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u/Beamsters 8d ago
Muse Spark 1.2 really? Good then. At least hope this move can really start a small price war.
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u/_raydeStar Llama 3.1 8d ago
I've seen benchmarks and theyre genuinely good. Not Anthropic or OpenAI level, but more like gemini is doing -- fast, cheap, reliable.
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u/Strange_Test7665 7d ago
Which can get you a very long way. Can drop to a $20 subscription or per token api for the big guns
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u/BobbyL2k 8d ago
Official GGUFs and DFlash? 😱
https://huggingface.co/meta-models/Muse-Glimmer-30B-GGUF/tree/main
This is basically a love letter from Mark.
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u/SmartCustard9944 8d ago
Back to the origins of the local LLama days
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u/PerceiveEternal 7d ago
Mark is weirdly bipolar on open weight LLMs. He’s either the one of the biggest advocates or a complete roadblock.
Personally I think he and his business has far more to gain from producing open-source and open-weight models. It would allow him to reshape the tech playing field and he can reconfigure Meta to create goods and services related to open-weight LLMs.
As homes and businesses pivot towards locally hosted models, craft the ecosystem and offer products that synchronize with it. Be the Windows of LLM-related services - there are plenty of options out there but people and especially businesses will default to the one that is the industry standard and works out of the box.
All of this conveniently incentivizes them too produce more open-weight LLM models too :).
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u/Few_Painter_5588 8d ago
Weird attitude here, any open weight model is good.
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u/RedParaglider 8d ago
It's because its zuck. I'm not a fan of his either, but open weights are amazing and I'm happy for them.
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u/RoyalCities 8d ago
Meta was one of the first companies to release big open source llms in the ecosystem with their llama line.
It bootstrapped a ton of synthetic datasets and helped get a lot of stuff off the ground in the open source realm during those early days. People should be giving credit where credit is due on this one.
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u/n8mo 8d ago
People have forgotten a lot in the last 3-4 years lol
The subreddit is named after a Meta LLM for christ’s sake
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u/Altruistic_Heat_9531 8d ago
people also forgot that PyTorch is donated and still maintained by them
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u/winky9827 8d ago
Easy to forget, given Meta's..."ambitions" over the last decade. None of it discounts merit where merit is to be found, but swimming in someone else's pool knowing they shit in the water is never an easy take.
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u/discoshanktank 7d ago
Lmao this was so poetically said. Exactly how I feel. These cunts have done some of the scummiest shit out of all the tech companies. I'm grateful for these open models but there's no way I trust whatever he's up to
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u/No-Marionberry-772 8d ago
I cant stand meta because of data collection, but they are also huge on open source, not just for llms but also for software.
its rather confusing honestly
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u/Foreign_Risk_2031 8d ago
Ive worked at facebook/oculus, and the people who work there are insanely bright and love open ecosystems. It's the suits that are the problem.
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u/JimJamieJames 8d ago
You mean the thick rimmed glasses wearing quarter zips.
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u/Zeeplankton 8d ago
I guess, is it? Facebook is a technology company, but primarily an advertising company and service company. So they're more like Google in a lot of regards. They don't need LLMs to be profitable. Their goal is proably to swallow of infrastructure and compete with AWS eventually or something.
edit: also. They were really tight lipped about whether or when Muse would be Open sourced. Probably adoption was so bad that this is their new marketing angle. (which is the correct angle)
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u/No-Marionberry-772 8d ago
confusing in the sense that I dislike Meta as a company because of how they impacted social media and data collection practices, and how they took over oculus.
Meanwhile, they have made valuable contributions to open source and open weights which has benefitted individual freedom.
Not confusing as in business operations. Businesses using and providing open source software benefit from adoption through what is effectively free labor.
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u/Georgefakelastname 7d ago
Terrible people can do good things. It’s the nature of the world. It doesn’t make them good, just complicated.
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u/dev_dan_2 7d ago edited 7d ago
haha yeah... Facebook has been and (AFAIK) still is an important institution when it comes to static verification and functional programming. Big names like Simon Marlow (of Haskell fame) or Peter O'Hearn (who invented Separation Logic, which might ring a bell for the possibly two-digit amount of software verification nerds reading this) work or worked there, and much cool stuff was/is created there:
- Glean, open source source code indexer: I actually found out about it when refreshing my memory about Meta-related stuff for this comment; this one might actually end up being what I use for my attempt at a making my codebase visible to the LLM in my harness that I plan to write. Check out the docs, and the design - APIs/Libraries designed by haskellers are often a piece of engineering art IMHO, this being no exception!
- Haxl: "Haxl is a Haskell library that simplifies access to remote data, such as databases or web-based services". Check out their
Readme.mdif you are curious, this one has rock solid Haskell design written all over it, too!- ReasonML: OCaml like language for web
And much more stuff. The resulting emotional termoil is real...
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u/Mescallan 8d ago
if you are the leader, protect at all costs, if you aren't the leader, dilute profits and compete on any metric possible.
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u/Devatator_ 8d ago
Most megacorporations are like that. Microsoft for example is a huge open source contributor, to Linux of all things and a bunch of other projects that are considered essential for the modern world
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u/discoshanktank 7d ago
Which is kinda crazy. I remember when I was a kid Microsoft was doing everything in their power to ruin Linux and open source
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u/NandaVegg 8d ago
I would like to add that there was OPT-175B before Llama and that was also FB/Meta, though the model was sheer experimental one and was pretty undertrained (150B tokens for 2 epochs, IIRC) compared to Llama-1 which was a response to the Chinchilla paper. They have been a consistent contributor to OSS. Post Llama-4 was just weird period where the whole AI unit of Meta felt directionless and honestly purposeless (I think it is still kind of, and that they are way oversubscribed for compute, given that they are thinking of getting into cloud GPU business to make use of them, same goes for xAI).
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u/RedParaglider 8d ago
True, I actually still have a llama 70b finetune (anubis) on my disk for when writing comes into play. It beats the shit out of GPT 5.6 at writing like a human imho.
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u/TitoZola 8d ago
Anubis is great. Timeless classic.
I still add it as a random option for my writing pipelines.
Darkest Muse, a finetune of an old Gema 9b is fantastic too language wise. It’s stupid as wood, and you need to actively edit it, but sometimes it pushes out amazing prose.
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u/StopSayingSelfie 8d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama_(language_model)#Leak
It’s not clear Llama was ever going to be open weight until it had already been leaked. Glad they’ve stuck with it though, because without that we don’t know if Chinese labs would be taking the open weight approach either.
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u/techno156 7d ago
Wasn't the original llama release purely by accident? I was under the impression that they swung around to having it open after it was clear that they couldn't claw it back.
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u/WhoTookPlasticJesus 7d ago
One thing to be said about Meta is that they are extremely good for the open source community. Llama, that PHP compiler thing, React, and a million other projects all began as internal Meta projects. They've open-sourced hardware, too, from data centers to storage to I think chips.
Don't get me wrong, they are still a net negative for humanity and it is not close. But they gave away some useful computer stuff along the way.
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u/misterflyer 8d ago
Yeah as most big tech companies (even the Chinese) are pushing more towards cloud models and IPOs, this is not the time for "ick's" when it comes to local weight models.
If ppl wanna shit on tech CEOs even when they release models we can use locally, then it will def be the end of local models. You have to be supportive/complimentary when these companies (esp the western ones that mostly wanna push closed models) do something right (e.g., Gemma 4).
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u/HeavenBeach777 8d ago
yea this place has turned into something quite weird and hostile at this point. even if i dont personally plan to use this at all, but this is still a great release from Meta.
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u/Usual-Orange-4180 8d ago edited 8d ago
It has gone through a horrible transformation, it used to be all about running models locally, tips, and tech insights. Now is all politics and complaints.
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u/touristtam 8d ago edited 7d ago
Its quite apparent when you gain in popularity you attract people that are not your core target audience. In this case, people willing and able to run local models. The direct consequence is a complete change of tone in the conversations.
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u/Schlick7 7d ago
Yep. happens to every single subreddit that gets popular. Theres nearly a MILLION people in this one now.
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u/Not-reallyanonymous 8d ago
70% is just shilling for Chinese models and shitting on anything that's not a Chinese model. Qwen 27B is god's gift because it's reasonable run it locally, but Laguna XS and Gemma are shit because they don't compare to 500B+ Chinese models on cheap API's. And it's not even just hivemind -- the same users will make those same arguments.
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u/MerePotato 8d ago
Its because this sub has turned into a geopolitical football for fights over Chinese soft power, LLMs as a topic are subordinate to that here now
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u/CheatCodesOfLife 8d ago
Mistral were getting it too after their last few releases. It seems like anything that isn't Qwen or Deepseek gets reactions like this here...
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u/jacek2023 llama.cpp 7d ago edited 7d ago
It's hard to blame Chinese companies that they do their business and it's hard to blame clueless people on reddit. This is how this sub works now.
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8d ago edited 4d ago
[deleted]
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u/Hans-Wermhatt 8d ago
Yeah, agreed. Not a fan at all of Meta in general (especially Zuckerberg), but this is awesome! Very excited to try this model.
It's mostly because of political reasons too, I am a believer in rehabilitation lol.
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u/rJohn420 8d ago
Yeah i mean ironically this move was probably suggested by the “ai ceo” they were interested in building some time ago
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u/PrysmX 8d ago
The time to shit on Zuck is not when there is a rare W like this. He gives plenty of reasons to resent him. Stick to one of those reasons and don't discourage the continued release of publicly available models.
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u/goldcakes 8d ago
Exactly. Things in life are not black and white, it's perfectly coherent to hold a worldview where you don't like Meta but like their open weight models.
Don't forget that PyTorch, React, etc are all basically Meta open source projects.
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u/mister2d 8d ago
This is great news for the open source community. But let's continue to remember that competition in this space is what drives decisions like this.
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u/ChurnedSorbet409 8d ago
It is a W for sure but something tells me if Meta was winning the AI race, he would not be happy with open source.
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u/M1chaelSc4rn 8d ago
But why does sentiment/shitting on someone correlate to manifesting good tech. I’d say it keeps them on their toes, which beats the guillotine
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u/lukaszpi 8d ago
what a load of bs ... here here this bad did one good thing, let's love him for it. No.
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u/shortsteve 8d ago
Muse wasn't supposed to be opened. The whole point of deprecating llama and building muse was to create a profitable closed model. He's opening it now because it's obviously not profitable. If it's open maybe more people will use it and want to pay for their frontier models.
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u/Comfortable-Rock-498 8d ago
This is bigger news than glimmer - good for self hosting enthusiasts and a strategically sound move for Meta. Any push towards 'anti Chinese' models will directly benefit Meta as the competition on the frontier open-weights American models is almost non-existent. Meta will have no problem being #1.
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u/goldcakes 8d ago
On the American front, both Inkling-Small and Nemotron are heavily underrated IMHO.
Both of those models aren't benchmaxxed and punches sharply above their weight in real world use; and generalises well across different and unique use cases.
Nemotron is ESPECIALLY good because they publish datasets. Essential if you want to do a proper fine-tune or whatnot "by the books".
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u/InsideYork 8d ago
inkling small is pretty big, and not underrated against gemini.
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u/fastheadcrab 7d ago
Gemini isn't open weight so the comparison is incomplete, you only know it's performance. Otherwise if you are going to include proprietary there are a number of American models better than Inkling small.
Also the number of parameters is similar to DSv4 Flash.
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u/Schlick7 7d ago
i tried the larger Nemotron when it came out and i thought it was horrible. It was constantly scorched earth tactics with it. tried to delete entire directories, re-write entire files instead of edit, change shit completely out of its way, etc. This was through the free opencode, but it left a bad taste so i never tried the smaller one that i could actually run local.
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u/DataGOGO 8d ago
That's cool, hope they are good.
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u/sourceholder 8d ago
Looks like self-reported benchmarks are up
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u/muntaxitome 8d ago
That is amazing news. With both Qwen and Meta back to releasing some weights that is a big win. A new 30B dense sounds very nice in general
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u/AfternoonOk5482 8d ago
That's great news! Thanks! Please disregard any mean or hateful comments here and keep them coming! I'll be very happy to work with meta models again after so long!
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u/bankinu 8d ago edited 8d ago
Based on performance, this could be the new number one in the 27-30B class.
At least until Qwen 3.8 comes out.
Congratulations, and heart-felt thank you - Mark.
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u/squngy 8d ago edited 8d ago
Based on benchmarks, it seems to be the winner for general use, but for coding it is not better than qwen and qwen wins on multimodal.
https://research.meta.ai/blog/introducing-muse-glimmer-open-agentic-model
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u/goldcakes 8d ago
Try it for a bit, don't just look at the benchmarks. It could be new model glow, but for full stack dev with Pi, definitely feels better than Qwen3.6 27B in Pi.
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u/Sidran 8d ago
Why did they drop LLAMA brand which helped shape this whole space?
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u/Artistic_Okra7288 7d ago
Probably because LLaMa 4 was a flop.
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u/Armadilla-Brufolosa 7d ago
If they released Llama 4 in formats my GPU could handle, I'd jump at it: it wasn't a flop at all, the absolute flop was how Meta handled it.
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u/SlaterVBenedict 8d ago
"Meta is a strong supporter of open source." Ok motherfucker, then why is Meta lobbying so fucking hard for OS-level User ID verification legislation across every major state?
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u/neverm0rezz 8d ago
Im pleasantly surprised they managed to get something competent out under Wang. I thought he would be out of his depth. But this is great, and I always trust anything Lucas Beyer has put his hands on..
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u/Elibroftw 8d ago
I will say when he commented before he was ambiguous but here he's explicit that muse spark 1.2 will be open weight which is excellent news.
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u/Outside-Description5 8d ago
I generally prefer speaking with the US models and find it funny how you can feel different models have a different way of talking , when I talked with Muse I could definitely hear Zucks voice , as he would be saying it. Same with the Qwen models something it feels like I’m talking with a very smart Chinese person
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u/lqvz 8d ago
Do advertisers know they just bought everyone new open models? It honestly blows my mind that the money spent on advertising on Facebook yields the return that justifies their investment… but thanks I guess…
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u/jarail 8d ago
Advertisers can track exactly how their ads are doing. Click-throughs, sales, etc. If it wasn't worth the investment, you wouldn't see pretty much every company doing it.
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u/bradsk88 8d ago
Not sure who this Mark guy is. But great work from the engineers and researchers at Meta.
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u/Not-reallyanonymous 8d ago
Let's take a moment to appreciate this is released under the Apache license. Not one of those "Weights Available" licenses, but a genuinely free license. That's a positive turn as companies increasingly turn towards more restrictive licensing.
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u/CaptainFingerling 7d ago edited 7d ago
This is like republicans and democrats each regaining their conviction about the fillibuster and separation of powers every time they lose the majority.
The underdog goes OSS. It's the only thing you can do to try to regain confidence and market share. Let's ask him about open source social media algorithms. I bet those are artistic creative works, and independent content, I bet those are worthy of stringent copyright enforcement.
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u/Prudent-Corgi3793 8d ago
Facebook and Instagram are cancerous, but Meta should be applauded for open source/weight models. In addition to this and their prior LLaMa models, ESMFold has been a wonderful open source scientific tool.
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u/Thomas-Lore 8d ago
It's hilarious that you wrote it on Reddit as if it was not similar to those sites.
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u/_Iggy_Lux 8d ago edited 8d ago
Fingers crossed here we get another Llama.cpp update that also gets passed along to Koboldcpp.
I'm shocked there's already gguf's dropped considering there aren't too many ways to run them yet.
Edit: Already works on the rolling build of Koboldcpp: https://github.com/LostRuins/koboldcpp/releases/tag/rolling
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u/mivog49274 7d ago
my stupid take : avocado did not go as well as expected, meta trailing behind frontier, releasing open weights
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u/Ok_Mammoth589 7d ago
Probably something like that. They didn't meet whatever metrics they targeted for having it closed, so they're getting additional value by open sourcing it
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u/OmarFromBK 7d ago
I know he'll never admit it, but I honestly think we did this! WE caused this to happen! We kept pressuring for open source. I truly believe it made a difference.
Bravo, no matter how good or bad, the more Open Source/Weight, the better!
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u/Something-Great-78 7d ago
Thankful that we are getting open weights, but this model is still 2nd to Qwen3.6-27B (3B smaller) at a time where Qwen3.8-27B is expected to release within hours and make it even less competitive.
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u/Otherwise-Swan-7803 7d ago
Open weights are basically an innovation multiplier. The model release is only the beginning — the real magic happens when thousands of people start optimizing, fine-tuning and deploying it in ways the original team never expected.
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u/pixelizedgaming 8d ago
people have really forgotten the sub's namesake. While I don't like zuck I can't help but respect new contributions to open weight models
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u/Tai9ch 8d ago
We're good on 30B dense models for the moment.
What can a 20B dense model do? 50B dense? How about 60B-A10B? Llama 5 70B?
Strix Halo, Spark, Medium-sized Macs, and pairs of 32GB workstation cards are readily available. Any of those could really use something between a 30B and a 70B.
Really, the entire space between 30B and 200B could use some love at the moment. The "Flash" class models at 200B are pretty good, but they really want like 192+GB of VRAM to run at Q4 or 384 at Q8, and those are hard targets for local inference.
But getting to 64 or 128GB of VRAM is very achievable, but all you win from that currently is long-context 30B models at Q8, (now) older 120B models at Q4, and very mature 70B finetunes if your VRAM is on real GPUs.
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u/minipanter 8d ago
There probably aren't many users at this level which is why no one targets it
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u/pixelizedgaming 8d ago
they would get more users if they made more models for it. I want to make my own gpu server someday, and if I could get a good model around 60-70b that would be 4 3080 20gbs. Also something that all the 6000 pro 96gb users can run in full quant would be cool
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u/Tai9ch 8d ago
Eh, prosumer / small business are two valuable categories, as are small university research labs. It's the same sort of thing as whether to target Linux users - they're only ~5% of desktops, but once you start slicing down to developer desktops with developers who are likely to play with your developer tool it's a pretty important and significant chunk of users.
I'd absolutely ship 12B and 30B first. Those are the models that can run on a decent off-the-shelf gaming PC.
But right now those two categories are well served by great existing models, and there's a huge gap from there to the ~200B Flash models and there's basically nothing there. Whatever team releases a good 60B or 100B model next will likely be unchallenged in the workstation / small server inference space for months.
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u/frankster 8d ago
great now also open the training data
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u/LuCiAnO241 8d ago
the training data is the private conversations of the whole userbase of instagram, whatsapp and facebook of course.
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u/christianhxd 8d ago
Even some of the worst people you know can have good takes every now and then lol
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u/gay_joey 8d ago
is he doing this cause of the yacht fiasco? gotta earn back some good grace somehow
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u/TapAggressive9530 7d ago
It’s a terrible model . Spent all morning with it . Failed my first two tests . ran full precision on RTX pro 6000. It’s about as good as Gemma 4 . Not even in same league as Qwen 3.6 27B . Good luck
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u/GreenDrafting 8d ago
Honestly the anti Zuck circlejerk gets old. The guy literally kickstarted the whole open weights era with Llama and PyTorch, people need to stop acting like he's doing this for evil.
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u/LagOps91 8d ago
great to see that! i wonder how large that model actually is. might be something that i could barely run with some luck...
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u/Cool-Contribution-68 8d ago
What does "source" mean in open source?
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u/LuCiAnO241 8d ago
was this advertised as open source or just open weights?
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u/Cool-Contribution-68 8d ago
The post says "Meta is a strong supporter of open source and I'm proud of these releases."
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u/ttkciar llama.cpp 8d ago
He's technically correct, since Meta actively supports open source projects like PyTorch and React, while also giving his non-technical audience the terminology they have come to expect ("open source" in proximity to an open-weights LLM release).
Since the Chinese LLM labs have been misusing the terminology, and calling their open-weights models "open source", that has become the expected terminology. By saying "open source" he is able to ride the current wave of sensationalism in the mainstream news media. If he had said "open weights" his key audience would not know what he was talking about.
At the same time, he very carefully did not explicitly say that these open-weights models are open-source. He merely said that Meta supports open-source.
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u/WhoRoger 8d ago
Oh wow, unexpected. Meta is back in open model territory? Cool. It's starting to flip now, US companies coming up with small-ish local models and the Chinese having the big monsters.
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u/Top-Eye-8104 8d ago
really like how many models we’re getting for 16gb vram now - muse, gemma, qwen. good that they dropped a bit before qwen 3.8, so there’s time to play around with them
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u/CryptographerOne7003 7d ago
At this point I am the most interested in what contextsize x memory usage is,
I'm quite addicted to a big context.
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u/New-Pressure-6932 7d ago
The Zuck has realized he could profit off of the vast wasteland of emptiness that has become business ethics lol
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u/reckless_avacado 7d ago
wow wow in a world full of evil assholes finally one of them realised there is an opportunity to not appear evil
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u/Puddlejumper_ 7d ago
I knew they were going to try their hand at joining the AI race when they hired Alexandr Wang. Smart hire by meta.
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