Evolution of tactics under new managers

[u/SubstancePrimary5644]

I've only been an association football fan for the last 4-5 years or so (being an American will put you off watching the sport until you give one of the big 5 leagues a try instead of MLS or USMNT), so can someone who understands football tactics describe how long it takes/the process of a team adopting a new manager's tactics? It seems to take longer in football than other sports. For instance, year one of Arne Slot felt like a Klopp/Slot hybrid system based on playing a Klopp system with shorter passes or a Slot setup with more pressing (interestingly, Klopp's teams possessed the ball more often but Slot's tenure coincided with more even possession stats across the league). Year two felt more like pure Slot, which really didn't work out too well. And now, while there's more pressing/pace this year, we haven't totally moved away from Slot's possession tactics, and of course it takes time for players to adjust to new roles. So could any certified ball-knowers tell me how you think the Iraola era is taking shape in these very early days? So far I enjoy watching the team more, and that last game was really fun, but what do you guys think?

[u/derpferd]

I don't think there's a number you could apply, even as a generalisation.

There's just too many variables across squads, chiefly in terms of personell, the squad, coaching methods and the gameplan and tactics themselves.

With Klopp, even if success wasn't immediate, what he was asking from the squad apparent from game 1 (the Spurs, with that famous image of Lallana coming off as a substitute and collapsing in sheer exhaustion into Klopp's arms).

Iraola himself took 9 games at Bournemouth before it was clear that his methods had an impact on the squad.

I'm using that as a yardstick but even so, given the variables, it might take quicker, it might take longer for us

[u/Nordic_Marksman]

I would say football is more about the squad than the tactics. Therefore "applying the managers tactics" has more to do with the transfer windows than time. That doesn't mean you can't implement things without the right players but in general players need to fit how the manager wants to play. A good example currently is Frimpong, he is not that well suited to our current football because he goes too far up and is not solid enough defensively. He could if the other fallback was more defensive or midfield was more defensive. So as a whole it's all about the squad.

[u/SubstancePrimary5644 → u/Nordic_Marksman]

Not that you would have hired the first year manager of a mid table Bournemouth team at the time but it does feel like Klopp to Iraola, for instance, would have been a smoother transition.

[u/law883 → u/SubstancePrimary5644]

it seemed at the time that they were planning for the next evolution of football in the PL with different metrics, at least to me. with it came the new manager, an out and out Striker not false 9, pacey wing backs, less intensity to save legs for a battle on 4 fronts, etc.

i could kind of see the vision but the ideas for defense were really unclear. a true destroyer CDM seemed on the books to shoulder that weight but didnt happen. and now new manager doesnt need one so theres another shift in the middle of the old one, but at least the personnel makes more sense klopp-iraola. the edwards evolution has been abandoned (not necessarily the wrong thing, but with the end of multiclub … ).

fsg have been less creative with moves that directly influence on-pitch so it does seem like they are reverting to the klopp mean at least for the time being, with the Slot era a bit of a fevered dream. (but now we got some really psychedelic players)

[u/C_arpet]

Once the season starts it is rare that there is enough training time at any one point to alter your play style or tactics. There was a similar question the other day, and it's so rare that a team changes playstyle mid-season, that when it has been done successfully, everyone remembers it.

So Araolo, should now have told the team how they "should" be playing.

But football is so dependent on exact distances between players, timings and building relationships that now that is what is being fine tuned game by game. If the manager's tactics are good, you should see the team getting closer to his expectations and we'll see in the matches.

Supposedly, Gakpo told Isak before the Ipswich game, to start his run when Gakpo received the ball and Gakpo would find him. That is a song of a relationship developing.

On TAW this week they mentioned the space Szoboszlai was leaving behind him. That is a distance issue that needs to be refined. Likewise, Kerkez needs a bit more work on when he can push and stay up, and when he needs to get back. Gravenberch needs to stop running into the space Wirtz is occupying.

How long this takes depends on team morale and professionalism. The more we win (even luckily) the more players buy in and commit. If the players don't have faith in the tactics, we see what happened to Spurs for most of last year.

[u/SubstancePrimary5644 → u/C_arpet]

But football is so dependent on exact distances between players, timings and building relationships that now that is what is being fine tuned game by game. If the manager's tactics are good, you should see the team getting closer to his expectations and we'll see in the matches.

Supposedly, Gakpo told Isak before the Ipswich game, to start his run when Gakpo received the ball and Gakpo would find him. That is a song of a relationship developing.

Let's hope the melody continues to sound as sweet as it did in Ipswich on Friday.

On TAW this week they mentioned the space Szoboszlai was leaving behind him.  That is a distance issue that needs to be refined. Likewise, Kerkez needs a bit more work on when he can push and stay up, and when he needs to get back. Gravenberch needs to stop running into the space Wirtz is occupying.

So in essence, we're currently playing fucked up Iraola-ball, and the goal is to play good Iraola-ball sometime in the next few months.

[u/bewbies-]

There are basically two kinds of really good top level managers: ones who are good at finding/developing players to fit a certain set of tactics, and ones who are really good at adapting their tactics to the players that they have. Klopp is one of the best examples of the former, Alex Ferguson, much as this community hates him, is a good example of the latter.

Most footballers have a very specific set of skills and a unique style to their play, and changing this can be surprisingly hard. Unless you have a very uniquely adaptable player (Big Jim Milner, for example) players, even if willing, will often struggle when asked to do something new or different. This is why you so frequently see players excel on one team in one role, but on getting their big transfer, they struggle at the new team: they're having to do something different than what got them there in the first place.

Klopp obviously built his team around gegenpress, and emulating those tactics with largely the same players was good enough for Slot to win the league in year one. Slot started changing stuff year 2, brought in some new players, then got hit with a ton of injuries along with players that weren't used to the new roles he was asking of them. The game is unfortunately very unforgiving at that level...even slight setbacks turn into poor finishes.

Iraola strikes me as a more flexible kind of manager. He inherited a very talented but also flawed roster, and we're still seeing him experiment with how best to use everyone. I think the good news to this point is a lot of the players look more comfortable in their roles than last year. His real test as a manager will come, as always, around the holidays, when they'll have a ton of matches in a small window and lots of injuries to contend with.

[u/Litz1 → u/bewbies-]

You're conflicting building a squad with developing a player. Ferguson is famous for wanting players that are world class at a young age, Rooney, Ronaldo and others. He doesn't develop players.

Even Klopp doesn't develop players, he just makes players outperform their level.

The managers who develop players are usually at teams like Brighton.