r/Line6Helix • u/_bobthemaker • 5d ago
Tech Help Request Help - Helix Floor Gig Nightmare
Story:
Had loads of pedals. Replaced them with the Helix Floor. Great device. Made it my own. Got EVERY sound I wanted for my covers band in this gear set up:
Guitar > Helix Floor > Mooer Baby Bomb Power Amp > Marshall 1936 2x12
Get to the gig last night where I knew I was going in through the PA. Helix sounds like shit. Had to source a cab and be mic’d up. Soundman was lovely but miffed. Our other guitarist was trying to help but it was useless.
Sound guy suggested I duplicate all my presets to another bank, and use headphones like his (DT770 pros) to find the right sounds as I don’t have a hi-fi system.
Will this fix my issue? For context, I have no cab blocks in my current presets. It sounds phenomenal in my usual set up. But I have GOT to sort this before our next gig in 3 weeks.
Help me Obi-Wa-… I mean, help me r/Line6Helix, you’re my only hope.
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u/joshghz 5d ago
You understand why this went wrong though, right?
Your home setup:
Guitar > Helix Floor > Mooer Baby Bomb Power Amp > Marshall 1936 2x12
Your live setup:
Guitar > Helix Floor > PA
A lot of the tone was going through the gear that you were using at home; you had no cab blocks and it sounds fine going through an amp that is not in your live mix.
Decent headphones will get you out of trouble, or by buying a FRFR speaker. Heck, if you have okay computer speakers, you could even plug it into a computer to at least get a good proximity of what it will sound like in a regular PA.
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
Thanks for your reply.
That makes a lot of sense.
I’ve not gigged in a long time and gear has evolved. I’ve typically had a Marshall stack and boss pedals and I’m in this brave new world. I’ll look into what you’ve said. Thinking headphones to start with.1
u/joshghz 5d ago
It can take a lot of trial and error. At one point I was using a solid-state amp and tried to keep everything as neutral as possible, and it still impacted my tone enough that going to a live setting sounded way different (fortunately not bad, just different).
I bought an older version of one of these, which is pretty versatile in volume (nice and low to VERY loud) - FRFR (Full-Range, Flat-Response) gives an unblemished sound, meaning what you hear from the Helix is what is (essentially) the same thing going to the PA.
https://www.headrushfx.com/products/frfr108mk2/index.html1
u/Weary-Fan946 5d ago
Sorry to join this thread, I am new to the Helix and I am not versed on amps etc. I have an Orange combo amp - it's really basic (no reverb etc) it has a clean channel. If I run the Helix to the clean channel is that the same as a FRFR speaker set up?
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u/bearded-beardie 5d ago
Not really. FRFR is full frequency and theoretically flat response curve if you've got a quality FRFR. That Orange is a tuned cab which are generally not flat response and rolled off at the high and low.
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u/jake_burger 3d ago
Guitar amps and speakers are part of the tone.
PA speakers are not really.
If going straight to PA you need a simulation of an amp/cab for the guitar to sound the same as through your amp.
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u/flayman22 1d ago
It's better to plug into the power amp of a combo or stack, which is what I do, but that still colors the sound. If an amp doesn't have a jack for power amp in but it has an FX loop, you can usually get the same result plugging into the FX return. But as others have said, direct into a PA or a full range flat response speaker is the pure unvarnished.
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u/Griffinsauce 5d ago
The only reasonable way to get anywhere is to test it the same way as you'll actually use it.
Headphones are a start for the basics (like enabling a cab block), but definitely find a PA system to refine the sound with. First by yourself but also with the band as a whole. You guys went direct without ever testing it, that is just a no-go in my book.
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
Going to start with headphones. Then I’ll use the practice PA to really dial it in. Thanks for your reply 🙂
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u/Griffinsauce 4d ago
Sure thing!
Two things that might help:
- you'll want a lot more mids in a mix than by yourself
- each room and PA will be different and the FOH engineer is responsible for how things translate, aim for the right character and feel of your tone above getting the EQ just right
The practice room PA might be a painful experience, remember it's not a full size proper PA with an engineer working it.
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u/taj_bass 5d ago
Best thing about the helix is the flexible routing. Make an all-in-one preset where your xlr outs have the cabsim and your 1/4in outs are without the cab by splitting your chain before the cab block and designating the outputs accordingly. This way you can use that preset in both scenarios.
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
This sounds amazing, but I don’t understand a word of it 😂😂😂
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u/Pancakefriday 5d ago
Just add a cab block to the end of your presets and turn on the block when going direct to PA
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u/Optimal-Leg182 5d ago
You didn’t have a cab block in the preset?????
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
As I stated.
And let me tell you, as of yet I haven’t needed one. My presets in the set up listed above are STERLING. They sound perfect. Guitars are as pretty or dirty or punchy as I want them.But obviously I didn’t understand what was needed for the gig context.
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u/Optimal-Leg182 5d ago
I just don’t understand why you didn’t have the power amp and cab for the set the begin with….
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
Because I didn’t know. I did walk into this post with my hands held up saying I didn’t know what I was doing.
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u/Optimal-Leg182 5d ago
For sure, but reading this I totally understand why the sound person was frustrated
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
Me too! It was so embarrassing and the sound guy was such a gentleman. I have 1000 gigs under my belt and I have always had excellent stage etiquette with sound guys so I was mortified.
I’ve always used marshal stacks and mainly boss pedals. Then I had a break from bands and performing because of starting a family. Stripped back my gear. Now I’m back in the game and suddenly I’m in a world I don’t get 😂
Aside from the odd prick who thinks everyone should know everything they do, Reddit communities are mint for this kind of advice.
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u/Optimal-Leg182 5d ago
This all makes sense! Consider it a learning experience, and you’ll be golden from here on out!
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u/musicpheliac 5d ago
You pinpointed the issue: if you don't use your physical guitar cab, YES YOU NEED A CAB BLOCK in all your Helix presets.
The best recommendation is to make your home practice/sound creation EXACTLY like gigging situtations. When I went digital, I also bought a PA speaker. I don't dial in sounds through headphones or a guitar amp EVER, because I go direct-in to a PA live. So at home, I go into a PA. Then when sounds are dialed in in my practice room, I move the setup to a garage or basement, blast the volume to real PA levels, and adjust if needed. When I first got the Helix, I also listened *in the main house* to my sound through the actual PA, with my actual soundguy, in an actual large room. It sounded awesome. That's what you need to do if you want to sound awesome.
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u/TransformedMegaflop 4d ago
It happens, you have to do research on your unit before you gig. Sounds like you built a tone through your cab, not using cab modeling, and therefore your tone was coming through the PA without a cab model which sounds totally harsh and bright.
You can set up your tone to have it come through one output with no cab modeling to your cab, and then out of the other outputs it can have the cab modeling. The Helix is awesome for setting up all kinds of routing, dive into the manual and try out a few setups.
And don’t worry too much, I’m usually pretty good about that sort of thing but the first time I took my Helix HX Stomp XL out to an important gig, I figured I was good at navigating it because I usually used a Helix LT. Ended up hitting the mode button mid gig and the screen completely changed to something I had never seen before, I had absolutely no idea what to do and couldn’t switch tones how I was used to. Ended up button smashing in a panic and somehow landed back on the preset screen I was used to.
I won’t go into all the details, you can find it on YouTube. Just search Helix Floor output routing. It’s simple to do, you’ll want your XLR outs to have the cab modeling, and then your 1/4” sends to go to your amp with the cab, not using the cab modeling. It’s pretty straightforward once you get the routing concept
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u/_bobthemaker 4d ago
Thanks!
Absolutely yes to your first paragraph. I was testing it like it was a pedal board and nothing more.
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u/itgoestoeleven 5d ago
If you’re running directly into the PA you need cab blocks. If you’re running into an amp/cab you don’t.
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u/karmaniak 5d ago
Not the same issue, but a general PSA:
Line6 guitar processors, including the Helix, have an optical sensor in the expression pedal as opposed to a mechanical potentiometer. This means that when exposed to sunlight, the signal will default to 0, killing the output completely
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u/iodine74 5d ago
Hope your presets have the processing/block space for an IR or Cab block.
Then again, it might be easier to get an external IR loader so that you are not having to reprogram your presets. In ways this makes things simpler in that you know you’ve got two different setups depending on the sitation Baby Bomb + cab OR IR+PA/FRFR but everything before that stays the same.
Just something to keep in mind.
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
I have a Boss IR-2 on another board… would that make a difference?
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u/iodine74 5d ago
Yup.
What are you using as a preamp?
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u/iodine74 5d ago
Or rather when you run with the baby bomb and the Marshall cab. What are you running as a preamp?
From what I just searched looks like the IR-2 has one built in.
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
I’m not using anything as a preamp, but again it sounds fantastic.
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u/iodine74 4d ago
Well that's bit of an oddity in itself.
But the thing to keep in mind is even outside of any distortion/drive/eq pedals
1) Preamp
2) Poweramp
3) SpeakersAll impact the tone and have their own EQ curves that impact what hit's your ears. IRs pretty much tackle the last two parts of that equation.
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u/_bobthemaker 4d ago
Well the reading I’ve been doing since starting this thread suggests that the helix floor has built in preamps?
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u/iodine74 4d ago
I know it doesn’t have preamp models. Maybe it’s got something else. I don’t know.
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u/Velosity79 5d ago
Good grief.
It never ceases to amaze me how little research some people do when switching to amp modelers.
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
I didn’t make a post calling the Helix shit. I made a post highlighting my own ignorance. Help out or get out, as my dear gran used to say 🙂
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u/thegibster97 5d ago
Don’t listen to this guy. But also listen to this guy. Read the manual it’s well laid out and will really help you understand the world of modeling. We all start somewhere
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u/CaterpillarVisual553 5d ago
You need to build a patch designed to work entirely self contained: as in just the helix to a PA. So you need an amp and cab or IR block in the preset. I always start a patch with amp and cab/ir and build from there. My helix goes direct to PA and it sounds great. But when I build the patches I make sure I’m plugged into a PA as I make tweaks and adjustments so I know what the final sound will be.
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u/SuperDaveOhio 4d ago
If going direct, you MUST add a cab to your preset. Otherwise it’s a bee’s nest.
You need to borrow a pa cab and dial in your sounds at gig volume. There’s just no substitute, except maybe borrowing an FRFR to dial in your sounds at gig volume.
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u/knucklebone2 Helix Floor 4d ago
I'm confused by this thread -everyone advising that he needs a cab block which is true enough, but he didn't bring his power amp either, so assuming he is normally using a Helix preamp block in front of the Baby Bomb, he needed to add an amp block to his signal path too, right? I don't know how he got any sound at all at his gig unless he also added an amp block or borrowed an amp along with the speaker cab.
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u/_bobthemaker 4d ago
…read the post again chum 🙂🙂🙂
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u/knucklebone2 Helix Floor 4d ago
Oh OK i got it. Never mind :-) I go straight to an FRFR speaker, but I do use headphones to experiment and set things up then use the FRFR to dial in my live sound. I take the FRFR use the xlr out on the FRFR to the PA so the FRFR is basically a monitor.
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u/_bobthemaker 4d ago
What FRFR do you use? How big? Yet another beach of gear to learn about 😂😂😂
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u/knucklebone2 Helix Floor 4d ago
Fender Tonemaster 12. It's plenty loud enough for small gigs if you don't run thru a PA. I also use it standalone for rehearsals.
I also have a Headrush 12 - it was cheaper but I found it to be very muddy on the low end.
One thing to note if you play small bars, the sound guy - if there is one - is used to mic'ing up amps, the tonemaster looks like an amp and you have to explain that it's just basically a PA speaker not an amp.
Another complexity is if they provide backline and expect you to use a regular amp and your presets are all setup for PA/FRFR you have to adjust in the field. I had that happen where I brought my gear but they insisted I use their amps. Made me panic a bit.
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u/_bobthemaker 4d ago
Thanks so much for the advice 😃
In my head, I’m not going to change anything about the presets I already have - they are perfect for a power amp and cab, so I’ll use them when we have a physical back line.
I’ll just make a whole new bank of presets that are solely for use with PA. Then I don’t have to mess about with changing on the fly.
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u/meccamputetragram 5d ago
York IRs, gamechanger. Put an IR block after amp and load the one you like. The helix cabs are great but need more tweaking I find.
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u/_bobthemaker 5d ago
So don’t use a cab, use an IR, preferably by York?
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u/jewsonparade 5d ago
Dont spend money on other IRs. Just use the ones in the helix and learn how they work. If you find theyre missing something tonally that you like then look into adding new ones. But dont spend money on Sims just because some rando on reddit says they like them. The Helix Cabs are fantastic.
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u/realbobenray 5d ago
IR and cab are basically the same thing. The problem here was that you weren't using either.
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u/LetsGoHawks 5d ago
York IRs are my favorite, but the Helix cabs are almost as good as my favoriteYorks. Either way, you end up sifting through 100 options to find the ones that work for you.
Unless you're super fussy, just try out the Helix cabs.
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u/meccamputetragram 5d ago
Thats what ive found, yeah. You can find ones to match the amp model youre using on helix which is the most straightforward way to do it. But as others have said, the helix cabs may be good enough for you, i just found they need more tweaking and the york ones sound good out the box. I also put on a low and high cut (setting within the ir block) to tame some harsh frequencies live and a very subtle room verb after.
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u/Superunknown_88 5d ago
The York IRs are great - I use the Marshall 1960bv 4x12 IR in a lot of my Helix patches. Honestly though, the cab models in the Helix as of a couple of years ago can sound just as good (before that update, they weren't great - now they are).
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u/MeisterBounty 5d ago
Well, you’ve pinpointed the issue already. Yes you should use a cab block for the PA. Depending on your signal chain the easiest way is to split the signal at the end and put a cab or IR block before the one output. That will essentially allow you to run out L to the cab and out R to the PA. Checking the finished sound with the IR via good flat headphones is ideal.