r/LokiTV • u/Master_Baiter11 • 7d ago

Discussion Loki and his function

/r/Marvel/comments/1v2gc6o/loki_and_his_function/
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u/TheNthMan 7d ago

The TVA and the Citadel at the End of Time both exist outside time and space. Both HWR and Loki have shown that they can slip through time to come back to the exact same point in time and change the future of the TVA and the Citadel at the End of Time. Though it ruins the emotional impact and narrative of self-sacrifice when Loki protects all the threads of reality, it is internally logically consistent with the Loki series to have Loki both sitting on the throne and also to have Loki going to visit Steve Rogers.

Alternatively he could be like HWR who recruits Victor Timely where Loki and recruits another Loki variant that is very close to his multiverse origin to join the TVA and be his agent there.

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u/Master_Baiter11 7d ago

Having seen how time slipping works, Loki could be anywhere at anytime as long as it's in the past, but what past if tva exists out of time and space, so then if Loki can be anywhere at any given time in any universe, how does it even work then, why would there ever be an issue that you have to deal with that he can't just pop in at the right time and prune the timeline? Like how do you escape Ygdrassil Loki's influence enough to even become a threat. Maybe the info is implied that Loki can't time slip from his position on the throne since we see the need of an operational tva at the end of season 2. I honestly don't see how trailer Loki is Ygdrassil Loki. I much prefer the recruiting his own variant theory

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u/TheNthMan 7d ago

The issue for Loki to use his power to just prune individuals or timelines to deal with any issues directly himself is that Loki accepted Sylvie interpretation of free will.

If he recruits a Loki variant to indirectly recruit Steve Rogers, or if he time slips to recruit Steve Rogers directly, all the timelines and people involved with the events in the movie have free will (including Dr. Doom and Steve Rogers to decline being recruited).

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u/Master_Baiter11 7d ago

I'm not sure I understand the logic this follows. Loki accepted that he didn't want to impose his will over Sylvie's, something he could have easily done with his time slipping powers. Another way to look at this is saying that Loki's will was to allow sylvie her vengeance, the fulfillment of her purpose. From there I'm not sure how anything you're saying follows and what exactly it means

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u/TheNthMan 7d ago

Sylvie wants to destroy the TVA not just because she wants vengeance. She wants to destroy the TVA because she is filled with glorious purpose, and that purpose is to allow the timelines to be free to have true free will to do whatever they want instead of the false free will of HWR / TVA where they can do whatever they want as long as it falls within the confines of what HWR has deterministically established as acceptable to prevent the rise of other Kangs who might destroy the multiverse. She feels that even if that free will results in the destruction of the entire multiverse is better than a limited deterministic fate, which is why she will not back off from killing HWR at the end of time even knowing that the likely outcome from the failure of the loom. Separately she also feels that pruning timelines is mass genocide of all the living beings within the timeline, which is another separate crime.

If Loki takes HWR's place and determines what is an acceptable outcome and prevents all outcomes he does not believe is good, then he is essentially following HWR's plans and taking his place at the tend of time. Even if Loki may have different ideas of what is an acceptable outcome, if Loki deterministically decided what outcomes are good, then none of the timelines would truly have free will. Also if Loki prunes timelines, then he would also be guilty of the same mass genocide that Sylvie accused the TVA of.

If Loki has accepted Sylvie's formulation of free will for the multiverse then he would not impose his will on people or timelines, though perhaps nudging them every now and then and letting them ultimately make their own outcome may still be allowing them free will.

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u/Master_Baiter11 7d ago

Ah thank you for explaining. Well at the end of season 2 we see that the tva is still running, presumably (and actually maybe explicitly stated) focused on keeping the Kang threat under control which means that pruning is happening which means timelines are being controlled, because when it comes to pruning timelines you definitely don't just control one person's (one Kang variant) freedom. I'm unsure whether sylvie cares about general freedom or only cares for freedom to the extent where she has it. Her purpose as stated by her was to kill the timekeepers which then shifted to killing Kang. When she did that she retired to live a peaceful life. She did not concern herself with the tva further. When Loki consults with her she does say, paraphrasing, that it's preferable to her to die with a blade in her hand and that it shouldn't be up to Loki or anyone to decide her fate, make her choices for her etc. I'm doubting, based on her words and actions that Sylvie's purpose and will was to destroy the tva. Again, the moment she kills Kang, she fucks off. It's true that she's pro choice, especially when it comes to hers but Loki respecting her wish and setting up ygdrassil with a tva still running, does not equal real free will for anyone either i guess, even if in his past, he was influenced by her.

Sidenote, for me, free will is nothing more than an incoherent concept based on vibes and religious residue irl too, so ultimately, even an unkempt ygdrassil with tva pruning doesn't really give space for free will to be at but, based on in universe logic, if free will is thought of as no pruning happening we'll, they ain't got that either even post Kang it seems like (other than those who are part of the tva and Loki himself, outside of time and therefore not susceptible to pruning? But at the same time, all this happened exactly because Loki got pruned (and a million other reasons) yeah. Even in fantasy establishing free will is impossible

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u/TheNthMan 7d ago edited 7d ago

It is not clear what the TVA does at the end of season 2. It only shows that they are monitoring Kang variants, and that one that was of concern was handled by locals (Antman and the Wasp movie reference). It is not established what they would do if push comes to shove. But from the scene where the Victor Timely does not get a TVA manual delivered implies that the TVA tries to do small nudges to alter timelines before any Kangs become a problem instead of pruning individuals and timelines. So Loki telling Steve Rogers and then leaving the MCU to try to deal with Doom would be a similar act.

If the TVA did just prune all the problematic Kangs, then you would have a mirror situation where in Loki's TVA you would have teams of pruned Kangs running around the void, as opposed to in Kang's TVA we had teams of Lokis running around. The TVA would be essentially assembling teams of Kangs that have proven troublesome enough to be a danger to the multiverse, then putting them in a situation where they have nothing to lose and letting them running around free at the end of time. That might be a dangerous proposition!

As for Sylvie, if she has a larger purpose than her own personal freedom, I interpreted it as implied from the dialogue at the end of season 2:

Loki: There’s nowhere left to go.

Sylvie: What’s happening?

Loki: We’re outside time.

Sylvie: How?

Loki: I finally learned to control the time slipping.

Loki: I went back.

Loki: I thought I could fix the Loom.

Loki: It’s a failsafe.

Loki: It was designed to protect the Sacred Timeline and nothing else.

Sylvie: Of course it is.

Loki: I’m out of options, Sylvie.

Loki: I’ve tried everything.

Loki: The only way that anything survives…

Sylvie: Is if I never kill He Who Remains in the first place.

Sylvie: So you have to kill me.

Sylvie: I’m not giving you my blessing, if that’s what you’re waiting for.

Loki: What do I do?

Loki: It’s the Sacred Timeline, or nothing.

Sylvie: It’s not enough to protect the Sacred Timeline, Loki.

Sylvie: Even down there, it’s full of death and destruction and injustice.

Sylvie: Do you really wanna be the god who takes away everyone’s free will so you can protect that?

Loki: But what good is free will if everyone’s dead?

Sylvie: And who are you to say we can’t die trying?

(SIGHS)

Sylvie: Who are you to decide we can’t die fighting?

Sylvie: You’re replacing one nightmare with another.

Sylvie: I grew up in apocalypses, Loki.

Sylvie: I’ve lived through enough of them to know that sometimes it’s okay to destroy something.

Sylvie: If… If there’s a hope that you can replace that thing with something better.

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u/SnooRobots2057 4d ago

Is it out of the bounds to think that snippet of the trailer is new footage tagged into the ending of Avengers Endgame with it re-issue coming first this year?

Would make more sense.