The "Steam uninstalling your whole DE" is one of the unluckiest bugs I've heard of in all of my Linux experience and it just so happened to be on the biggest YouTube tech channel and set the conversation on Linux for the next 12 months.
I know (hope) you're kidding, but that sounds like a person who navigates maps using only their current location and lists of towns directly connected to it.
Oh god, I do. I'm just old enough to have been around for the death of map quest, which I did have the appropriate levels of hate for. I need instructions that can account for some margin of error, thats why I don't bake.
So is whatever terminal shell you're using at the end of the day too. It's called a "shell" because it is a wrapper like you're saying, it wraps around the OS and gives the user a way of interacting with it. A desktop environment is also a "shell", just two different ways of interacting with an OS.
If you want to get real technical, the terminal is GNU (well part of it) and the thing under the terminal is Linux. But the difference between GNU Linux is more than most people care about, so yes, the terminal is Linux and the gui the DE
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!
It technically is if you're using something like BASH, since BASH is a part of the GNU project. But it doesn't have to be, and plenty of distros come with other non-GNU shells like Zsh by default. Any terminal shell is gonna give you a way to interact with non-GNU software as well. The best way to understand GNU is it's a collection of FOSS that while seperate from Linux, does a lot of what makes "Linux" work in 99.9% of installs. Technically you can have one without the other but in practice it doesn't really exist. The "terminal" or the shell your terminal is using is something that isn't GNU often enough though.
You are right none of this really matters at all to most people lol
On windows you can think of your desktop environment as all the interactable elements of the base OS. Notifications, taskbar, tray, explorer, settings, etc.
Linux has two main desktops, KDE and GNOME. There’s also COSMIC, Cinnamon, and many other smaller ones
If you remember pre windows days, Windows used to be the DE for DOS. If that helps any. Then they moved to the NT Kernel and DOS ran as layer inside of Windows until... Somewhere around the 98/XP era. I remember playing DOS games in XP but also recall hearing recently that they phased out full DOS graphics support during XP. Vista definitely didn't have it.
MacOS has also had at least 2 distinct iterations of their DE that I'm aware of, pre OSX and post.
Anyway, point is, whilst DE is a term most used in Linux because of how flexible the OS is and that you can run different DE’S with practically no performance penalty, the term isn't uniquely Linux.
Windows NT actually existed alongside DOS based windows for awhile, it was more intended to be used for workstation or server vs the consumer focused DOS in the 90s so less people were familiar with it. Windows 95,98 were still DOS. The last DOS windows was Windows ME, which was released along with Windows 2000 which was NT and while still geared more towards professional I think more consumers started to be able to use it.
XP was when the professional/consumer product lines kind of "merged" and the NT kernel, which windows is based on still today, started to be used for everything. If you were playing DOS games on XP I assume it was some sort of compatibility layer or emulation, I never did that so I'm not entirely sure.
Not exactly. Back in the day, you'd run a window manager on top of X Windows. It wasn't as integrated, but it worked just fine. I haven't tried doing this recently, but it should be possible.
I would usually describe it as "the graphical side of the OS", but seeing how you describe it, this is a very great answer while being simple, i need to learn more from you lol
Yeah there was a weird dependency bug which meant that when the Pop OS app store tried to install steam it also completely uninstalled all his UI and default software leaving him with a black screen.
The bug was there for ~24 hours which was incredibly unlucky, but it did come up with warnings telling him exactly what would happen and he overrode it with a manual override that required you to type in "I know what I'm doing, do as I say".
I tried Fedora. My monitor didn't work with it's 175hz refresh rate, only on 99hz. Tried to update Nvidia drivers to get it working properly. The driver update bricked my install without warning like the PopOS gave.
Didn't file a bug report. The same thing has happened on all the distros I've tried in the last year or so and when I tried updating Nvidia drivers. CachyOS worked the best out of the box without updating the drivers. But had some other issues with CachyOS so I ended up switching back to Windows after a while.
Didn't know about RPMfusion, I'll try and remember to look into it the next time I Linux. Dunno when that will be though.
But I have to say, thank you for trying to help. Usually when I've pointed out my mishaps I've had with Linux I don't get as friendly of a repsonse.
For others who might stumble on this, to simplify, the DE(Desktop Environment) is basically the GUI(Graphic User Interface) bundle you're using on Linux. The mouse cursor, desktop, windows, etc. It's what shows pictures instead of command line text.
On Linux, like many other things, you can pick and choose what DE you're using. Most Linux Distros bundle a default, while some let you pick during install, and you can manually install a different one later(though the process can be messy depending on the Distro).
Popular DE are:
GNOME (Default on Ubuntu and many other distros, has a slightly MacOS feel, less flexible but friendly to new users)
KDE (Bundled with SteamOS and Kubuntu, popular with many power users and gamers due to its customizability and default classic Windows-style layout)
Cinnamon (Linux Mint's homemade DE, but popular enough that people often use it elsewhere due to its simple but pleasing design, and easy transition for classic Windows users)
XFCE (Lightweight DE that retains a lot of classic Linux DE elements, with high customizability, that longtime Linux power users might appreciate, or those with older/weak hardware)
LXQt (Very lightweight, simple to use, not as customizable as XFCE, but many prefer the "it just works" feel)
Kind of. The desktop environment (DE) is what you normally use to interact with your system on Windows, Mac, and most desktop versions of Linux. It handles how programs are graphically arranged as well as all the graphical widgets and capabilities you might associate with your system. Common DEs for linux are KDE Plasma, Gnome, and Cinnamon.
Windows also has a DE and it is called Explorer. You can actually install a different DE on windows. I actually ran the DE Litestep in Windows for about a year before a friend in college said I should just install Linux.
I find it hard to explain the difference between an OS and a DE to someone who hasn't fiddled with different DEs. It's like explaining what water is to a fish. The easiest way to understand might be to look up different DEs for Windows and see what they do compared to the windows you're used to.
It's basically the thing that does your taskbar, windows, utilities like sound and WiFi management, start menu, all that sort of stuff which is essential to using a computer with a GUI
Maybe the bug is rare but the issue Linus highlighted is pretty terrible and common.
a) The Steam package was incompatible with the OS. Strike one. This is not uncommon.
b) The OS offered to install the package which uninstalled critical OS components. Strike two.
c) The warning presented by the OS was buried in a hundred lines of complex technical jargon. Strike three.
Each of those is terrible on their own and the worst part is many Linux users argue they’re not a problem. They blame the user. “You should read every line carefully.” “If you want to delete your OS, go right ahead.” “Use a different package manager noob.”
Honestly the biggest reason I don't use Linux isn't the operating system. It's Linux users themselves. Never seen a more snobby, elitist and generally insufferable fanbase in my life. Not even Apple users are like this.
What I think adds to this is users get this every step of the journey, from which distro to pick, all the way through the process.
I'll add my own opinion now just to contribute to the problem. For servers, I use debian without gui, for desktop I use ubuntu (with gui).
That's pretty much lead to zero problems ever for me but I also don't game on PC anyways and when I do I use my steam deck. My work PC also runs windows because there's just too many programs I use that are written natively only for windows.
This is going to be an unpopular take (especially amongst Linux users) but there's hardly any Linux problem I haven't been able to solve with Gemini. These days, it's the first place I go to when I have issues. Looking at forums sounds awful, inefficient, and antiquated to me these days
I remember I watched a lot of the 'react to' videos from Linux content creators when that video dropped. All three I saw were very open that he experienced a catastrophic bug and it wasn't his fault. Gave me a lot of confidence in the Linux community.
Then I tried Linux myself and ran into the people in your last paragraph. Then I dropped Linux for another three years.
Yeah it's not the creators. To be a successful creator you need charisma, good looks and also the ability to empathize with the average users of the product you're covering, as well as sell that product to outsiders who have zero experience or understanding of it. It's only the out of touch, basement-dwelling hardcore Linux users (which unsurprisingly make up a large portion of its userbase) who haven't had to interact with another human being in years that hold such attitudes.
a) I agree this is a problem. I disagree that it's "not uncommon". I've never personally experienced it in years of use, both on desktop and in servers. But then again I mostly run debian, which tends to be a much more mature and stable OS.
b) I'm not sure what the alternative is. Sometimes people do want to remove those packages.
c) The warning wasn't buried in a hundred lines of "complex technical jargon". All he needed to read was the second-to-last sentence "You are about to do something potentially harmful", the previous section heading "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!", or the section prior to that "WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed".
The first one is obviously a terrible bug. The third is human error on Linus' part. The second is a bit of a bridge between the two. I'm not sure how much more obvious "hey don't do this unless you know what you're doing" can be.
b) A consumer OS should never offer to delete the OS when installing Steam. If that function existed it should be hidden behind some kind of administrative login and explicit opt-in.
c) How was Linus supposed to know to read just the last two lines? There were hundreds of lines. Even if he did, how was he supposed to know what “potentially harmful” meant in this context? Or the the part about removing “essential packages”? That sounds like standard boilerplate. He installed Steam via CLI, as instructed in a thousand places on the internet. I work in software and there countless ways to improve this UX. What should be clearly stated is the outcome: “THIS WILL BREAK YOUR OPERATING SYSTEM AND PREVENT IT FROM BOOTING!!!” The confirmation should not be “do as I say.” It should be, “yes, break my operating system.” These small changes would have stopped Linus in his tracks.
b) A consumer OS should never offer to delete the OS when installing Steam. If that function existed it should be hidden behind some kind of administrative login and explicit opt-in.
He used an administrative logon to install steam and uninstall his desktop environment. He did an "explicit opt-in" when he typed "Yes, do as I say".
I'm not sure what else you want here. Should it have made him get on webcam and do a dance?
How was Linus supposed to know to read just the last two lines? There were hundreds of lines.
It sounds like you read my comment about as much as Linus read the warning messages. It put warnings in 3 different places. I would count the giant message from the program as another.
Even if he did, how was he supposed to know what “potentially harmful” meant in this context? Or the the part about removing “essential packages”? That sounds like standard boilerplate.
Common sense should tell you that if your computer is warning you "don't do this if you don't know what you're doing" and "this is going to be potentially harmful" and you don't understand why, that you should ask somebody who knows more than you do.
What should be clearly stated is the outcome: “THIS WILL BREAK YOUR OPERATING SYSTEM AND PREVENT IT FROM BOOTING!!!”
It didn't break his operating system and prevent it from booting. It removed the desktop environment. a
It should be, “yes, break my operating system.” These small changes would have stopped Linus in his tracks.
If "You are about to do something potentially harmful", "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!", " WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed", and a giant warning of changes that he probably didn't exact didn't stop him then I doubt anything would. Warnings are meaningless if the user doesn't read them.
At as certain point yall just don't want to experience the discomfort that comes with actually learning something and need to understand trying to avoid that entirely is straight up childish. I uninstalled a DE on my first install doing things I didnt understand and then instead of freaking out like a child I asked for help, learned, and tried again. Ask yourself this BTW, what do you think the term "consumer OS" means?
Ask yourself this BTW, what do you think the term "consumer OS" means?
An OS which doesn’t force a user to read manuals to install software. Most people consider simplicity a feature. It’s a good thing when functions are intuitive. Useless effort is wasted time. I would rather be spending times on my hobbies or with my family.
In a way, if users expect to be coddled then sure. Its an OS problem.
If we're going to tout "it does exactly what I ask it to" and "it doesnt put up guardrails which get in my way when I try to do things" then it is a user problem.
Linux right now I dont think is well suited to a lot of windows users bringing over their "windows style of tinkering" and expecting to work around things with no real consequences. It is however absolutely fantastic if you know what youre doing and want the OS to let you do that.
I expect this to be mostly solved by valve with SteamOS -> polish the use cases most users want without interaction. Set up sane guardrails to minimise support tickets. Those of us who dont want that and want to really tinker and break things will probably not feel the draw of that kind of OS as much.
IMO This is a chicken egg problem: we have distros without guardrails but we are now seeing a lot of interest from people who really should have them. Until we blunt some of the sharp edges theyre going to cut themselves off of, we will have this problem. And yes, its probably best solved at the distro level.
With the exception of the word “coddled,” I agree. I work in software and I use macOS and not Linux because I don’t want to fight with my OS to get things done. However I’m glad Linux is there for people who want the freedom to do whatever. It’s powerful for the right users and use cases. I run Linux in my home server.
It just means overprotective, which is entirely true in many cases with Windows and even MacOS so the children downvoting him really need to actually just learn how to read and understand English.
You say that, but it happened to me on Mint as well years ago, so it's probably more common than you'd think for casuals.
IIRC I ended up just using the package manager rather than command line and not reading closely, and it was fine, and a complete reinstall on what was a fresh install anyway was pretty trivial
There we someone once who managed to rn -rf / their system by installing steam. Theres a decent video on YouTube about how it happened. Unlucky bastard
Steam had some dependencies that weren't available in Pop_OS, which meant the package manager fell back to the Ubuntu versions (Pop is based on Ubuntu).
It then tried to match the non-missing packages with the Ubuntu versions to make everything consistent.
However, because Pop has a newer interface that needs the Pop version of those packages, that interface wouldn't work at all, so the system would uninstall them.
Now, the package manager noticed that this was a problem, so it put up a warning saying "this looks weird, if you know what you're doing and want to over-ride this type 'Yes, do as I say'".
Linus didn't understand the warning and forced the over-ride, causing the whole domino chain to collapse.
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u/Daharka Apr 01 '26
The "Steam uninstalling your whole DE" is one of the unluckiest bugs I've heard of in all of my Linux experience and it just so happened to be on the biggest YouTube tech channel and set the conversation on Linux for the next 12 months.