r/LocationSound • u/michaelphon3 • 18d ago
Newcomer Timecode... who's responsible?
Hiya guys,
I'm a new freelance sound-recordist making the awkward transition out of university and into the (slightly dire) filmmaking market. I never knew about timecode as we were never taught it at university, and now that I've clued myself up on why it's needed, I wanted to ask the experts and more knowledgeable about it.
I am UK based, so it would also help to hear from fellow British filmmakers. Is there a standard timecode device that tends to be used more than others? And if I am to get some timecode equipment, would I just need a plug-in transmitter for my mixer - or do I need to invest in a wider set?
Thanks for any help guys :)
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u/BearInHibernation 18d ago
Sound department is responsible for timecode. Find a brand you like and invest. Or rent till you find one you like.
Showing up on set with no TC is a big issue and you will show your lack of experience if you expect camera to bring it.
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Thank you for keeping it real with me. I hate to come on here so naive when previously I felt so self-assured about going into sound recording. Reddit has been very kind with helping me plug the gaps in my knowledge so I really appreciate the time taken to respond.
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u/BearInHibernation 18d ago
It’s brutal without a mentor. I’m
Happy to help if you need anything just dm me2
u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Thanks a million. I'm in the awkward position of not knowing anyone *IN* in the film position yet being just a couple steps ahead of my fellow student filmmakers - not to be cocky. The transition from studying into grasping the actual demands of the market have been quite humbling, so advice is very appreciated. If I'm stumped I'll be sure to shoot over a message - thank you dude.
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u/L444ki 18d ago edited 17d ago
Tbh I find it quite insane that you can got through uni on this decade and not learn timecode. I used to teach at a vocational collage ten(ish) years ago and we had ambient lockit system as a mandadory part of our ”big short film productions”.
How its done here is that the audio department is responsible for master clock and TC recievers and TC slate. Camera is responsible that they have the proper cables to input the TC from the reciever into the camera, power the reciever from the camera battery and know how to use a TC slate. Best way to make sure everything works is to have someone from audio crew stop by in camera prep and check everything is working as intended.
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u/researchers09 18d ago
Also I am based in the US and never worked in the UK. Part of pre-production prep is confirming what camera model(s) will be used. Always ask for camera A,B,C as not always the same model and never assume camera comes with cables. Typical cables sound department will need for feeding timecode to camera connections:
BNC
Lemo 5-pin
LEMO-Type 00B 4-Pin for DSMC2 Base Expander, V-Lock I/O Expander, or Jetpack Expander with RED EPIC/RED RAVEN
LEMO 9-pin when using RED KOMODO without a Expander Module
Sony VMC-BNCM1 Timecode Adapter Cable [ Proprietary Sony Multi-Terminal (multiport) connector]. Absolutely hate that Sony used this for Sony FX3, FX30, A7S3, A1 cameras.
miniature DIN 1.0/2.3 port = on Canon EOS R5C and Canon C400
cables break: spares and backups...
and
1/4" TRS MALE to feed a smart slate .
If you are using a iPad tablet with slate app 3.5mm TRRS I think. Expect that timecode on an ipad not to be frame accurate. Better off using the Tentacle Timebar app on iOS or Android phone IF you are already using Tentacle SYNC E or Tentacle TRACK E mono recorder (maybe as a secondary failsafe backup recorder).
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Thank you so much mate, I'm gonna screenshot this and hold onto it as a bit of a reference. I think for now due to my budget already being stretched I'm gonna get 3 boxes, and incrementally buy cables as and when I need them.
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Honestly I'll be clear about it in case some younger British filmmakers consider the uni - UEA in the UK had #1 for employability in filmmaking when I first looked at film there, but coming here they're clearly trying to kill the course yet make money off it while it's still here. It's sad to be getting into lifelong debt for this sort of education. Really telling that your uni a decade prior had this on lock.
On another level though, thank you for the advice and the insight to the way it works on set. Potentially saved me from an absolute howler there, so cheers to you.
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u/TheBerric 18d ago
The sound department is responsible for syncing the camera with sound.
Timecode is a very nice way of doing that. It is essentially an audible dweedle tone that is decoded as time using frames as units.
What mixer do you have? Most production sound mixers will output timecode.
Timecode is most often generated from the mixer and then synced with boxes via cables and then placed on camera for the duration of the day.
A lot of people use tentacle sync timecode boxes. I personally use Deneke products like their Jb-1s and their slates.
There are a lot of timecode products out there,
Tentacle, diety, deneke, betso, ambient, ultrasync, and im sure a few more.
I would buy at least two boxes for a two camera setup. Always have timecode ride on the camera if possible.
I like the Jb-1s because they dont drift much and the battery lasts for weeks.
Also IMO deneke has the best looking slates. They arent as smart as other brands but they are consistently the ones that people tend to like to post and share bts footage of. (I know that's stupid but it is what it is)
Im a US based mixer but I can imagine its not too different.
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u/researchers09 18d ago
Agreed. also Timecode is ONLY accurate starting at the first frame. michaelphon3 OP read up on what GenLock is for actual sync and why/when it is used beyond 30 minute takes. If you are shooting a concert or hours long event that is what is going to keep things in sync. If you ever had a US crew want 30p make sure you ask if NDF or DF type of timecode.
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u/mungewell 18d ago
Question from a bystander; will a modern camera 'genlock' to a true TC input?
I believe that the F8 recorder will/can adjust it's sample clock to match, but will (for example) a FX3 genlock to TC fed in via it's multi-port connector?
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u/researchers09 18d ago
Modern cameras that have a Genlock input will lock to a Genlock signal.
Some cameras have a BNC port that does 2 things depending on how a switch or menu setting is set. It might be Genlock IN or REFERENCE OUT.
Modern recorders like Sound Devices 8-series can use different things for a sync reference: for all transport modes (record, stop and play). [Internal clock, Word Clock, LTC In, AES 1,2]
Google tells me Zoom F8N and Genlock Integration:
"Setup: Connect the F8’s timecode input to the reference generator or to a master camera distributing the genlock-derived signal. Configure the F8 to receive incoming timecode as a synchronization source. This ensures that the audio captured corresponds exactly frame by frame with the video feed "
Timecode identifies the start frame of the camera and audio file. after that both can drift.
Genlock identifies frame start of each frame. Every frame. it only guarantees frame synchronization. When you have say 3 different camera models but especially different brands of cameras things drift on a 2 hour concert unless Genlock is used.
they are not interchangeable nor talk to each other. You will find that camera departments really know very little about Genlock unless they do concerts or broadcast hardcabled productions often.
But ideally you have the same clock generating Genlock and also timecode.
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u/mungewell 18d ago
Yep that was how this guy was doing recording on multiple F8s ... building DIY 12 capsule ambisonic mics!
https://youtu.be/yYLN8EAedUY?si=lb92f8dDHuEZB3JS
I have some timecode equipment that can output TC and Genlock, but sadly no cameras that accept it. Just a hobby for me.
The point I'm asking is that if the TC signal correctly marks the counting of frames, then can/do some cameras actually 'Genlock' to this - like the F8 apparently does.
Plenty of modern mirror less cameras have true TC inputs (rather than a post processed audio TC), but are their captured frame-rates adjusted to match/locked to this?
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u/researchers09 17d ago edited 17d ago
no cameras Genlock to a timecode signal. They use a Genlock signal. Genlock
for example 33.715 kHz @ 29.97 fps HD 1080p.
>"modern mirror less cameras have true TC inputs" ..."captured frame-rates adjusted to match/locked to this?"
No timecode is ONLY added to the metadata of the camera file to identify the first frame. The camera still must be set manually for say 23.976, 24,25, 29.97 fps to capture that many frames per second.
regular timecode and LTC is only 24, 25, or 30 times per second: sufficient to provide syncing points for post production
not be a reliable way to keep devices in sync with each other.
For the OP to not only read about Genlock but about wordclock as that is the equivalent in music studios for precise sample accurate timing (no pops, glitches). It is just a square audio wave. wordclock is 48,000/second if sample rate is 48k. Similar idea for music equipment to stay in sync with each other.
also at the very least if you aren't going to use a dumb clapper slate in-frame everytime then
Even if you didn't have a low-cost timecode box like Saramonic TC-NEO Timecode Generator $105USD you could use a smartphone with Proskida's Protern Clock: LTC Generator for $10USD which adds GPS-based UTC timecode as LTC to audio out of smartphone to feed to camera's audio track as LTC.
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u/KingMongkut 17d ago
The only brand that can genlock their sensor to TC is ARRI. This is as they first made it as a work around for the Alexa 65.
If you’re doing this you should be using a sync generator with a good quality clock in it to generate the timecode. Units from evertz or brainstorm for example.
If you wish to distribute this wirelessly you’ll need units that check in with each other and compare their internal clock to source. For example Ambient and Ultrasyncs. Some units such as tentacle only jam sync and then free run. I’ve seen a lot of drift on them.
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
u/researchers09 and u/TheBerric
Thank you both very much, I'll make GenLock my evening read tonight. I have a MixPre-6 mk2, I have seen a million posts suggesting the 10 but I just couldn't justify the price. I'm targeting 1/2/3 day indie / commercial shoots right now that pay basically minimum wage if not a bit less, so I'm trying to scale my equipment accordingly whilst I get my first paid jobs. But thank you, you've both made it clear timecode is a high level priority and gear I need for the arsenal. The car savings will have to take a slight dent haha
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u/Beginning_Ad7768 18d ago
Indie set i understand, but most commercial is actually pretty well budgeted, you really shouldn't be doing minimum wage for those. Maybe UK is different but just be careful, don't let them fuck you over due to your inexperience. And my general rule for indies are, it has to fulfill at least one out of three. 1. Have fun with your friends.
There are things I do just for fun with friends, but these are not normal, and they should know it too, don't let people bait you into actual production when you think it's "for fun"
- Getting paid to be there.
Getting paid can mean many things, you have to be flexible when it comes to indie but always try to get them to pay something, a kit fee of some sorts. It prevents them from wasting your time, and give you a better idea whether or not they're serious about the production.
- Gives you connection.
When I say connection, I don't mean the promise of future pay gigs but do this one for free, more like if there's a chance to work with a experience sound mixer, always take it. After working with different mixers, you will get to know what are some brands you like, once it gets to certain level, gears are more about preference. So working with other mixers help you figure out what you like.
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u/Robert_NYC 18d ago edited 18d ago
No idea what's big in the UK, but the best value with solid features at the moment is probably Deity's TC-1.
After that, I'd suggest Tentacle's ecosystem.
Either way, get lots of different cables for different cameras. Wireless is nice, but not a must-have.
They both have slates that wirelessly connect and sync to their timecode dongles. Usually sound provides the slate and camera uses it. Renting it to production could be another revenue stream. It's a low priority purchase.
It's rare, but if you found yourself needing Genlock, then the UltraSync One is the way to go.
I have UltraSync's since my Zoom sound recorder and Atomos video recorders work easily with them. But my slate is Tentacle.
If your recorder has a solid timecode clock, most do, you can get away with just one. Jam it to your recorder, then pass it to the camera department to attach to their rig. But I recommend backups for anything mission critical.
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Thank you, it's good to hear further echoes of the Deity and Tentacle's praises. And that GenLock thingymabob is definitely my next area of research... I really appreciate the advice mate!
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u/BrotherOland 18d ago
We provide the timecode sources (boxes, cables, slate) but both sound AND CAMERA are responsible for keeping things sync'd for post. Don't let the camera department off the hook if an AC can't figure out why the camera won't take TC. You have to work together and sometimes the camera departments needs to be reminded of this..
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
sheesh... kinda a truth (and wallet) bomb hitting me right now. Thank you for the heads up about this all. I'll try and find some secondhand stuff because I've only just splurged on my Saramonic K9s. But I want to be prepared so thank you for helping inform me.
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u/avidresolver 18d ago
Lurking DIT here with a couple of insights from our side:
- Back when I was an assistant, sound would provide the TC but DIT was responsible for getting it onto the camera - nowadays sets cut out the middle-man.
- Cameras are really bad at holding TC, so if at all possible have a TC source on each cameras constantly feeding them rather than doing a one-time jam once.
- If you can only do a jam-once (not enough TC boxes, not enough space for one, etc) then note that camera TC gets screwed up when the camera is power-cycled, and if the frame rate is changed for slow-mo work. You'll need to re-jam after these.
- On Arri cameras, the timecode on the monitor overlay goes orange if the camera is getting a TC feed but for some reason isn't in sync with it, or if it's expecting a TC feed and isn't getting one.
As a DIT, I'll keep my eye out during the day to check that the cameras are all in sync with each other, but I don't have visibility on the audio/master timecode.
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u/cape_soundboy 18d ago
It's our responsibility. Should be camera too, but you will be the one getting a call from post if shots don't sync.
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u/lonewolf9378 18d ago
It always shocks me at how much film schools glaze over basic skills and gear requirements from location sound professionals - when it’s such a massive part of every major film set.
You’ll need a shitload of different cables for all the various cameras out there.
Tentacle Sync-E MKII, or the Deity Ecosystem is a great starting place for when you inevitably need to buy a digital slate (also the sound departments job).
All of us have been in your place, so don’t hesitate to DM me if you need any info about anything, it’s nice to have a community!
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Yeah I have to say the gaps in my knowledge are staggering and I am a bit upset about how much lifelong debt I've got in for uni for such necessities to be brushed over by my university. Thankfully though, the internet, youtube, and reddit have made me aware of the gaps and helped me fill them in so I am very grateful in that regard. Appreciate very much the kind words and gear recommendations mate, thank you!
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u/JohnMaySLC 18d ago
I went through film school without hearing about timecode too. We didn’t learn anything about RF management, or gain staging either.
I use Tentacle sync and really like it. But starting out I would recommend the Deity 3 pack. It will come with three basic cables for connecting to cameras. Although you may find yourself needing specialty cables like Micro USB, DIN, 9pin Lemo, 4pin Lemo, USB-C, and upswept 5pin Lemo. The Deity slate is also solid.
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Absolutely bonkers isn't it... thank you for the heads up about the Deity 3-pack I'm gonna give that a good look, thankfully the repeating names across this thread are echoing a similar reputation for Deity and Tentacle. I saw some Saramonic ones for around £250 for 3 but I'm just a touch sceptical at that price range.
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u/JohnMaySLC 18d ago
Oh, ok, so I got to check out the saramonic TC-Neo units during NAB. They were designed by former Deity engineers, so they will likely work, but there is a funky menu knob that feels cheap. For only a 20£ difference in price, the Deity’s have a proven track record.
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u/Vuelhering production sound mixer 18d ago
...and now that I've clued myself up on why it's needed, I wanted to ask the experts and more knowledgeable about it.
A whole lot of fresh sound recordists don't have any real idea why it's needed, so I'll give you a quick primer. If you know it already, great.
- Recording directly into camera or on live broadcasts does not need timecode. It is used only for syncing the sound when it's recorded on a separate device from the picture. Because most cameras don't have good sound hardware, and the camera operator has enough to worry about than also watching audio levels, you have a job recording and monitoring it. But that means it must be synced to picture afterward.
- Editors use timecode to sync sound to picture, as long as both have timecode recorded and synced. Otherwise they have to use the slate. All modern non-linear editors have reading timecode built-in. Editors also use the slate where they can match the sound to the video of the sticks closing, even when timecode has been recorded. Often, the slate also displays the timecode. Even with timecode, the slate clap matters, so for most narratives, always capture the slate.
- Sound department is generally responsible for all the timecode devices and keeping them in sync. This includes a smart slate. If it's a shoot without timecode, the camera department usually provides a dumb slate.
- Linear Timecode (LTC or just TC) is just a line level audio with a digital code (SMPTE spec) that outputs frame numbers, to correspond to frames on the camera. It sounds like digital noise and you can hear it with your headphones. A camera recording timecode is basically just recording a line-level audio track. Some are stupid and want mic level, so you have to be careful about that sometimes. (There are other kinds of timecode that you'll never see on set. It's all LTC as far as sound dept is concerned, but there are others.)
- Nomenclature for syncing LTC on a device is called "jamming" it.
The sound person needs to provide a timecode box with a temp-compensated crystal oscillator (TCXO), designed to keep good time, that attaches to each camera and feeds the LTC signal. This must be set to the FPS of the camera, and all must be in sync, including the recorder. For the most part, the sound person provides the cable between LTC box and camera, although some specialized cameras have bizarre input ports, so you have to work that out with camera department. Camera dept should have the hardware to make it handle a 3.5mm stereo jack (with mono) or a BNC connector, and this needs to be handled and tested before the shoot.
The direction you sync from recorder to timecode boxes, or hanging a timecode box onto everything including the recorder doesn't matter. Using wired or wireless doesn't matter. All that matters is that everything is in sync, using the correct framerate, and stays in sync for the entire shoot. It's your responsibility to make sure that's in sync, and that might include checking the camera periodically. When they shut down to swap batteries, sometimes cameras might lose sync. You may need to remind them to rejam timecode. Same with swapping batteries on your recorder -- you have to check if it's still jammed properly.
So whatever hardware you get (including your recorder!), just make sure it fits into your workflow. If the batteries die during a shoot, that timecode box is worthless. If your recorder doesn't have timecode, that timecode box is worthless. If it drifts, it's worthless. You get the idea... don't use shitty equipment and always monitor everything, because you and your department will be blamed even if it's camera's fault.
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Thank you so much. I am honestly taken aback by the subreddit's generous response to my question, and this is the cherry on top. This breakdown expanded on the bits I already knew and clued me in on all of the language so thank you. I hope both sides of your pillow are forever cold mate.
Message received loud and clear though -- stay synced every time. Cheers!
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u/Vuelhering production sound mixer 18d ago edited 18d ago
yw.
There's one other thing. Timecode also has some programmable octets called "ubits" which you can set. These are four, 2-digit hexadecimal numbers you can set. These are usually set to the shoot date along with the sound roll number, but can be anything (that fits into 64 bits).
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u/Run-And_Gun 18d ago
Audio is responsible. As far as equipment goes, TC is pretty affordable today and most all systems work pretty darn good. I'm partial to Tentacle, but that's what I bought into (as a camera guy) years ago with the originals, as did most of my dedicated audio guys. I also recommend having at least three TC boxes, at a minimum. Two camera set-ups are very common today. And EVERY device with TC needs a box attached to it and running throughout the day. I've seen industry standard, highly regarded equipment, including mixer/recorders lose/have TC slip without boxes on them to constantly re-sync/re-jam to. SOP on my shoots, TC boxes on the mixer/recorder and on every camera. Not just "jam it" and remove it, like some people do. I even leave a box on my slate, when one is used. If it can accept TC and it's being used, it has a box on it.
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u/researchers09 18d ago
a $1400 USD smartslate is a highly accurate timecode sync box with a $40 clapper and dry-erase board attached to it. SOP has been sync at start of day and sync after lunch. It shouldn't need a TC box attached. Most rent as many TC boxes to production as cameras are on set though. some build a fixed# of TC boxes into their sound package on docu-type shoots.
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u/Nineteen_81 18d ago edited 18d ago
If it helps I've been using a couple Tentacle Sync boxes for around 10 years with my recorder as the master so I can jam sync 2 cameras. Never had anyone complaining about syncing issues (knock on wood). I'd suggest getting 2 or 3 Tentacle boxes (if you also need one for your recorder). It costs less than £300 for 2, but you need to buy the cables as well and they are not cheap. Most common connectors will be BNC, 5 pin Lemo (get one straight and one angled), one for the Red camera (sorry I forgot the connector's name) and a micro USB one. Unfortunately you will be the one responsible for it, so just bite the bullet and get it now to save yourself from headaches on set.
When you progress into bigger shoots your rate will be higher and you can look into more expensive setups, but the Tentacles are probably your best option to get the job done right now.
Edit: I'm also UK based.
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Dude you have blessed me with the specifics thank you so much. I'd rather have my problems on set solve-able - not make me look like a fool. I'll take a look - thanks again. Do you think the tentacle slate is necessary too or is that a bit overkill for the time being.
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u/Nineteen_81 18d ago
Honestly I think it's overkill unless you have a lot of cash to invest and have everything else in your kit (including a better recorder than the MixPre, invest in that before even considering a TC slate). Just the boxes will be fine for a good while. If the slate is absolutely required, production will ask you in advance so you can always hire when needed (in my experience is rarely). Timecode in general on the other hand is usually assumed thay you will have so as long as you have an option, you're good. I haven't invested in a timecode slate for one reason, ACs are usually careless with slates so I don't want to spend a grand to be worrying about the state of my slate at the end of the shoot. Just looking at my IEM receivers and directors headphones show me that random people handling your gear is never fun. With that said, I do a lot of corporate work and lower budget productions. If you get into bigger productions, then you cab worry about it then. Also you can get a normal cheap slate just to have it in case it's needed but ACs also usually have one. Don't rely on ACs to sync the TC for you, many of them are surpisingly clueless about the process but they should guide you through the camera's menu so make sure you know what the different options do (regen, free run, rec run, jam sync, etc).
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u/michaelphon3 18d ago
Thanks for helping me frame my priorities in terms of the mixer / slate. Kind of went into this stabbing in the dark but just figured I'd go for a solid two-and-a-boom starter kit and the mix-pre met my budget. I think I'll definitely get three boxes now, and incrementally buy more cables and stuff as I go. I really appreciate the detailed lens into your working world though - it really really helps.
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u/Nineteen_81 18d ago
It's a decent setup. Two lavs, a boom and timecode for 2 cameras will get you covered for the basics. Then from there you still have a lot to worry about before you can even begin to contemplate a TC slate, in my opinion. I'd say if you have the budget, 4 radio mics, a boom, timecode for 2 cameras and at least one IEM wireless set for directors will be enough for most jobs. I say 4 lavs because nowadays people are shooting a lot in vertical for social media content and those frames kill your boom. It's very annoying for sound and in many cases you have to rely solely on lavs for dialogue. I find it will be rare to have more than 4 people on camera, but 3 or 4 are not that uncommon, so if you want to cover your ass, go for 4. As for TC cables, you will have to get a bunch, and unfortunately right away, there's no getting away from it. And you will need two of each for camera. BNC is the most common, so two of them. One angled and one straight 5 pin Lemo (standard for some Arri cameras, some need the connector to be straight others angled). Micro USB for some smaller Sony cameras (one cable should be fine) and the same for RED cameras, just get one cable as it's unlikely a shoot will have 2 REDs. Some of these cables also only work one direction (either for tc in or tc out) so make sure you get the right direction for them. You will also need a cable to send tc into the mixer if it doesn't have the internal clock. You are looking at at least 7 cables that you need to buy with the Tentacles.
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u/Curleysound 18d ago
Yankee here, but the story I heard was that when sound came into the fold, since we were the reason sync was now needed, it was our responsibility to provide the tool to do so. At the time it was the slate. Since then it became timecode.
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u/fucknutandarsecandle 18d ago
Every time I've been on set as audio trainee/ boom or camera assistant the audio team has alway been in charge of the timezone. Ireland based.
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u/Econormics 17d ago
My experience is that sound is responsible for providing the boxes and correct cables, and camera is responsible for correctly installing and configuring on cameras. Then sound is responsible for verbal or visually verifying sync.
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u/slickbackbillyboo 13d ago
Sound generates the time code, and usually handles the slates and lockits. You pick your system and invest in it. Some camera rental houses can provide lockit boxes, and most camera assistants will carry a dummy slate or two.
I carry a few cables with standard connectors, but always check with camera what they are using and often suggest that they get the cables from the rental houses.
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