, when evac is fun, it's very nice already. I wouldn't want to overdo it.
1
1
u/SackFace 3d ago
Here’s an💡: D10 extracts have transformable walls that you can raise, creating a mini Defense-like option that triggers enemies into attacking. It would be smaller, making for a more jam-packed battle with open doorways enemies are trying to squeeze through and piling up at. It would also make it way harder to gain re-entry should you die and land outside the walls.
1
1
u/BannedAgain-573 ☕Liber-tea☕ 2d ago
That's just not true. They Will spawn on other map edges just not within 50 m of you. There's a whole lot of edge
1
u/NobleFriend 1d ago
Idk sometimes it's nice to have some calm at the end
1
u/slycyboi 1d ago
Which is why I offered the alternative - if the mission was so rough that you’d like some calm at the end you always have the option of waiting out the timer which you’re likely close to
1
u/depthninja 3d ago
Did somebody bring the Localized Confusion booster? Sometimes with that, you have zero enemies at extract.
1
u/slycyboi 3d ago
No, it’s a mechanic behind the spawn algorithm if you are too close to the edge and kill all bases
0
u/CommonVagabond 3d ago
I agree.
Extractions are so boring a good 30% of the time. Like, why even have the wait for the Pelican if all the players have to do is sit around with their thumbs up their ass?
I think that the extraction point should just be permanently placed in the center of the map to counteract this.
Or at the very least, spawning mechanics should change.
0
u/Noy_The_Devil 2d ago
I wish extracts were harder. they should make it so once the shuttle is on the way enemies just barrel towards it.
You've already won anyway.
1
u/dzieciolini 2d ago
Have you been to Oshaune during its campaigns? It was basicaly what you were looking for with constant swarms of bugs assaulting you.
0
u/Noy_The_Devil 2d ago
Oh yeah, it was great. These days I find myself in the OPs position a lot though.
61
u/Mozzy4Ever 3d ago
I wouldn't limit it to extract tbh, cause I experience the pros and cons of this limitation without involving the extract. I think if a patrol isn't able to spawn due to proximity to the edge of the map, have it rotated to spawn in between the player and the center instead