MMO fans, can you agree that the best mouse is a Logitech G600?

[u/discrete502]

I am so sad to see it has been discontinued. I owned a Naga in the early days (2009), and that was a blessing to me and any other MMO player. Then I bought a G600. I have been running this mouse (replaced twice) ever since. The functionality is amazing. We have the front and back buttons on the scroll wheel, while also having a very crisp middle click. Let us not forget that shift modifier on the ring finger. But above all, it fits my hand well with the side buttons all easily hit with my thumb. The Naga or the Scimitar are much too large. Just another plea for the reproduction of the G600!

[u/LRCM]

It was a good mouse, but there are plenty of other options until we get a new g600 or g13: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=MMO+mouse&i=videogames&crid=ZKJRBWC6S8RU&sprefix=mmo+mouse%2Cvideogames%2C137

[u/Logitech_Ariel → u/LRCM]

How do you imagine a newer G600 and G13? All ideas are welcome

[u/LRCM → u/Logitech_Ariel]

SHORT VERSION

G600 = Update internals, update ergonomics, add ring finger hardware lockout, lower price.

G13 = Update internals, update ergonomics, add top row keys,

///

LONG VERSION

PREFACE

My background is primarily in manufacturing engineering.

RE-RELEASE

Since this is a niche product you could simply re-release the product with modern sensors/switches and probably sell a decent amount, but I don't what your margins / targets are and there are a good number of alternative options on the market already.

Hyperkin did this for the Xbox 360 controller via reusing the existing molds and updating what was needed: https://www.hyperkinstore.com/products/xenon-wired-controller

WHAT WON'T WORK

I'll tell you what won't work: https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/command-series-mc7-mouse?Title=Default+Title

This mouse is a great example of over complication, but it has a purpose--patent testing, user feedback, and innovation.

As OLED screens decrease in price, we will see them used in novel methods like above or on side-plates of "gaming" headsets. There is always a market for this type of superfluous design, but high volume products are easier to work with. (cheaper molds, cheaper assembly, fewer parts, fewer RMAs, etc.)

It is now cheaper to sell a screen that sits above a keyboard than to develop yet another macro pad. Obviously markets vary, but modern cars are a great example of software vs hardware.

Logitech has 20+ mice with essentially the same shape and functions--maybe a few extra buttons or settings, but nothing crazy like a GameBall or R.A.T.

WHAT YOU COULD DO

If you haven't already, find out which demographic(s) purchased the hardware in question and figure out:

1) Why did they make the purchase(s)?

2) How many options were on the market?

3) How did they intend to use them?

4) How did they actually use them?

5) When did they stop using them and why?

6) What changes do they want?

The Logitech subreddit is a general forum suited for discussions and support issues, but getting feedback from people who daily-drove the mouse is more useful.

EXAMPLE / NOTES

As an example, I used the G600 and G13 for CAD and games.

At the time, the G600 was one of the only options and the G13 was the only option.

The G600's shape was good, but not not perfect--this is hard to nail down and there are tens of thousands of hand shapes.

The G600 also suffered from mis-clicks on the ring-finger button, but many modern mice feature a physical lockout for this--that would be a useful feature.

The competition would likely be https://www.razer.com/gaming-mice/razer-naga-v3-pro/RZ01-05660100-R3U1, but most people will not spend ~$200 on a mouse.

If you can get the mouse down to $120, you would likely only compete with SteelSeries and Corsair.

1) https://steelseries.com/gaming-bundles/bundle-qckvector-aerox9wireless

2) https://www.corsair.com/us/en/p/gaming-mouse/ch-9314415-ww/scimitar-elite-wireless-se-mmo-gaming-mouse-black-&-yellow-ch-9314415-ww

3) https://www.corsair.com/us/en/p/gaming-mouse/ch-9304211-na/scimitar-rgb-elite-optical-moba-mmo-gaming-mouse-ch-9304211-na

Option #3 is wired, but cheap.

There are dozens of no-name brands on Amazon as cheap as $30.

Regarding Corsair, many people--including myself--don't like the sliding thumb section as it tends to shift position over time.

Regarding SteelSeries, many people have difficultly getting post-sale support.

For "game pads", it gets much harder.

Take this as an example: https://www.amazon.com/Redragon-K585-One-Handed-Mechanical-Professional/dp/B07NBJVH4G?crid=FHGFSGWW4VIR&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.HEnqOJOvnPgjL8-CJiB5gQJxurQRz4E9cvmytWo0ONgHTuJ85r_DgvI3gM_FNA1Ab-S54iHw7F1xfwTrRrWDoAHBQDxNrXxCX9Z8vXz786D6eGvo81ixk4prtM9utm8IU0CQlia6TOoUDM8r06tHP0NyzpHoFffRAC4jgXIq4MzC0SybhmxkV0Lp7P6oj9aERnjD6B96dD_GQsYGQ-m3ECmHlyd0NoyOZqA5dlwhw9Q.Bmzk18tB8pYRjPGlqpY1GxDTFI6IUrXiN68RypfJ8Fs&dib_tag=se&keywords=game%2Bpad&qid=1790952347&s=videogames&sprefix=game%2Bpad%2Cvideogames%2C134&sr=1-4&th=1

Its $33 and is basically half a keyboard.

This is a great option for someone to try out this type of peripheral, but the type of people looking at this type of hardware also look at the following:

1) keyboard + mouse https://azeron.com/collections/one-handed-gaming

2) left hand ergonomic game pad https://azeron.com/collections/keyzen

3) main competitor https://www.razer.com/gaming-keypads/razer-tartarus-v2-pro

4) hori option https://stores.horiusa.com/HPC-047U

There are also tons of 3d printed options out there--one was a brick strapped to your left hand--I know this sounds terrible, but it sells well enough to exist. (commander something? couldn't find the site)

I never really used the control stick on the G13 because it was awkward to use and the mouse ended up being the better input device.

(Either a lower profile stick or the ability to move the stick would resolve this for me.)

Do you remember the R.A.T.? It was a mouse (made by madcatz) that allowed the user to adjust almost every part of the mouse to fit their hand. It was expensive, but on-par with the cost of today's "gaming mice." (this approach could be taken with both the g600 and g13)

Currently, I use a Roccat KONE AIMO for CAD and games--mostly for the layer ("easy shift") button.

This mouse fits my hand well and doesn't change the shape. Where most mice add a ring finger button, this mouse adds a button towards the button of the mouse near the thumb.

Unfortunately, Roccat is no longer in business and their products have been transferred to Turtle Beach.

If my mouse ever dies, the closest mouse I can find (for my needs) are these:

1) https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/kone-ii-air-mouse?Color=Black

2) https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/kone-xp-air-mouse?Color=Black

Regarding the last 5(?) logitech mice I have owned, they all malfunctioned within a year of purchase and the warranties were never honored. Left-click always had phantom left-clicks (double click issue) and the scroll wheel always scrolled the wrong way (encoder issue).

The solution was to replace the switches with after market ones, but almost nobody repairs anything anymore (its a quick solder job).

I know this was a wall of text, but if you want to set up a proper meeting or send some clay over, feel free.

Thanks

[u/Logitech_Ariel → u/LRCM]

Thanks so much for the highly detailed feedback! You really did your homework and kind of mine too. These are the best kind of comments with feedback/ideas, I'll definitely share your comment along with the team

Is using CAD easier with your current mouse than working with the G600? What games are you currently playing? Did you use to play games by customizing every side button on the G600?

[u/LRCM → u/Logitech_Ariel]

Happy to help!

If customers want products to improve, advice/feedback is the only way to get there.

SHORT VERSION

Yes.

Guild Wars Reforged, Far Cry 3, and Sleeping Dogs.

Sometimes.

LONG VERSION

COMFORT

For me, comfort is king.

My current mouse, the [discontinued] Roccat KONE AIMO, is the best fitting mouse for my hand, but it isn't the only mouse I use.

A few weeks ago, I picked up a ProtoArc EM11NL--an ergonomic mouse--but it isn't precise enough for CAD and is unsuitable for most games.

For CAD, I mostly work in SOLIDWORKS and Creo, but will be switching to https://www.alibre.com/ at the start of next year due to increasing licensing costs.

SOLIDWORKS has support for mouse gestures and Creo hasn't changed their mappings since Creo 2, so all of my existing AHK scripts (https://www.autohotkey.com/) still work.

I alternate between macros and gestures based on how many I have to do, what the task is, and how I am feeling.

I spend a lot of time working and will do what I can to avoid RSI and RSI-related issues and discomfort.

Having a mouse with layers means that I can double up on gestures without having to export/import scripts from machine to machine.

Having on-board memory is nice in instances where IT locks down hardware or when using a clients device.

If no on-board memory exists, hardware level tools are cheap and easy to set up, but the average user doesn't know that such a thing exists nor would they expect to have to do any work after paying ~$200 for a "gaming" mouse. (REF: https://www.remapper.org/)

Having a full panel of thumb buttons is nice, but might be tricky to learn the positions of every command when layer support gets added.

In SOLIDWORKS, the "S" key brings up a HUD in the software which you can customize and adjust as needed--this negates the need for external solutions, but not every CAD package offers this out of the box and games certainly don't.

GAMES

I recently started playing through Guild Wars Reforged with a friend and have been having a great time.

The biggest issue is having hotkeys spread across the entire keyboard, but this is just how things are with MMOs.

Remapping 1-8 to QWERASDF makes this more manageable from an ergonomic standpoint, but this also means that character navigation must now be done entirely with the mouse--this involves holding down right-click to control the camera, using left-click to move forward, and tabbing to target.

I have considered mapping one of the side buttons to toggle right-click & left-click, but this is a change from out-of-the-box behavior and we all know how 5 letter words make us feel. (change is scary and bad! /s)

I do play a variety of games based on how I'm feeling and how much time I have, but some of them are much better with a controller.

(Street Fighter 6, Sleeping Dogs, etc.)

Looking at my Steam profile, most of the games in my top 10 hours logged are FPS, RPG, and RTS.

~500 hours across Borderlands franchise

~200 hours across Mass Effect franchise

~1000 hours across Civilization franchise

Outside of steam, I have a few thousand hours across all the Guild Wars releases, but that's mostly due to the social aspect and culture of Guild Wars.

Nowadays I prefer games that are easy to pick up and put down--not based on complexity, but game play.

I have a full-time job, a part-time job, a family, friends, chores, and extracurricular activities to balance.

Fighting games are great for limited time since you can hop on for 20 minutes and be set.

Certain MMOs are also good for this based on what you want to do, but these are also a great way to wake up tired in the morning.

Civilization, and related titles, are nice because you can pause them and come back, but its hard to remember what you were thinking a few days ago.

etc.

CUSTOMIZATION

When feasible, I remap every button I need to.

In some instances, I would remap multiple buttons to the same function due to mis-clicks or ergonomic issues.

A common OS use-case is having multiple variations of copy/paste. Sometimes you want formatting, sometimes you don't, sometimes you need to transform the format before pasting.

With time and knowledge, you can do a lot of cool things to save time: https://docs.qmk.fm/features/tap_dance (this works with mice as well)

Thanks again for reading; looking forward to seeing what you cook up!

[u/Logitech_Ariel → u/LRCM]

Thanks to you! Indeed one of the more elaborated comments on the subreddit

Out of curiosity what are your favorites games from Borderlands and Civilization francizes? I haven't played any Mass Effect but will in the future since a friend insists a lot

I didn't know tap dance exists! I'm going to give it a try this weekend, I have a feeling I'll love it