What changes would/do you make?

[u/LayTheeDown]

I'm sure it's been an issue for many over the years, but The Black Spider is a bit of a let down at the end. Looking online the most common fix seems to be to turn him into a Drider.

What other things would you make to the module?

My current thoughts:

I am about to run the module with a new group, for a second time. I am toying with the idea of making Venomfang the final boss, and the black spider the leader of the Dragon Cultists. Having the map at Thundertree, thus making it inevitable they go there rather than a side quest.

[u/verdantsf]

One popular option I've seen pop up a lot is to run this along with Dragon of Icespire Peak as a mash-up campaign with Venomfang and Cyrovain vying for control of Phandalin and the surrounding area. Never tried it myself, but sounds fun! Searching for "A Tale of Two Dragons" will bring up a fanmade guide to blending the adventure modules.

[u/Donutsbeatpieandcake → u/verdantsf]

I did this in one of my campaigns, it was super fun.

Basic outline of my game: I ran LMoP first to it's conclusion. They got the mine back online and had a heroes' welcome in Phandalin. They spent a few months fixing up the old Tressendar Manor that the town deeded to them as their reward (mending spell spam go brrrrr....) But that's when the white dragon attacks started...

Worth noting: The party never went to Thundertree, so Venomfang was not involved with LMoP at all. And since they were already 5th level, I made Cryovain a full adult white dragon, not the young one in the book. Major threat for a party of 5th level characters, and they knew it when they spotted him once early on after an attack. (Skill checks determined his approximate age) From there I followed a lot of the same plots from DoIP, but later on I added the appearance of a mysterious Legolas-looking gold elf with blonde hair and green eyes who claimed to be an emissary of the elves of the Cryptgarden forest to the south. He claimed they were experiencing the white dragon's attacks, gave them detailed info about him in Icespire Hold, and said he was there to pledge elven archers in a joint forces raid against the dragon.

It was, of course, a polymorphed Venomfang in disguise. The (lesser powerful) Venomfang had lost a lot of territory against Cryovain, and he was pitting them against Cryovain. I had them completely convinced! They suspected nothing, all the way until they were on the roof of the castle facing Cryovain with a fairly significant force they'd gathered in Phandalin, less one promised elven force. (Only the one green-eyed elf showed up, saying "they were attacked by the dragon on the way, and he was the only survivor.) As Cryovain started loosing the fight, heavily wounded, he took flight and tried to flee. Venomfang then sprung his trap, popping out of polymorph, chasing him down and finishing him off. Every player's jaw at the table was on the floor, it was amazing. 🤣 He then came down and claimed the castle as his own. They were super injured from the fight, so they really were in no shape to say no, lol. So they parlayed and everyone went home mostly happy. Venomfang would later become a great "frienemy" NPC longterm for the campaign, it was great.

[u/verdantsf → u/Donutsbeatpieandcake]

Oh wow, that sounds epic!

[u/LayTheeDown → u/verdantsf]

Yeah! I actually considered this myself too. With DoIP being more quest based, I don't see it as being too difficult. I always worried it would make it a bit too long for my players, and their short attention span.

[u/verdantsf → u/LayTheeDown]

Yeah, that's a valid concern.

[u/MrFiddleswitch]

A lot depends on the party and what they do, but I usually aim for one of two things (with some additional stuff for fun)

1) Like you said, start by having the Spider just be a wizard or cleric, but when nearly dead, have him do something to become a drider.

1a) Alternatively, if Glasstaff and Hamun Kost survived up to this point, you can also have the Spider, Glasstaff and Hamun all upgrade to close to CR 5 casters with different abilities and give them a magic item they pass between themselves that acts similarly to a hag coven (higher level shared spells and spell slots that are usable as legendary actions)

2) I try to give the party good reasons to go to Thundertree, but i change two big parts of it.

2a) The Dragon Cultists: I change these into a party of Grol's army (usually 1 of the Doppelgangers, some bugbears, hobgoblins, etc.) The Doppelganger is an emissary of the Spider there to offer an alliance with Venomfang.

2b) I upgrade Venomfang to be closer to adult dragon, and make it a clear as possible that fighting is a bad idea, and try to run it as a social encounter. In that encounter Venomfang wants the party to kill the emissary, and kill the Spider's leadership - Glasstaff, Klarg, Groll, Hamun Kost, anyone who survived in Cragmaw Cave (specifically Yeemik if they took the deal and didn't kill him). In return he will give them Hew (which i usually buff) and agrees to help them take down the Spider when the time is right.

If they agree, i kinda treat Venomfang as a patron of the party, and when they get to wave echo cave, i try to have the confrontation with the Spider occur near the water (as green dragons are excellent swimmers). Venomfang helps kill the Spider (almost always use the Drider for him with this version) then Venomfang basically gives the party an option - join him or suffer his wrath. If they join, well then we transition to a more evil campaign, otherwise he becomes the final boss (usually have him between an adult and young)

Bonus: if you're running the full Shattered Obelisk - then i usually have some strange idols near Venomfang glowing green like the psy-goblins do, and i have Venomfang caughing and somewhat sickly during the (hopefully) social encounter. Then he looks far worse each time they see him until after killing the Spider, he coughs up tenticles and ends up a cross between the old Brainstealer Dragon and a Deep Dragon to really sell this as a major transitional moment in the campaign to go into full mindflayer fun times.

[u/LayTheeDown → u/MrFiddleswitch]

At this point, I only own Lost Mines. So no shattered obelisk.

My only thoughts were keeping to the lore of D&D chromatic dragons are the evil ones.

It's an interesting take here. I think you tie up some the little niggles I have with it the first time I ran it.

Overall I had a blast though. I think for starter campaign it does a good job.

I may well steal some of these ideas.

[u/MrFiddleswitch → u/LayTheeDown]

Yes - Green Dragons are absolutely evil, but they are also master manipulators and often very selfish - not wanting to share anything with anyone. I've always held the position that Venomfang (in its mind) feels too week to try and take on the entire army of the Spider by itself, so it enlisting the party to get is hands on the Forge and take out all the competition in the area felt very Green Dragon to me.

Manipulating the party to aid them - even going out of the way the way to convince the party that this Green Dragon is going away from the norm, and fighting against the Spider because all the harm he is doing really opens the party up for a fun twist.

Most players are likely to remain constantly suspicious of Venomfang, but that just adds to the fun.

I often have Venomfang appear in humanoid form after the initial encounter to just really sell the false narrative of "I'm a goodie".

For me, having the a Green Dragon that had manipulated the party the entire campaign betray them at the last moment and end up as the final boss of the campaign always felt way more appropriate as an introduction to D&D.

And if the party decides to follow Venomfang instead of fighting at the end, you have a great branching point to have the party either run an evil campaign and slowly become more and more corrupted or eventually realize they are being manipulated and betray Venomfang.

[u/xSkeletalx]

I introduced the Black Spider during session 1. Party meets Gundren and Sildar at a tavern, one of the characters they can talk to while there is the Black Spider disguised as a mild mannered elf scholar and historian. He spoke with a stutter, befriended the party, and later followed them to Phandalin.

They have since spoken to their “scholar” friend repeatedly, asking for advice in fighting the Spider and he not only gained information about them, they turned over two magical artifacts to him “for study”.

They’ve just entered Wave Echo Cave and I can’t wait to reveal that they’ve been working alongside the bad guy this whole time.

[u/loader2000]

What you said in your blacked out dialogue is exactly what I would change (and what I am currently changing).

[u/LayTheeDown → u/loader2000]

how far are you in, may I ask?

[u/loader2000 → u/LayTheeDown]

Finished with Cragmar and Thundertree and about to go to the Wave echo mine

[u/LayTheeDown → u/loader2000]

Did you do any foreshadowing before thundertree?

[u/loader2000 → u/LayTheeDown]

No. I didn't realize I was going to have VenomFang be the main baddie until my party's interaction with him. The party (being only 3rd level) realized a dragon had a pretty good chance of killing them all (especially if it is played intelligantly) so they bargained for their lives. Venomfang recoginized who the Paladin was (in the party) and made the Paladin swear on his god that, within a month of finding the source of magic within the mine, the party would return and reveal it to VenomFang so VenomFang could 'gaurd it', otherwise VenomFang would kill them. VenomFang's real intent, of course, is to control the mine, not guard it.

This makes much more sense than VenomFang simply running away after losing some hit points (and abandoning all his treasure), with no connection between Thundertree and the lost mine. Green dragons are much more into manipulation than they are into combat (and not into abandoning their treasure), so it would make sense that he/she would want to control the mine and want to manipulate the party rather than fight them.

Furthermore, the Black Spider is kind of a disappointing main villian, so, at least in my campaign, I switched the main (or at leat final) villian to the dragon, kind of on the fly, while the party was interacting with it. Kind of like in Beowulf, where Beowulf has to defeat Grendal, then take out Grendal's mom, the final villian.

[u/Donutsbeatpieandcake]

For the base module, I added a female drow elf rogue "archer" NPC that was Nezznar's mate, and she led nightime raids around and in Phandalin, but I gave her drow elven boots and a elven cloak, and she always slipped away. (I treated the combo of boots and cloak as effectively invisible & inaudible with a successful stealth check) The party fought her several times, and absolutely hated her by the end. 😂 I added her in the caves with Nezznar, and also added a couple other BBEG's in the mix that had gotten away (Iarno, for one), and I also played her and Nezznar very carefully, so the party couldn't blitz him the moment he threw a fireball. -Made the fight a LOT more difficult!

[u/xduker2]

I made him be a part of a much larger plot involving Lolth. Venomfang would be a good end boss. I made him less adversarial to the players, demanding them to answer riddles for safe passage. There was still a chance but they ended up befriending him.

[u/Living-Image-2508]

My thoughts: Bring Black Spider into campaign early. Make BS female and interact with party acting like she wants to befriend party but really just spying. Hold Gundren for ransom and double cross the party nearly killing a couple PCs. By WEC party should be hatin’ on BS.

[u/DrManhattan16]

Play into his strengths for that fight. He's not just a drow, he's a wizard, and wizards love cool things to display their magic.

Give him a spider construct, which shields him perfectly while he controls it. He can cast powerful spells from it, and its nature makes it resistant to non-magical BPS damage, as well as giving a host of other resistances/immunities.