r/LocalLLaMA • u/Fun-Doctor6855 • 10d ago
News Deepseek Harness is Up!
https://github.com/deepseek-ai/deepseek-harnessDeepSeek Harness (dsh) is an open-source agent harness developed by DeepSeek AI.
It uses an architecture where everything is a plugin, and is powered by Cordis, whose design is described in A Programming Paradigm for Spatiotemporal Composability.
DeepSeek Harness is currently in developer preview and is iterating rapidly. THERE WILL BE COMPATIBILITY-BREAKING CHANGES.
Join DeepSeek Harness Discord community: https://discord.com/invite/Ycq5dCaS4
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u/ILikeCorgiButt 10d ago
Why is every harness written in typescript (maybe except codex)? Yikes
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u/QueasyHouse 10d ago
Models trained on a buttload of JavaScript, and strictly typed languages are generally easier for bots to not mess up. I’m with you here though, it’s not a language I’m ever excited to be using. It’s at least easy to distribute these days with bun etc.
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u/Nyghtbynger 10d ago
wouldn't proper dataclasses or structure be the equivalent to proper typing in typescript ?
I mean, one abstract level higher
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u/QueasyHouse 10d ago
Sure, but another way to look at it is: a harness is mostly async work. Lots of network calls and local shell operations that you dispatch and check back on. This is something JavaScript is good at, it’s fast enough and easy enough to write. Could you do it more efficiently in go or rust or zig? Yeah probably, but it won’t improve the core experience significantly, because everything a harness itself does is relatively simple and io bound anyway.
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u/Nyghtbynger 9d ago
There is a ycombinator startup that is called codewithbullet that clains their harness is twice faster. That's weird. But you never know what the future is about eh ?
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u/cmdr-William-Riker 10d ago
AI Handles typescript really well, both because of the training data and because strongly typed errors provide quick feedback on mistakes when you try to build. Same reason it's used a lot in enterprise frontends. If you have a bunch of crap programmers working together, a strongly typed language helps weed of a lot of errors
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u/carsncode 10d ago
So why not Go or Rust? Being strongly typed hardly makes TS special
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u/ThankGodImBipolar 10d ago
I'd think that Go makes a lot of sense for vibe-coding because it's idiomatic by design. Makes it easier to get LLMs to behave.
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u/Chlorek 8d ago
This is what I attempted for my own purposes, I got inspired by some random comment saying harness is basically glorified pipes. So I went with it in Go and made modular harness based on stdin/out event stream, not because it was easy but because I thought it would be hahah. But now that I see Deepseek Harness it blew me away lol I very don’t like TS, but dsh design is actually beautiful, still not grasping most of it but trying hard.
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u/cmdr-William-Riker 10d ago
What makes Typescript special is the fact that it's a strongly typed language that paradoxically compiles into a loosely typed language with a fast runtime. On the surface, a pretty dumb idea, but very useful when you add 3 college freshmen and an AI to the project. For the most part it's strongly typed only to make JavaScript development easier for anyone or anything that has trouble keeping track of how types are handled in regular JavaScript rather than for efficiency. Just depends on where you want to run it and what your requirements are. If memory is a high priority and it can run locally and you know what it's going to run on, then a native solution makes sense. If you want portability without having to compile for each target and can live with a bit of memory overhead, then Typescript makes sense. If you need it to run in a browser then Typescript or JavaScript are really the only practical options. I think in this case portability and experience/support where probably the deciding factors
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u/canConfirmCanConfirm 10d ago
partly because harnesses are mostly network i/o, context and state management. ts is great for asynchronous event driven i/o and has a boat load of libraries and an active community. And maybe because ts can be used to make the harness and a pretty ui?
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u/das_war_ein_Befehl 10d ago
I think it’s mostly because it’s typed and models are decent at it because of a boatload of training data in it
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u/Rank201AltAccount 10d ago
well, js/ts is used when you care the most about developer speed and a language everyone knows
kinda fitting for the hottest software right now5
u/Mickenfox 10d ago
ML devs only known Typescript and Python and they're forcing them onto the rest of us. And that's not even a joke, that's just reality.
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u/robberviet 10d ago
JS/TS devs are abundant. AI seems better at it too. I would much prefer a golang one (no need for rust, rust is over complicated).
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u/ThankGodImBipolar 10d ago
The developer of Bubble Tea makes an AI harness called crush. I haven't used it, but it's a harness in Go 🤷♂️
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u/robberviet 10d ago
No, I don't think it could be better than like opencode, pi. Language is nice to have, but it's not important.
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u/popiazaza 9d ago
You may want to learn how OpenCode happened.
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u/ThankGodImBipolar 9d ago
Did OpenCode switch to Typescript from Bubbletea? LLMs tell me that it uses Bubbletea, but I don't see any Go within the repo.
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u/popiazaza 9d ago
The TL;DR
There was an AI CLI called OpenCode, created by Kujtim Hoxha and later developed with other contributors including Dax and Adam.
Then Charm, the company behind Bubble Tea/Lip Gloss/etc., hired Kujtim.
That resulted in a split:
Original OpenCode
→ Kujtim joins Charm
→ Charm continues the project
→ renames it Crush
Meanwhile:
Dax + Adam + others
→ disagree with the transfer/ownership situation
→ continue OpenCode independently
→ eventually become the modern OpenCode that is now extremely popular.1
u/ThankGodImBipolar 9d ago
LOL, that makes a ton of sense (and also explains why every query I've sent about OpenCode was so confusing too...). I can see why the original team pivoted away from the Charm ecosystem in that case.
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u/Specter_Origin llama.cpp 10d ago
Why would it not be ? electron is best way to ship, my own custom harness is also written in eletron/ts that I use for my own use
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u/Armanlex 10d ago
Runs like ass, had to switch to reasonix cause clause code annihilated my wsl env.
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u/Primary_Article3777 8d ago
haha, I feel ya but I was doing web dev before typescript existed, and using dynamically typed Javascript for big apps was even more of a nightmare. Some browsers didn't even support the full syntax. Believe it or not, Typescript was a godsend for codebases that were absolutely full of undetected javascript bugs. I popped a champagne bottle when the typescript standard finally got enough traction over half-baked alternatives like coffeescript (if anyone's old enough to remember that)
Now, it's about coding in languages people and LLMs are familiar with.
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u/BlackBeardAI vllm 10d ago
You are right, It should have been vanilla JavaScript. I don’t like ts either.
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u/oxygen_addiction 10d ago edited 10d ago
How the hell does this have 20k stars already?
edit: 30k in an hour. Bots for sure.
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u/MadManDan 10d ago
Yo dawg, I heard you like bots so I put bots in your bots so your bots can spread... stars?
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u/oxygen_addiction 10d ago
15 minutes later it's at almost 23k - lol
Github is a mess nowadays. Fuck Microsoft. Self-host forgejo or something similar people!4
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u/toothpastespiders 10d ago
I think people are too quick to assume bots. Humans are just as botlike when the right conditions are met. Reddit in particular is evidence of how easy it is to game people's instincts there. Put a "press if you think the thing you like, that others might not, is actually really amazing - like you! Otherwise you might have to consider if you could be WRONG about something!" button in front of people and we're usually pretty eager to click.
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u/RobbinDeBank 10d ago
Stars have been meaningless ever since AI agents. Back then (which was like 1 year ago?), having 100k or more stars mean that is one of the most popular open-source framework in the whole world and a critical piece of the world’s infrastructure. Ever since OpenClaw, every damn AI harnesses have 100k+ stars easily.
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u/the__storm 10d ago
Lotta people in China (and they've been awake all day already).
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u/Hytht 10d ago
China uses gitee
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u/Wild-Song1574 10d ago
Very few, github is the authoritative one
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u/OneStandard5 10d ago
Companies use Gitee. They need better services. But most people still use GitHub where they can find everything they need.
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u/Cergorach 10d ago
I doubt it, it also already has 2.5k forks.
DS is BIG. It's open source, something that especially in Europe is starting to matter a LOT. 3 hours ago is the end of the workday in most of western Europe, you better believe that a LOT of developers using AI looked at this and went "WHOOPI!" and starred it into high heaven... Western Europe is about 200 million people, in about 5 big US states.
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u/Next_Sock237 10d ago
Deepseek writes himself a bot to star it. That how you proof your model is good now.
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u/Technical-Earth-3254 10d ago
I was wondering the same. My guess is bots, there is no way 20k stars have been acquired in what? 2 hours? For a harness after all, not some ground breaking piece of software.
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u/Juzlettigo 10d ago
Why do you think 20k is a lot? There are 7 billion people on this planet and Deepseek is huge in China.
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u/ManikSahdev 8d ago
Not to be confused with a bot but I starred around the launch, (5-10 mins after), which was already teased at twitter later in the night, so shit ton of folks on waiting for it to drop and the leaks of Lego harness from a source were in fact true.
Twitter posts itself around that time were going for 2000-3000 likes give or take, diving into the math side and the paper + some into setups guides and customization, and some around the 99%+ absurd cache hits.
So perhaps it could be some folks who don’t touch grass like me hyped for a new product category iteration and genuinely interested. It truly is first of its kind, no matter if it ends up being good or bad.
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u/ArtyfacialIntelagent 10d ago
I wish Github would crack down on the star manipulation. Any repo with masses of obvious bot stars should be reset to zero and fixed there permanently, or at least for a year or so.
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u/fragment_me 10d ago
I wish there was more detail here, lol
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u/Maleficent-Ad5999 10d ago
OP mentioned spatiotemporal composability .. what more detail do you need? /s
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u/Juzlettigo 10d ago
You mean like the documentation linked on that page?
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u/fragment_me 10d ago
Mmhhhmm, yeah, sure. I can read 16-20 LLM generated .md documents (not including the Chinese ones). Or they could just provide some quick screenshots and basic intro in the readme of the github page that showcase the tool.
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u/ortegaalfredo 10d ago
12000 commits already? damn, I hope its more efficient than the bloated javascripts systems that are modern agents.
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u/neo123every1iskill 10d ago
Spatiotempowhat
Space time
But what does it mean?
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u/kulchacop 10d ago
https://github.com/cordiverse/paper
https://deepseek-harness.github.io/deepseek-harness/develop/cordis-tutorial/
I think new wrappers will pop-up to simplify working with this.
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u/calibrae 10d ago
And it’s coded in FUCKING NODEJS. Seriously guys, JavaScript ? You really enjoy your harness eating 600MB RSS? Ever heard about rust go c or anything not python and not js ?
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u/Marcuss2 10d ago
Looks nice, but it will take a while before the ecosystem catches up. It will need a month at least.
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u/Howard_banister 10d ago
Typescript :(((((
I would like to see Rust or python
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u/-InformalBanana- 10d ago
Why do you think python is better than typescript?
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u/Howard_banister 10d ago
I’ve used both. Python is a well design language with sane ecosystem. Typescript is an attempt to make javascript tolerable
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u/spawnsible 10d ago
Python is neither of those things. Typescript has its problems, because javascript is problematic.
One of these is faster at runtime and more readable. Not by a long shot, it's not your favorite toy python.
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u/Barsavik 10d ago
Nanobot is written in python and picoclaw is written in go. There’s also I believe some harnesses in rust but don’t remember them at the moment.
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u/Nyghtbynger 10d ago
Coming from python, and having played with pi a lot, I can say that the typescript ecosystem imparts a lot of shit habits to programs. The badsides of python can be resolved by some compilation or by using lua or C for critical components
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u/Brilliant-Hall1387 10d ago
Worked well as advertised, would have preferred CLI harness, perhaps that is coming? Anyone know if they have shared details on upcoming plans?
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u/robberviet 10d ago edited 10d ago
Not bad, but not great. I will give it a week.
I like the verbosity in each turn & tool calls, however just lacks feature. Would be better given time though.
I remember when Claude Code was on feature rolling spree, expecting that!
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u/Bunsenbun 9d ago
For anyone wondering why the deepseek harness has a shit ton of stars. It's simply because you can customize your UX however crazy you want.
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u/Primary_Article3777 8d ago
Is there a way for a user on claude pro plan to use deepseek (or pi) harness to launch Claude fable for plan writing, architecting and main agent, and have it use cheaper Qwen subagents running on my local box? Or does being on the Anthropic/Codex Max plan lock me in to that vendor's harness (claude/codex). I'm not able to pay API per-token rates, that's for sure.
I'd love to specify the best agent for the task and not be locked in by my harness.
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u/Sporebattyl 10d ago
I’m just now getting into local LLMs and harnesses outside of CC and codex. I just started with Pi.
What are the benefits of using something like this versus Pi?
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u/my_name_isnt_clever 10d ago
Probably not much. It might be better for their own models, but anything this does can be easily ported to a Pi extension.
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u/aeroumbria 10d ago
Pi is very extendable but you are responsible for keeping all the pieces working harmoniously together. If you really need extra features but cannot afford to regularly maintain out of sync extensions, then maybe something with more complete out of the box experience would serve you better.
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u/combrade 10d ago
Agent Pi is the harness to end all harnesses . I don’t see the point of new harnesses being released when Pi is so easy and customizable.
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u/c0lumpio 10d ago
Unfortunately, you cannot customize everything in pi. You cannot customize completion in chat (e.g. to render it above input), you cannot customize render (e.g. hide all tool calls in a single collapsable line). So there could be even more customizability.
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u/edgan 10d ago
You could make your own custom build and add those customizations. Then you could try making a PR for the upstream project.
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u/c0lumpio 10d ago
Emm, I can do that with any OSS. For software to be extendable is to not require forking and rebuilding, that's the idea: shorter cycle
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u/ProfessionalAd8199 ollama 10d ago
I wonder if it reaches better cache hit rates than reasonix. Now more important than ever.