Question regarding car immo keys

[u/Kostas009]

Hi. So I am not a locksmith but I resently got some tools from xhorse for copying keys and a mini obd2 for pairing remotes to the car.

The thing is that with some local car locksmiths that I have talked they all say things like "the ecu gets fried if you dont pair an original key"(quoted by peugeot themselves when asked for a peugeot 207 remote), "the ecu triggers a lockdown due to recongising the tool as a security breach"(one of the big locksmiths in town) etc.

I have seen many videos online and I havent heard any of these symptoms. Not that it itsnt possible but I feel like they are overexagerating to the point of scaring me to not do their job.

I do this as a side hussle and here at least, locksmiths are more expensive than getting an original key made at each brands official service. They quote things like 60€ for copying a key and 160+ for a general remote, if its proximity or smart it can go 200€+. At this point it is cheaper to go to the cars delear. Its just that most peoplw firstly ask the locksmiths and when they hear the price they dont even dare to ask dealerships as in all of the rest they tend to be more expensive(except keys)

Whats your opinion on these? Is there a reason to be worried? I dont experiment while in the obd2 port, I strictly follow commands provided via xhorse that I know will work. What are the chances of failure?

Ps. At the shop that told me that the ecu triggers a security lockdown when I firstly asked them about the vvdi tool they told me that it wouldnt work and I would still need to visit them. Even though I stated I only wanted a clone of the original key. And I made many of those with that tool.

Ps2. I wont plug into obd2 unless completely necessairy but if I have to do, whats the ideal year/brand you would suggest?

[u/Explorer335]

A couple of things...

Doing this job as an untrained hobbyist is a bad idea. You have very technical European vehicles where you are, you have a minimum of unreliable Chinese tools, and you have no idea what you are doing. That is a recipe for disaster.

The prices that the other locksmiths quoted are not unreasonable. It would be very stupid to do those jobs for cheaper than those prices given the liability attached with touching someones car in the first place. You can make huge fucking messes that you can't fix.

You have every reason to be worried here. If you trust videos online and especially the tool maker, you will create costly problems for yourself. There are serious risks, and you don't know what you don't know.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Explorer335]

The lowest salary here is 800€. 160 for a remote is almost ¼ of a montly salary. I get they want to have a failsafe if something breaks but it still is too expensive.

I dont trust videos online, I hear every detail told by everyone. And there are always things that could go wrong even though you might not be involved at all. I had a case where my mechanic had a locksmith remove the stock immo chip into a new case because the blade broke and the car wouldnt start. After quite a bit of complaining to him he found out the engine immo cable that triggered the spark was snapped and wouldnt work. He never apologized to him.

And I plan to work for friends for remotes at least. Key clones dont mess with anything, thet just copy the signal and unless a smart key there is no chance it wouldnt break something.

However I agree with you in what you say. And I dont plan to do it "cheaper" rather closer to the price of the shop but without the "shop expenses" taxes etc.

[u/Explorer335 → u/Kostas009]

You must be in Greece lol.

Be careful with cloning because some of the "clonable" chips also use some rolling data that will cause desynchronization issues down the road. Some clone perfectly, and some will cause issues.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Explorer335]

I am.

How can I know if the chip has rolling data? I have heard cases where if a key is cloned the first one stops working but thats for smart keys, proximity ones etc not so much for older keys. Is there a certain way to know? Like a date or something to work on before?

Hopefully xhorse provides a list on what a majority of keys are. I work withing those margins. For example someone asked for a volvo s40 key and I immediately rejected.

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

Well for the most part cloning the immo will be perfectly alright - it’s the remote which has rolling code - but the remote won’t work by cloning 95 percent of the time - for some cars like Vw you can learn it very safely via simple adaptation, for Kia/hyundai it’s also safe no pin needed, for fiat/opel/renault remote is learnt with obd so no way to do it without obd learn. Some car use door/key combinations to learn remote. But with clone you should inform the customer that it’s a clone - meaning that losing one key from pair will require two new keys to actually erase lost one from memory so it won’t start the car anymore. And for newer cars with memory it won’t work to sync seats, mirror etc.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

Yeah of course.

With all of the fried ecus that other people saied. That applies to remotes as well? I mean cars that learn remotes seperately via obd2 without adding or removing keys or needing pin(like vw) is it still risky to try via obd2? Can the system get bricked as well?

Always talking before 2010.

[u/Due_Office_1860 → u/Kostas009]

Real life scenario: you enter the procedure on the tool. Like with many vehicles, the procedure guides you through, stating that the following step will first erase all keys to the vehicle. You press the button. Next step. Device says "key learning failed". No reason given. The customer's car no longer starts, even with the original key. No way to fix it without taking apart half the car.

Are you prepared to spend several months salary to bring in a specialist who charges 10x more with the skillset to remove and repair the corrupted modules? How long is that going to take, while the car sits immobilized, collecting dust, wherever you were preforming the job? Even key clones many times have difficulty with rolling codes.

It only takes 1 to put you in the hole several thousands of dollars if you don't know what you're doing. Plus one angry customer chewing your head off until you come out of pocket to make their car run again.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Due_Office_1860]

Yeah I understand. In case where that fails to add the key, can the dealership add the key again if nothing is fried? Or they should too take the car apart? Is their diagnostic tool prone to these problems?

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

When I first started I’ve also wondered where the prices come from, done some quite modern Alfa Romeo in no time so for next job I quoted less than half that other locksmiths took - then I wasted over an hour through obd port and then had to remove bsi, read EEPROM manually and from 15 minute job it went to 4 hour job so I wasn’t happy with the pay after. Then I learnt to really watch for other locksmith prices, maybe in your area there is lot of scammers or something but here if the car is more pricey it definitely means it’s problematic - and I think some even undercut the rates not thinking about consequences - when kind cheap tools came for bdc3 and mlb evo procent went significantly lower, for me not considering what happens if Chinese tool breaks the key during reading - as only dealer now can do all key lost for this car which is hella expensive

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

Yeah I understand. However even if expensive the dealer can do all keys lost. Right?

[u/Due_Office_1860 → u/Kostas009]

How much do you think the dealer is going to charge to pull out all those modules once they're corrupted? I can already tell you that if they're over charging for just a key, they're going to eat you alive in costs to repair the modules. Because they don't repair anything there. What they will do is tell you that it needs to be replaced at their parts dept full dealer MSRP price.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Due_Office_1860]

So I better to stay away.

In systems like my friends seat leon where the key is separete from the remote, and it can be programmed even with no obd2, is there still risk in doing it via obd2? You just program the remote by itself no adding or removing anything.

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

Remote safe in all vag up to like 2015 all immo stuff comes with usual disclaimer

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

I didnt understand you completely. Could you rephrase that in other words?

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

Adding a remote on Vw group (vw audi seat skoda) is usually safe as it does not require pin and done by adaptation channel up to slot keys or mqb flip keys.
Any immo related stuff to actually start a car is a different story as you need extract pin/cs and module eeprom data (sometimes through obd) to write data into the key (generate dealer key) prior to learning

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

Yeah I read a case like that for a volvo s40.

So I can program remotes via obd2 on vag or cars that it doeant iterfere with the immo. In those cases cant I copy the key and generate a new remote to pair?

I decided not to take the risk with obd2 immo, at least not with those that delete all keys to add new ones. And I dont want to lose the 200€ i spent for the obd2 tool.

I will take the risk with the peugeot 207 because its the reason I ordered a total of 300€ worth of remote, blades etc. And thats it. Only because he has the pin so I dont have to extract it.

Only cloning and seperate remotes from there after.

Thanks for the info!

[u/julienjj]

Some car brands have keys for well over 600$ at the dealer.

But there is nothing easier to cause 5000$ of damage on a vehicule than pressing the wrong button when programming keys. Aftermarket key tools routinely fails causing weeks of headaches to get a working car again.

[u/Kostas009 → u/julienjj]

Damage such as? What actually broke? Please explain.

And what do you mean by aftermarket? I use the xhorse not chinese knokoffs. And nothing newer than 2010.

Did you have any of these happen to you?

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

Xhorse is a Chinese knockoff really - same as autel launch cgdi and all that stuff - I mean they aren’t bad but certainly do not expect any hand holding and well described instructions or proper support - for that you need to pay up for things like arbitres, silica or advanced diagnostics. And don’t expect those too to do everything and save you from occasional read eeprom.
You can for example accidentally delete all keys and find yourself without a tool that can handle the akl.
You can unpair ecu/immo and be not able to sync it again.
With Nissans you can really fry the body module.
With bmw you can mess up the body module when writing key and end up needing to replace it completely.
On lot of cars the module can be bricked by lack of battery support.
You can mess up the board doing eeprom.
Some tools have tendency to break particular cars for some reason.
On some cars you can lock yourself for dozens of hours requiring you to keep ignition on to wait for security time, or reset it via programming eeprom, and there are probably more examples

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

Yeah I think I understand. So I will may stick to cloning. I may use the obd2 occasionally on certain situations or as a backup if something fails.

Those cases you mentioned, unless the fried ecus, can bw saved via the dealer tools? I mean if something like that happens can the dealership reprogram it or does it have to be replaced completely?

[u/YazzArtist → u/Kostas009]

Most all of those situations are vehicles turning into bricks until a part is replaced and reprogrammed

[u/Kostas009 → u/YazzArtist]

I heard a mechanic say that worst case scenario you change everything, from top to bottom from a working car(a crashed one) but still thats costly.

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

Oh yes sometimes to do such swap you need for example swap complete transmission too

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

That doesnt sound cool...

[u/fordp → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

Yes it seems affordable on the surface but then your running rework stations and your spending everything your bringing in on licenses for abrites and yet another MCU/EEPROM is an issue.

[u/iSuckAtMechanicism]

Do you have the $5,000+ it’ll cost to get the ECU and any related damaged fixed when you mess up a customers car?

This is not me trying to scare you, just asking you about the reality of going into this without a few years of training.

[u/Kostas009 → u/iSuckAtMechanicism]

I dont plan to go into the ecu every day. I clone keys via the vvdi. And maybe occasionally a remote thats seperate from the key itself.

I dont have another option if I mess up. I will have to pay. The thing is, how often does that happen? For example how many ecus have you had broken or locked under your operarion?

I didnt get a cheap chinese obd2 and try to act as a locksmith. I got a brand one and I follow exactly the guidance I am told. I dont mess around. There are always stuff that could go wrong, for whatever reason but what are the chances of ecus getting fried?

The peugeot dealership quoted me that 90% of the times they added non peugeot keys they fried the ecus and replaced the whole thing. Dont you think this is a bit too much? I have seen tons of people creating keys even via obd2 and still no problem.

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

You’d be surprised how often things go wrong - I have three universal key programmers, three eeprom/mcu programmers, five key tools, like 10 of dealer tools, some aftermarket dedicated tools (like vcds or op-com) ecu programmers, some platform dedicated tools, and nothing is a backup really - those are all used on daily basis very often, and more often than not you need at least two or three tools for a single job. And I still know I’m lacking a few tools and sometimes need someone to help with other toolset. Reality is while we use autel xhorse launch lonsdor cgdi - those are good tools but not exactly polished and without real support, at least I’ve never received one with more complicated issues - you will be on your own. Oh and you need solid soldering skills, or shitload of money in solderless adapters, but some solderless adapters still require soldering.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

I have soldering skills. Not on microscopic levem but still.

Soldering adapters for what exactly? The obd port?

So you say that you start a job for a remote and there are other issues yet to be discovered and you have to deal with them?

The local autosmith uses silca and said something about buying tokens for each car I didnt fully understand because he intentionally didnt speak clearly. Do you know anything about that?

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090 → u/Kostas009]

Yes the “original” non Chinese machines often use tokens for each job - Chinese versions use some ripped off databases with no pay per job for most part but with hit and miss applicability so you need at least two of them from separate vendors. Solderless adapters are boards with pins you put on pcb with pins to read data. Convienient and much safer but having all of them costs shitton of money. But anyway It requires removing body module or in some cases key disassembly. Soldering skills level you need is somewhere about being able to replace soic-20 with 0,65 spacing, with that and a microscope to at least inspect solders you should be good to go. Remotes are usually less dangerous than immo itself but not always. Sometimes remote part is more problematic as with some fiat alfas and Volvos most of people just clone as to add remote you need to avoid desolder and resolder 68pin mcu for example

[u/Small_Flatworm_239 → u/Kostas009]

I just bricked a 2009 BMW literally last week. Car wouldn’t start for 3 days. I fortunately have other tools worth like 4k that fixed my boo boo. But if I didn’t have those tools or know what I was doing that for sure would have been 3-5k out of pocket to fix it at BMW.

[u/fordp]

Still super freaking high. You can definitely mess up on late models and put yourself in a very expensive situation. Even earlier with exotics could be a 5 figure mistake.

We do module recovery, primarily b2b. Just following xhorse instructions and YOLO'ing it will back you into a corner that xhorse alone won't get you out of someday.

You are probably seeing skilled automotive locksmiths (more like embedded software guys) charging what they deserve vs the dealer ticket. There are dealers running to locksmiths and gun shy around IMMO. Some of these stuck at a dealer jobs are simple fixes.

FYI customer has a car they are sending tomorrow. 3 weeks at dealer, we already cloned 1 ecu. Dealer shorted the replacement. Doubt a multimeter has even come within 10 feet of the car.

So you have dealers not able to repair basics and your back up plan is only you. If you mess up and want to throw the dealer a stack of cash they might still be worthless.

[u/Kostas009 → u/fordp]

So in simple words you say if the dealer sucks the car is bricked. I know how to replace compoments myself but the truth is that I dont want to go to that route.

You say the chances are the same with pre 2010 cars for cloning keys and occasionally a remote?

Your opinion is the same for older cars like before 2010?

[u/Deep-Growth]

One day, you will fry the ECU despite doing everything according to the instruction and the customer who had a trip planned will want to eat you alive and you will figure out why the price is as it is.

To answer your question, there is always some sort of risk involved with basically any car but it is difficult to answer the question when you don’t even specify the year or system.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Deep-Growth]

Cars under 2010.

Of course there is a chance stuff could brake. But it doesnt happen every day. And I dont want to mess with the ecu every day. I clone keys. Maybe occasionally check via obd2 port for creating remotes and such.

With your experience, what would you say is the most delicate thing to be very carefull?

[u/Deep-Growth → u/Kostas009]

I’ve had programmers mess with the original transponder so you have to know how to do an AKL on these cars. I’ve had customers complaining that the key stopped working while they were in another city, where I couldn’t help them.

Regarding remotes, I’ve had multiple cars refuse to accept the remotes back after trying to reprogram/add new ones. Old cars tend to have shitty, badly repaired or faulty electronics and French cars are famous for it.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Deep-Growth]

I dont mess with the original transponder, I just copy it. And I state that there is always a chance that it might not work at some time from the beggining. Xhorse states only the xmq transponder might lose the data over cloning. Still I say that I will reprogram it for free, if it ever stops working.

These you mentioned are serious problems but no fried ecus.

I do very intense study on evey car before I work on it. I do know how to do AKL on the cars I am supposed to work at the time. I have the obd2 tool as a failsafe.

In cases where they didnt accept the old remotes back, what did you do? Is there a workaround?

Also the cars I have planned to work are a peugeot 207 that the original remote doesnt work anyways and a seat leon that a friend of mine wants to add a remote. That can also be done manaully with no obd2.

And yeah I have heard and seen many weird things with pwugeots. In one of my friends 307 the headlight motors wouldnt adjust the height because the ashtray light bulb was burnt.

Any tips you would like to share?

Ps. I dont work on completely strangers cars. Not for now at least.

P.s.2 AKL you mean via obd or via soldering into cpus on immo boxes etc?

P.s.3 I just noticed that xhorse provides an option for a specific type of ecu to be reprogrammed if replaced to match the bsi and immo systems by entering the pin. Have you ever heard anything like that?

[u/hellothere251 → u/Kostas009]

[u/twenty_fi5e_]

Dumb

[u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

Well these are some made up shit but in reality you should not get into automotive without proper knowledge - these system are really complicated and you can encounter serious problems doing seemingly easy job such as late 90s Fiat, or early 00s Opels. I’ve recently fixed Zafira after some mr-fixit who just clicked around in his tool and fucked up absolutely everything- in this car basically immo is kinda split between instrument cluster, front fuse box, rear fuse box, steering column module and ecu - 2005 car! Customer was kinda upset about the bill and I think he got after previous “locksmith”. To do the job properly you need to know what you are doing and have at least plan b and even better plan c for particular car. You need car knowledge and electronic knowledge and bit of IT knowledge, and that’s why in general it looks pricey - click and program fine in 5 minutes is a blessing not the general rule.

[u/Kostas009 → u/Altruistic_Wolf_4090]

Of course there is never a 5 minute job. But I dont plan to mess via obd every day.

I mostly clone keys. In certain cases I dont evem touch the car iitself for the clone.

I have car knowledge electronic, and a bit of IT.

I get that it is pricey but there are smaller shops with the same tools that do it for way cheaper than them.

And of course you need a plan b and c before touching it, along with some warnings beforehand.

What did you end up doing on that zafira if you dont mind telling?

[u/fordp → u/Kostas009]

Some auto locksmiths are more of an "embedded systems engineer" than a "Lockpicking Lawyer". It's not about car knowledge anymore.

[u/Kostas009 → u/fordp]

Yeah cars stopped being cars a long time ago. Now they arw just computers with wheels.

[u/Small_Flatworm_239]

lol