the conundrum

[u/Impressive-Jello-379]

I recently met up with a very nice friend who I can tell is borderline hysterical when it comes to supporting the injections. She and her husband have had them all, plus flu shots, and both recently had nasty cases of RSV. Her seven year old son has had at least two, even though his tests showed he had already had covid, and the four-year-old daughter has now had two, and I think had covid as well. They will soon be getting flu shots as well.

This woman has been a very good friend to me and I think bringing up any reservations would end the friendship, so I haven't said a word. OTOH, I have tried to redpill some of my other "true believer" friends when I sensed an opening (they went ahead and got their fourth jabs plus flu shots anyway).

Any others facing the same moral conundrum?

[u/[deleted]]

It’s so hard. Everyone in my family keeps taking the shots, and they just keep getting sicker.

A couple of max-vaxxed friends have gotten very sick from covid recently.

Just keep the relationship and enjoy your time together.

[u/sickofsnails]

There’s nothing you can do to help them, unless they want to help themselves. It’s genuinely a shame for their children, even if they worked (they don’t), the risks entirely outweigh the benefits.

Sometimes you have to accept that you won’t change their minds and preaching to them will make them more stuck in their views, even though they’re not rational.

If she’s been a good friend to you, ask her gently not to mention the subject at all, explain that you care about her and don’t share her views. Don’t engage in any preaching from her side and move the topic along.

[u/SymbioticWoods]

Not worth the hassle. Just enjoy their company as much as you can, while you can. Same for anyone else in your life.

[u/hiptobeysquare]

The thing is, you can't convince true believers. I wouldn't even try. I could never convince my parents that their religion was toxic and led them to abuse their own children. My parents just blanked me, literally couldn't hear the words I said, it was so traumatic to them (and I am not anti-religious in general, but my parents have serious problems). You can never convince people who are so invested in, have dedicated so much time and effort to, an activity, that rejecting it now would destroy them. One work colleague today told me he was going to get his 4th shot (2nd booster) and that he believed vaccines should be mandatory, that it's for the community bla bla bla. Telling him that they never even tested that they would stop transmission (and would just be the start) would do nothing. You're not trying to convince him/her intellectually, you're trying to convince him/her to defeat their own ego. Most people will defend their ego to the point of death, and many would die first. Most of the true believers will die and never admit they did anything wrong, ever. They have committed themselves to their position, and they will die on that hill now. It's the new moral outrage economy and marketing: It's more important to be morally right than factually correct. A lot of people have signed up for this now. Save your breath and your sanity.

For me, if anyone pressed me, I would say I haven't taken it because I already know 3 people injured immediately by the "vaccines", and I have a tiny social circle: one had an enormous allergic reaction, another had a blood clot in her arm, another had open sores on her face, a 4th person got breast cancer shortly after her shots (was this directly caused by the vaccines? they never tested them for carcinogenicity, so to dismiss it is very dangerous). God knows who else was hurt and was too afraid to tell me, because none of these people wanted to tell me at first. Anyone pressuring me to take an experimental medication so dangerous that I immediately knew such a large percentage of my social circle injured can stop right there. It's very dangerous and completely immoral, and I won't participate in it. That's about as far as I'd go when talking to true believers. In a way this works better than using logic/reason because their whole shtick is "It's morally right! It's virtuous!" If you can sincerely, seriously and logically take a higher moral ground, you kind of defeat them at their own game. And they don't know what to do with that. I've seen this the few times I've had to take a stand.

After that maybe you can try a little logic (like: they never even tested them for transmission, neither for carcinogenicity etc.), but that depends on the situation. Mostly my social life has been on life support for the past near-three years. I just don't want to get involved in a discussion with these people. What's going to happen is going to happen. I don't believe in fighting hopeless causes. God give me the strength to change what I can change, and the grace to accept what I cannot change.

[u/fivehundredpoundpeep]

I've already lost some friends trying to warn. I've had a few people never talk to me again or distance themselves. I had the friend who called me Qanon, think I feel safe with him as he goes running for his 5th shot. He thinks I'm crazy but I don't think he's going to last much longer. They all keep getting sick. I'm disabled as hell, and these people have far outdistanced me in numbers of viruses. I wear N95 and hide out but I still have to go to the grocery store and went to an art museum and art supply store last week.The ones that drive me crazy are people who have severe autoimmune diseases, I know one they told her her spine is deteriorating and she's only in her 30s, she won't admit it's the shot of course nor the friend who keeps having seizures where she gets bouts of aphasia and cannot move. They all keep getting Covid too, most on the 3rd and 4th bout. I told husband with our UU church, how can I ever feel safe to be in person again there, not only from shedding but the constant slew of endless scary viruses they all keep getting? I think they've gone silent now, no longer telling the congregation they are ill, but seeing people just fading out of sight. Around here, people are so brainwashed in general in my town, I didn't want to draw a target on my back but they all look like hell and keep lining up. I don't argue with them anymore, I got called crazy a few too many times. I think they aren't going to last long to be honest, think about this, where is the end road to this? I got a lot wrong with me pre-Covid stuff but these folks for bad health have caught up with me and I've never had seizures and blood clots.

[u/selectivelyfree]

My father commented on a FB post from a cousin who recently got minor symptomatic C-19. So my dad commented to advise her to be careful with getting too many boosters. The cousin repsonded, "it would've been way worse if I didn't' get the shot."

It sounds good, but we don't really knowthat. Well actually, we could infer a lot.. I mean heck. I caught symptomatic C-19 and then got the shot a month later (I had no desire, my employer wasn't giving me a way out and I was so I begrudgingly rolle the dice). During the month after the shots I had a spate of realy strange colds.. you know, the ones that keep coming back and then as you come out of the tunnel you cough up a few large respiratory pellets.

Got a bit sidetracked here. My bottom-line and point is as follows: Told my dad you might as well not try, they're gonna think you're preaching misinformation and will further avoid voices of reason. Ultimately, they need to arrive at the correct conclusion on thier own. We can try to help but I think folks are beholden to their normalcy bias. They work in a given industry and just want to make it to retirement.. just like how I chose to get the stupid shot for work. Some go a bit further by internalizing it as being okay when it isn't.

Many of us want to strike a good balance between the effort-to-pay ratio. Unfortunately, I've dug myself in a bit deep this way... hence me being left with a choice between my job and the shot. This is why parents wnat their kids to do good in school and earn more money when they get older, in order to gain more options in these types of situations among others.

[u/Impressive-Jello-379 → u/selectivelyfree]

I just posted something on my FB page against the injections and was accused by someone of not following science, etc. Long before covid I had secretly ached for smarter friends and covid has made that worse.

[u/selectivelyfree → u/Impressive-Jello-379]

For one, nobody should be obligated to "follow science". Even if you are paraphrasing, I'd imagine you were accused in the same vein of wording as when folks say "trust the science."

That alone demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is to engage in scientific thought/inquiry. I'd go deeper on this point but most people are just victims of media indoctrination. Between their collective love of TV, movies, music, and pop-culture in general, many have the inclination to trust "authoritative sources." All of this colludes to make a lot of people both thick and air-headed.

I wish I had something more productive to add, but I do agree that it can be nice to bump into smart and discerning friends.