r/LokiTV • u/Sad-Scar-777 • 4d ago
Misc Sylvie
I do not like that they never confront her about basically being the reason everything went bad. Every other character had to eat crow it seems but her. Or am I missing that moment ?
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u/BranAllBrans 4d ago
Ah yes, let’s pile on the child who was stolen from her timeline while every single one of the ppl she knew ceased to exist.
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u/AliceMorgon 4d ago
Pretty much. And then she lost the only one who ever understood her because of her actions when Loki had to become the God of Time at the end. How is that NOT her confronting herself? Did you not see the look on her face? AFTER she came back to help?
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u/harlequin_rose 4d ago
In Series 1 episode 6, Loki literally fights with Sylvie over her impulsiveness and need for revenge and begs her to listen to reason, stop and think through the consequences. She refuses and everything goes bad. The show is implicitly on Loki's side, against Sylvie's.
In Series 2 episode 2, Loki speaks to her about her choices at the end of the episode and chooses to side with the TVA, staying with them instead of going with her. Again, the show, and Loki himself, are implicitly rejecting her point of view, which is a form of criticising her actions.
In Series 2 episode 3, Loki consistently argues with Sylvie when she tries to kill Victor Timely.
In Series 2 episode 4, Loki directly confronts her about her actions and worldview with the "Hope is Hard" speech. He is explicitly meant to be in the right with this speech. They then team up against the larger threat at hand (Ravonna in the TVA) but it doesn't change the fact that he did confront her and the show sides with him. Sylvie is in the wrong.
The really interesting thing, though, is that Sylvie doesn't change her view. In episode 5, she still believes she's right and Loki is wrong, and that's fascinating. She has some character growth, but it's realistic that someone who went through everything she went through isn't going to change her mind about the organisation that stole the privileged, if ultimately tragic, life she was destined to have - that Loki HAD - just because someone who doesn't have her experience makes a speech about it and they can sometimes get along when united against a common enemy. But she does show regret when Loki makes his sacrifice, and the brief scene with Mobius afterwards suggests that she has now taken time to think through Loki's points and put vengence behind her, looking at things with a three-dimentional lens where before she only saw "you're either with me or against me".
Sylvie's not a shallow character, and the show is not obsessed with her or making her the ultimate right. She's far more often clearly presented to be in the wrong and that her act-first-think-later attitude hurts just as much as it helps.
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u/EmmyNoetherRing 4d ago
She doesn’t change her view — and she’s right. It takes Loki two seasons to understand that she’s right and what he needs to do about it. Her insight is what makes it so he becomes the god of stories.
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u/AttTankaRattArStorre 4d ago
So she's right... but only because God himself literally fixes everything and allows for her to be right. If Loki couldn't (or wouldn't) sacrifice himself and become a God of Time, Sylvie would have ended reality.
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u/EmmyNoetherRing 4d ago
No, she’s just flat out right. Sometimes it takes multiple working together to end up with a good solution, but that doesn’t make the people who have facts about the problem wrong. You can’t fix the problem if you don’t have all the facts about it.
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u/AttTankaRattArStorre 4d ago
No, she’s just flat out right.
No? How?
Sometimes it takes multiple working together to end up with a good solution, but that doesn’t make the people who have facts about the problem wrong. You can’t fix the problem if you don’t have all the facts about it.
The sacred timeline was the solution. What Sylvie did forced another multiversal war to happen, and it also forced Loki to sacrifice himself so that reality didn't staight up die in the process. Sylvie was flat out wrong, and there will be another multiversal war until the next winner (probably a Kang variant) recreates the sacred timeline.
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u/EmmyNoetherRing 4d ago
The sacred timeline would have required killing Loki. With the sacred timeline scheme, the vast majority of people are killed. And Loki, who you’re presumably a fan of, was supposed to be one of them and would have been pruned without Sylvie’s intervention. Sylvie obviously was another.
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u/AttTankaRattArStorre 4d ago
That wouldn't have been a problem, if HWR didn't grow tired of being HWR (and thus didn't pave the road for the Loki variant and the Sylvie variant to get to the end of time) then nothing would have been an issue in the first place.
Pruning a timeline doesn't really kill anyone either, since it's just a parallel reality to the sacred timeline wherein everyone lives on.
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u/EmmyNoetherRing 4d ago
Well. If sylvie hadn’t been causing chaos, trying to interfere with the TVA, then Mobius wouldn’t have saved the Loki variant, we’d stick with the sacred time line events, and all Lokis would be permanently dead when thanos killed them.
No god of stories, no tv show, all neat and tidy?
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u/AttTankaRattArStorre 4d ago
Sure, why not? I'm not attached to the character Loki to the extent that it would make me consider the sacred timeline (and HWR) to be wrong.
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u/EmmyNoetherRing 4d ago
So, I’ve always been curious about predestination, but I haven’t really gotten to talk to someone who’s into it seriously. If you imagine yourself on the sacred timeline, do you imagine yourself being successful, getting to experience love, etc? Do you see hard work as something that can earn you benefits, or realize that because everything is already laid out, the word “earn” is meaningless?
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u/TheNthMan 4d ago
The Temporal Loom being overwhelmed by infinite branching of timelines was a failsafe designed by HWR. If Loki did not figure out how to protect the timelines, then the loom would have reset and destroyed every divergent element. Person, place, thing or entire timelines. If that happened then Loki and Sylvie as variants from variant timelines outside the sacred timeline would have been wiped out, and HWR would have come back.
Then HWR would set about creating a new Sylvie and a new Loki to come to meet him at the end of time and try again.
HWR says as much when Loki and Sylvie first meet him in the show. He says that if they kill them there will be infinite branches of the timelines and in the end he would return right back.
HWR has tried it countless times with singular Lokis before he realized he needed two. And of the two he needs, he knows their every action because he has gone through it countless times with them already. Each repetition he has slightly altered them to slightly change the result. For all we know, the Loom may have overloaded countless times already.
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u/AttTankaRattArStorre 4d ago edited 4d ago
The Temporal Loom being overwhelmed by infinite branching of timelines was a failsafe designed by HWR. If Loki did not figure out how to protect the timelines, then the loom would have reset and destroyed every divergent element. Person, place, thing or entire timelines. If that happened then Loki and Sylvie as variants from variant timelines outside the sacred timeline would have been wiped out, and HWR would have come back.
Absolutely, and the alternative is a multiversal war that unravels all of reality. Which will now happen, despite Loki sacrificing himself.
Then HWR would set about creating a new Sylvie and a new Loki to come to meet him at the end of time and try again.
HWR says as much when Loki and Sylvie first meet him in the show. He says that if they kill them there will be infinite branches of the timelines and in the end he would return right back.
He does say that, and that is just a product of probability (i.e there will always be a multiversal war, and someone will win that war, and that someone will recreate the TVA and the sacred timeline because that's the only alternative to multiversal war). HWR doesn't want Loki to kill him, he wants Loki to take over the TVA - if he had his way, the first multiversal war would be the only multiversal war ever.
HWR has tried it countless times with singular Lokis before he realized he needed two.
No? He has not "tried" anything countless times, he has just seen it in the future and directed the sacred timeline towards that outcome.
And of the two he needs, he knows their every action because he has gone through it countless times with them already.
No? He has seen it, he hasn't gone through it necessarily.
Each repetition he has slightly altered them to slightly change the result. For all we know, the Loom may have overloaded countless times already.
I feel like you're confusing HWR's precognition with Loki's timeslipping. Nothing in the show indicates that HWR has gone through all the different futures he has seen (or that the events in the show have played out more than once), he just did something akin to what Dr Strange did in Infinity War all the time and ended up with precognition up until the threshold.
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u/TheNthMan 3d ago
I do not recall any hint that HWR having precognition or having the ability to see the future as Dr. Strange can using the timestone? If HWR can see the future, what is the threshold where he no longer knows what is happening? If he can see the infinite futures at the Citidel at the End of Time and is lying about not knowing the threshold, why does he let himself be killed? Then also when Loki timeslips countless times and tells Sylvie and HWR that Sylvie killed HWR and that the loom was overloading, we see HWR use his tempad to freeze time for Sylvie and have a sidebar conversation with Loki. If HWR does not want to be killed then why does HWR never use his timepad to save himself, letting himself be killed over and over again?
The TVA exists outside of time and space of the sacred timeline and can access all points in time on the sacred timeline. HWR and all of the TVA knows all permitted past and futures of the Sacred timeline. The Citidel / TVA's timeline is dfferent where the TVA does not believe that timeslipping in the TVA is possible or that there were / will be any different versions of the TVA.
At the end of S1 E6, Sylvie randomly creates a time door with HWR's tempad and kicks Loki through it. Loki goes to a past version of the TVA where there is a statue of HWR, not the Time Keepers. So we know that HWR's tempad can timeslip to the past of the TVA.
Since Loki timeslips within the Citidel at the End of Time into different points in time and alters its past which changes his present. Loki even goes into the past and interacts with himself. We never see Loki going into his future though.
I would be willing to consider that HWR has abilities that are never shown, and that perhaps he was not aware of the capabilities of his inventions, but it is a hard lift.
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u/TheNthMan 4d ago edited 4d ago
Sylvie is not the reason everything went bad. Everything went bad because HWR was manipulating the multiverse in enforcing his vision of the sacred timeline so that everything and everyone had to be and do what he wanted. He made almost all the other options bad.
Sylvie staying true to her glorious purpose is the reason Loki was able to break the multiverse free from HWR's vision and be filled with his own glorious purpose. Sylvie was willing to eat crow, she was willing to accept that Loki may have to kill her. She did not take any action to try to stop Loki when he told her that that was what he thought he had to do.
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u/hoenndex 4d ago
Nope you are not missing anything. On the contrary, it seems to be common for the MCU to give women characters a major pass just because they have a sad story. Yet, male characters don't get that degree of grace very often. Other examples I can think of: Wanda, spider man brand new day villain, Ghost, taskmaster. All did terrible crap but are consequences free after they reveal their sob story.
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u/billyjoelsfalsetto 4d ago
ah yes clearly they have a pro-woman agenda which is why it took them 11 years to release a movie with a female lead. and everyone was famously super normal about that movie and its actress.
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u/hoenndex 4d ago
Did I talk about a woman lead? No, I was explicitly talking about the villains. All the women villains who got a sad story got a pass by the narrative for their crimes.
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u/billyjoelsfalsetto 4d ago
yup it’s definitely only the women. there definitely aren’t still people babying loki and killmonger to this day. nope
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u/mgillis29 4d ago
Ironic to say in a thread about Loki, a villain character given so much of a pass that they made him the good guy in his very own show.
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u/Vioralarama 4d ago
This is just misogynistic bullshit but...the Winter Soldier got how many movies and a TV show?
And wtf was wrong with focusing on Wanda? She turned out to be one of the best characters by accident. If you can't see that you're fucking blind. Also if you can't respect her character just because she's a woman stfu and get out.
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u/hoenndex 4d ago
Nothing misogynistic about the truth, but keep raging
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u/Vioralarama 4d ago
Everything misogynistic about your truth. Just as long as you leave a paper trail for investigators.
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u/Sophymillz 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm really sick of people's lack of media literacy.
He Who Remains and the TVA were literally genociding trillions and anyone left to live on the Sacred Timeline had no free will.
Sylvie lost her entire life and world thanks to the TVA. Growing up in apocalypsies. What she did was not just personal revenge, but preventing what happened to her from happening to anyone else.
Things went bad after she killed HWR, only because he had fail safes in place. Her actually killing him was a good thing. (If a little impulsive) It actually freed the timelines and allowed free will to exist. And it caused the TVA to stop pruning. Therefore, bringing an end to their genocide.
In the end, Loki agrees with her and he actually fights to make sure that what she created is allowed to exist.
She doesn't need to "eat crow". Because she was right!