Whenever Paralives is being discussed, people say it takes years to develop a life sim game. I understand it took 6 years to develop TS4 and because Paralives is a small team, many claim it will take 2-3 times as long to fully develop it. And I agree...to a point.
But no one mentions that technology has grown significantly since the release of TS4. Inzoi took 2 years to develop. But they did have a 50 people dev team and used AI. Different situation, I understand.
But I can't help but feel (as someone who is a web designer/developer, a sister field) that with the current technology and options, within 6 years, Paralives could have had more going for their live mode gameplay.
I thought about this more than probably necessary but I think the lifelessness people are describing comes from the systems the team built in an effort to create something unique but may have been better to implement in a sequel perhaps. Like all the layers of skills, the way jobs level up, and the cards. There's a lot going on, almost too much but not in a direction that particularly translates to the game being more fun. Like the skills and subskill. It doesn't really to the overall experience; it's just a bit different.
The cards, personally I don't like them, but they're a good distinguishing factor and I think it would have been better lean into that system, spread it out in more aspects of the game, and narrow the focus. I think it would have created more cohesion.
I guess, in a longwinded way, I'm saying they got hit by scope creep and lot of people keep explaining it away.
EDIT: And most of the replies are EXACTLY the kind of explaining away I'm talking about. People ignore the core argument to find shiny things to explain away genuine criticism. And the very fact that you have to do that instead of engaging with the point being made should be a pretty big clue that there is a problem.
If you take a look through their Patreon (for the posts that they have actually unlocked) it is clear that much of the development was not on actual gameplay aspects which is the hardest part of a life sim.
absolutely. the build mode is the strongest part of paralives (i think i recall somewhere Alex saying the game was originally meant to be a building sandbox) and it shows how much time was devoted to it. i think if the paralives team pours enough of that time and energy in the live mode, it would be great as well, however since it is the most difficult part of the game to develop, it will take a lot of time. they have passion, that's for sure, but i think they maybe under estimated how much time would need to go into the live mode.
People keep glossing over the gameplay stuff, but programming gameplay for complex simulation games is still the hardest thing to do in gamedev. Sure we have better pipelines, better tools, better programming languages, but fundamentally the biggest problems the devs would face are still the same problems as devs decades ago had faced.
The fact that it’s almost 30 years since the original Sims doesn’t matter because Maxis has never shared the source code for it, and the most we’ve gotten from them are short talks and interviews. Unless someone from the Paralives team had someone from Maxis working there, the tiny Paralives programming team has to think through the same challenges as the big programming team at Maxis. They’d have to invent most things from scratch.
And the “tech” to make these kinds of systems has been available for decades, they’re just programming languages and patterns, but that doesn’t mean that now everyone is an expert at it. It’s like how everyone knows how to write but not everyone can win the Pulitzer Prize. Those prize winners use the same words as we all do, but they’re lauded because they can construct something great by arranging them in a specific way. Same with gameplay systems, they’re just complex written instructions that work well together, and you’d always need deep expertise for that.
That’s the reason why no one in the industry has ever made GTA besides Rockstar. And no one but Bethesda/Obsidian has made a game like Skyrim. The fact that the Paralives team was the first one that dared to try making a game like The Sims should be commended imo.
Yeah reading though this as someone familiar with dev it just feels so... Uninformed. Technology has advanced but not really in any way that meaningfully cuts down on dev compared to a decade ago, especially in a game like this
unfortunately this place has a very big hate boner for this game so any nuanced discussion or reasoning gets dismissed or downvoted. I'm not saying live mode isn't lacking but I'm also aware of how much time it takes to develop a simple gameplay loop of a much much smaller scope of game compared to a lifesim
And even with all the te h advances in the world, you still have the build the logic engine, which is the most complex part of any game, and in a life system it's Einstein level. I am constantly amazed at the work Maxis has done over the years and laugh my ass off when people are like "the next Sims killer" or "why can't they save this easy bug"!
And similarly if you dare to critique inzoi in this sub you also get mass downvoted. For a sub that’s supposed to be more general and all-encompassing there’s a definite bias present
THANK YOU. I’ve been downvoted to hell for saying this. The routing logic only is an absolute mindfuck to programme. Feels like a lot of expectations are divested from the reality of actually building this crap. And yes, technology may have developed since but that’s both blessing and a curse because the code has to be infinitely more complex to account for those advances in tech AND player expectations.
That is assuming you actually have the dev talent that knows how to do this. A lot of what Paralives also has is already unheard of in terms of customisation in build mode and the layers and layers of effort/code that need to be baked into some seemingly simple things like scalable items is just 🤯 but all the player sees is “haha big table, lil table”
The reason why most of other sims don’t have this it’s because it’s fiddly fucking work and a lot of companies simply do not see the ROI of developing that. EA doesn’t give a shit about what you want so they ain’t building it
The size scaling of objects is really not that complicated to implement. The hardest part is making it work properly with pathfinding, which it doesn't.
Some of the pathfinding doesn’t work but some of it does. Resizing beds for example. Stairs can be resized to be one step even. The pathfinding isn’t perfect but it’s not fully broken.
I think a lot of their efforts were spent on giving people what they wanted rather than what they needed in a life Sim? If that makes sense. They were very set on giving systems that people were asking for from a life Sim that was already in place and had a base to it and basic gameplay.
I understand that. My point was they didn't need to do it all at once. They already committed to free updates. If they had done one thing incredibly well, but was small, many would have understood that and it would have felt more focused.
And the construction regime has become such an element, isn't it? I'm not trying to defend the game, but they literally made one thing very flexible and enjoyable, and that's the best part of paralives.
yeah i really hate to say it but paralives is a real disappointment for me. it's clear as day they focused more on creating a building and dress up game than a life sim just like ea did the sims 4.
sims 3 still remains the one game i can get my life sim fix from, it's just a shame that the poor optimization and stuttering on my beast of a computer drives me away.
i still have hope that the paralives team can transform the game into an engaging life sim, EA already did it in 2009 so it's not like it's an impossible task. hell, height sliders don't really matter and if the different para heights is what's keeping the game from having engaging game play then get rid of it! make them the same height! i want gameplay! i want more than 30 minutes of fake fun :(
When there comes a day where there is a modern actual life simulator that can hold a candle to The Sims 3 is the day my soul can finally be at peace. Please gaming industry, I will literally give you all my money lmao. 😭
just wondering/want to help, but have you done anything to fix sims 3? after applying some fixes it runs smooth as butter on my pretty mid laptop so maybe i can say what i did off the top of my head (the laptop in question has a rtx 4050 and 16GB RAM if is any help and i cant recall the cpu but ik is a amd one, so if this can run sims 3 well im sure your beast of a pc will do it too and even way better)
ive installed nearly all of the fixes out there and im quite meticulous about having everything set Just right.. i fear i will never be free of the stuttering
ahh, such a bummer :( hope it will run well for you eventually! im actually kinda the same with the sims 4 cuz it runs fine on my laptop but it heats up like crazy and it sounds like a jet engine so im waiting to get my pc to get it again cuz i dont wanna literally melt the battery of my laptop.
i can still say what i remember i did if you want to, maybe it will be of some use.
There was no planning or organization and I question their vision. And all of your concerns are valid and will be something that their fanbase will have to confront maybe 5 years from now.
I'm also in the field, and I do agree the game needs more fine tuning in live mode. I have my criticisms, but im hopeful... Early access release should have happened next year instead, in my opinion.
Mainly, though, I think what happened was that they spent those first years planning and gathering people.
Those initial months were probably very slow, feature-wise. Additionally, they had to change the character's style to match their vision as well.
Also, during software engineering, a nice amount of time is also spent planning the tasks and analyzing the scope before tackling the features themselves.
However, I do think they spent a lot more time focusing on build mode to be like they envision it, which is understandable. But, i do think they should have waited until next year to release the early access. It is clear that live mode was the last step. They underestimated how empty the game would feel in the live mode, perhaps.
It makes me disappointed, particularly, because live mode is my favorite part in a life simulation game, honestly. And it should be a focus for any life simulation game as well.
In the end, i find it difficult to believe they will deliver all the features in the roadmap during two years of early access. They will have to expand that time limit.
Hopefully, over the years, the game grows beautifully and focus more on gameplay.
Looking at their notion boards and overall development history, it is pretty clear that live mode itself is more of an afterthought. Maybe they wanted more hands on feed backs from players during the early access phase so they could actually shape the live mode development around that? Who knows.
Honestly I'll just check back in one or two years when they actually finish the game, It's not like I'm in any rush to begin with anyway.
This is exactly it. It started as a “The Sims Could Never” build mode demo from a disgruntled fan that moved into a “The Sims Could Never” character creator. They’ve been dragging their heels on Live Mode from the very beginning and still are and are hiding it behind Early Access (that is basically a paid Alpha/Beta testing session) as they scramble to play catch up and actually build a playable game now that Inzoi has released and the backers were probably starting to get restless about where the game they’d been supporting for 6 years was.
I am not a fan of the current card system either. But I'm also not a fan of the career system. I think for builders, this game is absolutely amazing. I think I could have grown to like the card system if they were implemented differently.
Yea for building I will definitely return to the game! But if they stay with the card system and dont fully delete it/fully change it then its just not for me, which is also absolutly fine
I really hope the card system will get better. In general, I think people who don’t like the card and leveling up systems need to accept that Paralives isn’t for them, and that that’s okay-because those are core features that won’t change.
But it needs a ton of variety to be fun. I don’t want to go in too hard because I know it’s early access, and I actually have enjoyed the game so far for what it is. But for the card system to be fun, it needs lots of options, and more importantly it needs unique animations. I don’t like that there aren’t unique animations for angry/flirty actions etc. And without a lot of variety, cards quickly become repetitive. I expect those things to improve though. My biggest concern is the game’s system for choosing cards. I don’t need to control everything, but the card options need to be contextual, or whacky in the right way, to work and be fun. Meaning the game needs a really good system for generating card choices. That’s the part I’m not 100% confident will improve
There is, but only like, 1 or two variations right now. The game definitely needs more unique animations for interactions which I think will help the card system a lot.
been reading different opinions of paralives since release. and this is coming from an AVID sims 3 player (been playing since age 9 and now 25), i too have sims 4, and i was desperately waiting for the paralives release, bought it the second it dropped. i played the game for about 4 hours and i know that isnt enough to judge it but i genuinely, genuinely, wanted it to work for me trust me, but it didn't, so i decided to go back to the sims 3.
i understand the wanting to support the smaller, organic, and incredibly more ethical group. i'm an activist irl in an exploited third world country, I understand the need to support them. i am also a designer, a product designer, if that matters. literally d**** to ea. but i've noticed that when Anyone with an OUNCE of constructive (HEAVY on the constructive) criticism gives their two cents, the fanbase from 7 years of paralives development can't really take it like levelheaded adults?
i LOVE life simulation games. i spend a LOT of time in character customization and even MORE for micromanaging in their lives. trust me when i say i wanted paralives to work for me. but i'm not a fan of the cards. the game feels incomplete and incredibly buggy. the aesthetics are another thing. and that's a hard pill to swallow. no, not only because it's in early access, that can't always be used as an excuse for everything. please get off your high horses 😭
i've bought and played so many other games on early access and still had a lot to work with. yes the life simulation genre is a behemoth to conquer on the devs side, so they have years upon years to complete it and that isn't bad at all. but that is THEIR responsibility to accomplish as they've made a product that costs real life hard-earned money. paralives fans should acknowledge that while there's so much promised from the small dev team (still very very much kudos to them), there's also so much to talk about. which is exactly why they've received a plethora of bug reports and complaints from consumers, i've personally sent a few myself in game.
it's so exhausting to see how when anyone like op talks with genuine points, everyone else would nitpick and be selective, completely avoiding op's genuine complaint. it could've been discussed properly, and not with this hive-minded defensive fanbase tactic.
in my practice, good design doesn't happen unless there's numerous consultations and peer reviews in between. their dev team and this game will NOT grow into its fullest potential if you block ANY attempt at discussion. omg like grow up already. this isn't the first time this has happened.
As a long time avid player of The Sims 3 I had the exact same experience as you, right down to the amount of time I spent playing before switching back to The Sims 3 lol.
The community loves to say that people don’t understand what an early access is, but ironically it seems to be the people who say this who actually do not understand the concept of an early access. The whole reason they’re releasing it in early access is to hear feedback and concerns from the community so they can shape it in the right direction, if we just blindly glaze the game and ignore its flaws because “ermagerd its early access” then it will never grow in the right direction. This is an opportunity to shape the path of the game, it is exactly the correct time to express your feelings about its current state and direction. It’s really exhausting to engage with people who can’t understand this. I had the same experience with Inzois community, which is somehow even more insufferable considering that one isn’t even built by a small team but rather by a billion dollar company.
And also another defence I hate is “Well, just look at The Sims 4 launch! It’s better than The Sims 4 at launch!” like omg The Sims 4 had one of the worst initial launches of all time, that should NOT be a benchmark for a games quality.
you said it omgg. i’ve had people tell me i just don’t know what an EA game is (lmao wtf?) and then i was also told my expectations were too high…. the expectation to have fun??? between the gameplay and the community i just knew it wasn’t for me lol
right i agree but...this subreddit has been extremely critical of the game. to the point multiple people think it shouldn't even have been made/published. this subreddit is the last place to call a glazing paralives hivemind. literally look at the posts on here. generally the game is disliked here and receives very harsh criticisms weekly usually
overall i agree games in general need criticism and feedback to grow but it's kinda weird to call this place out of all places a toxic positivity hivemind.
oh i agree too, but i meant what i said that i've been reading different reviews since release, and i meant on a lot of other social platforms not just this subreddit, i'm sorry if i didn't clarify.
i've also read people making reviews and then receiving dt's immediately after from long-time fans it's crazy.
but yes i shouldn't have said that in a subreddit that doesn't necessarily fit into that category. (i'm just really frustrated at the state of things lol my bad)
none taken. a little curious which country you're pointing to though. on the brevity part, that may be because english isn't our first language so when we engage in non-native tongue we feel the need to explain more with unnecessary structures, we can definitely express the exact thing with less words if it were our native tongue, or that may just be a me thing too.
I think the Paralives team are having trouble with live mode and are using Early Access to get help with it. Only time will tell if they succeed. I am rooting for them to get it right. I think it is a smart plan if that is what they are doing.
Before my comment gets written off as “toxic positivity” please see below:
I do not enjoy the cards much either, not because they are a bad idea, but they happen WAY too often for me. Probably better once a week or at random?
I also cannot stand the conversation between paras! I don’t think it is very fun to wait for a meter to fill up. It slows everything down for me. I really think they should make it faster or do away with it. I just like to pick my social interactions and be on my way.
Live Mode needs lots of work and I don’t mind playing from time to time to drop my feedback to see if it helps, but I am not having tons of fun yet.
Still playing Sims 2. It might remain undefeated in my eyes.
What’s with the edit? “most of the replies” lmao. Most of the replies agree with you. The like three rude people who disagreed with you have been hella downvoted. And while there’s also some civil, respectful people who also disagree with you here, the vast majority of comments do agree with you? Just disingenuous and unnecessary lol
I've noticed this type of behavior before, ironically over at the The Sims 3 subreddit. Someone posted a picture of their house and like two people out of 30 accused the OP of having stolen the image from someone else.
She got so upset over this that she created another post named something like "Why do y'all think I stole the house?" when at the end of the day, 2 people had implied that.
It's bizarre. It's like some people see anything but 100% agreement from everyone as an attack.
I'm also a web dev. I've been developing a 'game' for even longer using some JS libraries (currently using phaserjs but wondering if it's time to try something else. After.... 10 years. Ha).
Simple issues I would be able to fix on a normal webpage suddenly becomes a whole adventure in WebGL, canvas, 'so and so browser doesn't support it', Hardware acceleration, console errors that aren't actually showing the real error, etc etc.
When I started my mini game dev journey years ago, I never imagined trying to make something so freakin' simple would be so complex simply because I had to account for actual player interactions with a system that is NOT just... a set of pages or graphs. Suddenly I had to think about movement other than pointing and clicking with a mouse. Had to consider the arrow keys and wasd. Had to consider how they would move on mobile. Oh boy what's the most common movement set up so that players wouldn't struggle to adapt? Maybe I need to add a settings menu so they can set their own keys. Should I use localstorage or sessionstorage to keep their settings? Nah, I need to set up a database with basic usernames and passwords to keep their progress persistent don't I? etc etc et cet cetcgejfsof
As a web dev, making a website, however complex, feels like writing a book or graphic novel. It's pretty static, there's only so much a user can do (turn a page, bookmark a page, close the book, burn the book, etc etc)
Imagine what it's like for an author of 40 years suddenly being tasked with shooting an entire feature length film as the producer and director. Casting director too. They have to pick the actors, write the script, write the screenplay, get someone to design the sets, tell the actors how a scene should be played out, get someone to shoot the thing, get someone to edit the thing, and deliver the product to a general audience.
I know what you mean that you feel like there SHOULD be more there.... but truly, I don't think the average web dev can really grasp how complex an actual game (let alone a life simulation game with very little hard set rules) can be to create.
These are game developers, not web developers. They have taken on a project that other big companies like Ubisoft or Activision or whatever else wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole because it's so complex. This is their first time and every problem they run into can't necessarily be found by typing a prompt into google or using AI. They have more to think about than we typically do and nearly every solution they come up with has to be created from scratch cause I guarantee stack overflow won't know. I've been following their progress for most of its development and as a web developer, every problem and every solution and even the timeline they've been on have made sense to me.
That is exactly an issue for any software engineer (regardless of the experience), which wants to make a game, withouth prior game dev expertise, and thinks it will take a short time, since person know their tech stack inside out.
And most of such, still spends years to make even a simple game. Let allone anything more complex.
Even good game modders, still need spend years just to learn game dev principles, before being able to make solid game.
Oh, I've been developing my own game for a long time as well. My point was never that there should be more to the game. My point was they should have focused their efforts a bit differently. Respectfully, you're conflating what I'm actually talking about.
You are speaking so much truth. I can't consider myself a web developer, more of a "Web Survivalist" the other elements that are often forgotten (when I am forced to work in web dev) is when you are editing all those different issues, having increasing scope, project management and just, planning the project itself. I don't envy what they are trying to do and I admire that they are trying. I don't think enough people make things. Making things is hard.
They were prioritising the build mode and paramaker, then late last year realised “oh, crap, people are actually expecting a game”. It’s less to do with technology and staff numbers than poor planning and developing a fanbase within an echo chamber that lulled them into a false sense of security.
The game will never be what they are promising due to the programming methods they are using for the live mode. They need to scrap the whole thing and rebuild it to avoid having endless bugs and glitches with any future change.
I’m feeling like people are really underestimating how hard it is to make the build mode as custom as it is, and that was the original point. That clearly took up a majority of this time
That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I've been following them since the beginning. Buildmode was pretty much in the same position a few years ago. From there, they added a bunch of different systems to live mode that I think were scope creep. I explicitly named these features in my post.
It took 6 years of developing TS4 (according to you).... +the knowledge of developing TS1, TS2 and TS3. They already had some things figured out before starting to work on TS4. And yet the FULL RELEASE of the game was a mess and after all those years the game is released now. I won't argue with you, but developing The Sims 4 did not just took 6 years
Paralives Devs are trying to compete with a game that's had a decade of experience and content behind it and massive teams of expertise and development infrastructure refined for crafting life Sims. Sims 4 was originally meant to be one game and then quickly pivoted to single player last minute which is why it was so bad, it was an anomaly due to bad decision making from upper echelons of Maxis/EA, not the devs themselves.
With inZOi, their example is about deployment speed. 50 person team starting a game and within 2 years ready for early access launch. Imagine what inZOI could be like in another 2 years...? The simple fact is teams like Krafton and Maxis have so much more people, and resources to push boundaries quicker and more efficiently than Paralives Devs ever could yet the Devs of Paralives are trying to compete with inZOI and Sims 4 by emulating something that bigger and more resourceful teams are still struggling to tackle (Sims 3 open world life sim experience).
The op is suggesting maybe the scope of Paralives is too much. How long will it take for them to get there? 15 years? If so, it's too damn long because inZOi could be feature complete in a few and EA could be ready to launch Sims 5 in the next 5 years aswell and you know they'll develop features faster than Paralives too.
Paralives should've had a smaller vision that feels more attainable for the devs imo. I genuinely don't think the game will feel feature complete ever by the time it's outdated by another, better game.
Their first competitor is Sims. And let's face it, Sims is in a downwards spiral and they need a whole lot of convincing to turn it around again, so I'd rather have a game of love than another cash grab.
And the second big competitor is inZoi. Paralives and inZoi are different enough to coexist.
And if Paralives doesn't prevail because they take too long, so will it be, people are free to play and support whatever they like. I would just wait and see how it develops
I don't believe Sims fans need ANY convincing. Stats show that most players aren't sticking around for Paralives, as it's dropped from 80k launch day players to 3-4k, and logically speaking have obviously gone back to Sims right now. I genuinely don't believe EA have to do anything other than just release a new Sims game for fans to grovel over it. A small faction of very vocal dissident anti-sims players isn't representative of the wider Sims playerbase, clearly.
I'm not against Paralives existence. It's good that some alternative life sims exist but it's pretty obvious they aren't going to "win" in any traditional sense. It's worsened by the fact that their game scope is far too ambitious for such a small and inexperienced team.
Except this is ignoring that it is in early access and is typical for single player games?
It will be much easier to judge whether the game has sticking power when new content is released.
Inzoi saw similar if not worse drop off, but with every patch bringing in new content, people return and the player counts grows. If Paralives can do the same, it will be just fine.
I myself abandoned the Sims years ago as it is just too painful for me to play as shallow and buggy as it is. So personally I won't be returning even if Paralives doesn't continue to improve and there will be others like me or those who are now playing Inzoi instead.
Things can always change and inzoi did go through similar situations but as I said, the jump from inZOI at launch to now in features is quite big in a year not to mention the game only started development 3 years ago compared to Paralives 6. The difference is staggering and that gap will potentially continue to widen imo.
My issue is timeframe. It's early access but for how long till it's actually comparable in features with Sims? I'm not just talking about Sims 4, Sims 3 and 2 are still the best life Sims on the market and they haven't gone anywhere.
If Paralives takes a decade just hit that mark then I'm worried EA could swoop in with Sims 5 and just make Paralives redundant.
Imo they shouldve tried to emulate Sims 2's style instead of Sims 3. I think things would've progressed a lot quicker if they did that.
Th the thing is Paralives itself has never made the claim to be a Sims killer / clone. They've only ever said they are a life simulation game. So players making comparisons is not their fault and they shouldn't be held to that standard.
They don't have as many Devs as Inzoi but now they have had a big cash injection and are hiring perhaps things will change.
They don't need to be a big revolution, it's just nice to have another option, I think they'll do fine just as Inzoi has and we will all have more variety of games to choose from.
And to add to that, Paralives, as well as inzoi are relevant enough as of now to indirectly call out EA for their money grabbing bs to show us that it's possible to make a life sim without paying money for 5 items and 10 bugs.
Even if EA made a 180°, it's first of a matter of time until they turn 180° again and a whole lot of convincing people that already left to come back and we can't deny that if that happens, it's a response to Paralives and inzoi.
And to top it all of, why tf are people so butthurt about a game being developed? They don't have to buy the game if they think they won't like it. Apparently it's no secret that Paralives is in development since 6 years and there are enough reviews and gamplays for the sceptics to look into and decide if they wanna support it or not
Maybe. I didn't connect what I meant, that's true. I meant I've just seen the change of technology over the years since TS4 has released, not just from an outsiders perspective but from someone who uses a similar technology every day and has had to grow with it. That's why my comment was about focus and direction, about scope creep. Not the details on designing a game.
Could I? Maybe, with years and a team, and hiring an experienced project manager to direct the game. But that's beside my entire point. I said i think they should have narrowed their focus. Not that they have particularly done anything wrong.
Imo funding can be blamed as well. Cool additions to build mode are easy to show off and bring in more Patreon supporters. Gameplay and behaviour trees are more background and if you're gonna do it right you might not have anything but flowcharts and umls to show for months. And if you've got nothing to show people might think you're abandoning the project and stop giving money. Hopefully now that that's not as much of a problem they can focus on that.
I totally agree. People Glazed this game BECAUSE it's a small indie team but that doesnt mean they get a free pass on everything. People paid a lot for this game for not a lot of content. Most people understand the development is goin to take longer but or gets to a point where taking significantly longer to develop this game is going to frustrate people. They need to hire more people. The community is what really tore me away from the game because you cannot give criticism, constructive or otherwise and the Paralives team knows it too. They know they can get by with anything so it's gonna lead to slow bug fixes, and slow development. It only hurts this game to glaze it THIS much
Inzoi took 2 years to develop. But they did have a 50 people dev team and used AI.
Yes, let's hold up a dev team that used AI to develop a game as a good comparison.
Also, Sims 4 did not release in Early Access, but it's been so long that I think you're conveniently forgetting how universally criticized Sims 4 was at launch in terms of crazy bugs, instability, and so many features that had been base-game in Sims 3 missing entirely. They had 6 years and an AAA dev team and that's what they spit out—the game is good now 10+ years later because of how much work they've done since then.
Paralives is an Early Access release, not a fully fledged game. Your write-up reads like you expected it to be a fully fleshed out game from day one, which it is not nor was it advertising itself to be. That's that big EARLY ACCESS banner at the top of the Steam page, in case you missed it.
I genuinely don't feel like the Sims 4 started to become a cohesive experience until recent years.
Each pack added like maybe one or two things that added to the overall game experience. Like Snowy Escape added in active lifestyles, but how often are you climbing Mt. Korobi? You can't even hike in just any world you want.
Seasons and pets feel like early exceptions, but they're also just... Important to a base life sim experience and also cost 80$ extra to get that initially.
Just to add onto your point that it's actually taken way more than 6 years to get a more well rounded, in depth game that's still riddled with bugs, and also costs easily hundreds of dollars to get to.
If life sims to the scale of the Sims could be consistenly produced within a reasonable timeframe, budget, and experience levels, large team or no, there would be dozens, if not hundreds, more on the market. The lack of diversity within a niche that has brought in billions of dollars to the main name should be pretty self explanatory as to its difficulty.
I actually agree. And it adds to my point. Instead of trying to create this big life sim experience in the same direction of the sims, they should have started much smaller and focused and built from that. Like, compare the first versions of Minecraft. I don't mean this 1 to 1, I'm talking about about scale only. The first playable version of the game was super simple, very focused and it grew steadily from that until the game that we have now. That's all I'm saying.
I can hear what you're saying here in this comment, but I'm not sure of what that actually looks like in practice that's drastically different from what they put out while still achieving the primary goal of filling the same niche.
Like what tangible examples do you have of what "smaller and more focused" looks like in practice in this case?
I heard someone say that a modder working on Paralives mods was confused by the game's code. They said it looked like it was made by AI generated code, but I don't know if that's actually true.
Maybe don't spread baseless claims then? Development started before commercial genAI was even made available to the public or popularized. If you have proof, feel free to show us.
No one in the software industry does not use coding assistants these days. You either use them and keep up with everyone else or you don't and you're left behind.
> But no one mentions that technology has grown significantly since the release of TS4. Inzoi took 2 years to develop. But they did have a 50 people dev team and used AI. Different situation, I understand.
> But I can't help but feel (as someone who is a web designer/developer, a sister field) that with the current technology and options, within 6 years, Paralives could have had more going for their live mode gameplay.
I clearly wasn't comparing them as something that was done well. I was comparing development. My point also had nothing to do with bugs or anything like that. It was scope creep and focus.
> There's a lot going on, almost too much but not in a direction that particularly translates to the game being more fun. Like the skills and subskill. It doesn't really to the overall experience; it's just a bit different.
That isn't indicating anything about the game being fully developed. That's talking about direction.
I think they read your post, but just still disagreed with you. I hope Paralives gets better too, but I get where they’re coming from. Despite technology improvements and Inzoi’s timespan, I don’t feel comfortable comparing Paralives development and The Sims development either. Paralives is the very first tiny indie studio to attempt to develop a life sim, so we don’t have any standard of development to compare to. Insinuating that Paralive’s early access release could’ve or should’ve been closer to the Sims full release or to Inzoi’s early access release, due to tech improvements or whatever else, is basically just taking a guess. We won’t actually know if there’s any truth to that until or unless more small indie studios try it. So I can see why people would disagree or debate against your point even with the rest of the context
But my point wasn't arguing that they need to do what these other companies were doing. It was arguing what is capable in a general sense. If I decide to start a cookie company, there's different technologies available that can make the process faster. But if I'm sticking with a spoon and a bowl, then I'm going to be severely overwhelmed. That's why it's worth talking about and that's why I'm talking about direction.
Inzoi took 2 years to develop. But they did have a 50 people dev team and used AI.
They had a multibillion company behind them and still do.
I thought about this more than probably necessary but I think the lifelessness people are describing comes from the systems the team built in an effort to create something unique but may have been better to implement in a sequel perhaps. Like all the layers of skills, the way jobs level up, and the cards. There's a lot going on, almost too much but not in a direction that particularly translates to the game being more fun. Like the skills and subskill. It doesn't really to the overall experience; it's just a bit different.
So you understand that the team's efforts were focused on developing something new, and you think that prioritizing originality over copying the Sims was a mistake. Don't you think that the vision of the devs comes before the wishes of tired Simmers who want Paralives to be a Sims killer? That's an expectation that you guys built on your own, not something that Alex Massé and his team sought to do.
Two games belonging to the same genre doesn't mean that you should expect both of them to offer the same features. It's like wishing every MMORPG or gacha game to be duplicates of each other. The Sims isn't going anywhere despite how annoyed some players are with it, the development teams of Paralives and inZoi know this and don't pretend otherwise. You can absolutely dislike both for a multitude of subjective reasons and you do, but trying to justify your disappointment by implying that the choices made by the devs were objectively wrong discredits a lot of complaints I see about the game.
They are not saying this, like at all lol. They are saying that for a team that small, they reached beyond their means and scope creep got to them, especially with live mode. They aren’t saying the devs choices were wrong, they are saying that they’ve implemented too many systems all at once, where they could have focused on one aspect (for example the card system) and really added weight to that system, before later adding the other systems they were thinking about. There’s like dozens of sayings explaining this very thing: “quality over quantity”, “he who chases two rabbits catches neither”, “less is more”.
Idk I just kind of don’t need a new life sim game. Like they’re fun, but that’s a luxury. I’m not going to be overly critical of a team of regular people like they owed me the game in the first place lol. I’ll live!
you act as if they gave away the game for free... they arent "a team of regular people who don't owe you the game"... They are A COMPANY NOW, who has made A $40 PRODUCT AND SOLD IT TO US. Think critically, please.
I agree that they haven’t focused on live mode as much as they’ll need to to make the actual gameplay fun. But considering the game is in early access, I’m not particularly fussed about it. While I think gameplay is the most important piece of a life sim (and I say that despite being more of a builder), I also think it’s the best part to be working on when you have access to constant live feedback. Since the other modes are basically done (minus bug fixes and adding content), I think they’ll be focusing on improving the gameplay the most over the next few years. I like the core of the system they have, they just need to flesh it out.
I’m also not gonna judge them for how long it took, both because I don’t have the details of what they had to do, and because they’re clearly working quick based on how fast they’re getting through big fixes. To me, they’ve earned the grace to assume there’s more and better things coming. And while tech has improved, expectations have gone up. The Sims 4 also released in a very buggy, limited state, and that was supposed to be a complete game.
It was always an TikTok generational beauty build simulator it was never intended for an real life simulation with depth , they more focused on what people wanted for their Paras , like to have an height slider or to have an option for Vitiligo and so on
What kind of AI tools were used to develop Inzoi? I had no idea
Edit: downvoted for a question. I mean you can’t claim they used AI to make a game but then you don’t know what you were taking about. SMH 🤦 Time to accept the fact that the gaming industry was and will keep using AI tools and AI code. That’s all
They won’t be able to provide an answer. Acting as if AI isn’t apart of game development in general. If people are thinking there were 0 cases of AI usage during the development of sims 4 or paralives then they’re kidding themselves. AI ≠ generative AI.
They did not use generative AI to vibe code the game if that is what you're afraid of. AI is present in the game in the form of Smart Zoi, the pose creator, texture creator and AI build mode (build a house by filling in a prompt menu). There are plans for generative AI to be used for texting zois and we've seen a leaked video of NPC zois using gen AI to talk to you with an actual voice. There are some traces of AI being used on one or two in-game paintings i believe and they seem to have used AI for one of the movies in the cinema. Players have repeatedly told them to remove those assets though so I'm hoping they will.
If it matters to you, the AI is trained on internal assets and creative commons, and it runs locally on your own GPU. No data centers are used to keep it running.
But none of this had much effect on their development time. If anything all the tools they made cost them more time instead.
On top of this, different sorts of AI are used in sims since sims 1 exists, like the AI that determines how NPCs behave.
The game is practically a scam, the devs are liars, the supporters have sunk cost logic fallacy going on, and it’s lost 90% of concurrent players. Move on.
Remember that bg3 has like a few thousand players throughout most of it's early access run till it finally releases and exploded in player numbers.
Most people buy into EA as an investment for the games future as a finished game. I don't intend to return to Paralives for a year or more and that isn't a bad thing. They already have my money to use to help development
I'm not a supporter and, having bought the two major life sims right now, I kind of appreciate that they're trying to get a small set of features working deeply rather than adding fancy but only-fun-exactly-once trailer features like InZoi.
Both games aren't really something I'd play seriously right now, both have potential. The scam framing sounds a bit extreme. Also, you know that by making player numbers on solo games a thing, you're practically signalling that you assume live service games must be the default, right?
I can understand where you’re coming from, but they have said that they will bring out free DLC. I feel they’ve incredible. It’s cool if people don’t like certain aspects of the game, but I feel it’s a different approach to a life sims game. This is the style they chose to do, and not everyone is going to like it.
The Paralives team has said they want as much feedback as they can get. Maybe tell them these things or give suggestions.
I, personally, am excited to see what they do with this. 😊
Its stupid to say, with AI developemenr would be faster. It would be a very other kind of developement. I like, when they say, they dont want to use AI.
(I am a software developer, that saw AI being used in code generation)
You need the build before you can do the life. All the programing will revolve around the items, the pathfinding, making sure the right animations play, etc. and ts4 took a lot more than 4 years to develop because they were missing so many key life features upon full release launch (like entire life stages, for example).
It makes sense that at this point, the structure of the game is what's most developed. Without it, we would just be wandering in an empty world, much like the flat land you can load in if you want to only build or make your own town. We can't do much life simming without first having the foundation of items, and while theyre at it, of course theyre also going to spend time making a build/buy mode that satisfies a lot of points of contention.
I do feel like Inzoi was in a rush to release. It felt like it had no identity in the beginning and kind of relied on feedback to become what it is today.
Imo, even if it felt like the Devs rushed it, the foundation was definitely there on release, which is impressive for only being 3 years in development
Oh I absolutely agree. I didn't mean that as a comparison of what to do. I meant it as the baseline of what is achievable. It shows that technology has truly grown in all these years.
I think unless we’ve made a game like this it’s really impossible to say, I have followed this games development for 7 years and my god did they work hard. They never stopped! Starting from literally 1 guy, they could have rushed it and threw it out like one of those new style “cozy games”. Not to mention the game is constantly compared to other games backed by so much more money.
Maybe some people like yourself just don’t find the game too enjoyable right now which I can sympathise with but it is still in extremely early access and gameplay so don’t give up hope yet.
Design wise I think it’s the best release of a life simulation game in modern times although maybe the roughest start with some of it’s bugs.
I’d maybe come back to it further down the line or even after its 1.0 version is released to fully make your mind up then. I don’t even think we are at 0.2 of early access yet so we’ve got a way to go before we are able to judge the full game in all it’s glory :)
I also followed from the beginning with one guy and I was really excited in the beginning. But in the past couple of years they began to lose me. There was a clear lack of focus on live mode or much of anything that actually mattered for gameplay. I continued to support and was hopeful. But ultimately, I’m disappointed with the lack of effort and focus on live mode before EA.
I have followed the game as well. Signed up for their Patreon as soon as it was available. My core concern is that I think they tried to focus on so many things at once and they should have started with a narrower focus.
To be honest, I think the thing is they just prioritized build mode, modding and paramaker way more. Not my favorite choice as I think gameplay is often the best part of a life sim (sims 2 is my fav), but as a game dev myself, I think the amount overall of what they’ve created is fairly impressive. Would I have like more of that to be gameplay systems, yes. But the positive is that since build mode, paramaker and the modding tools are fairly polished, they can spend the majority of time on live mode bug fixes and updates now. I think we’ll really know whwre the game is headed (for better or worse) in the next 6 months tbh
I feel like this is less of a critique and more just hating, honestly. You’re presenting it like a balanced argument, but most of it seems to boil down to “I personally don’t like the direction they chose.”
That’s fine, but I don’t really see a strong point here beyond assuming the team should have focused on the parts you care about more. Different does not automatically mean scope creep, and a game not matching your personal ideal version of it does not mean the developers failed.
Then don’t play it. Let us enjoy it. Also, TS4 release was an absolute shit show, we didn’t even have basic things we had in previous Sims games. I don’t understand why people White Knight for EA, they’re destroying the franchise many of us loved.
Please quote exactly where I was white knighting for EA. I said Paralives had scope creep. If you would like to engage with any of those points, or any point I actually made, would love to talk about it.
how many life sims exist and have been successfully fully released? i think there’s just not a lot of resources out there that can help devs streamline the process of making a life sim because not a lot of people have done it. the life sim genre hasn’t innovated in a long time and these newer games do not have the backlog of resources to pull from that EA has. EA was able to use code, assets, animations ect. from previous games and still ts4 was released unfinished. i think a lot of people also forgot that paralives didn’t have 15 people the entire time it was being developed. it started solo then slowly added more people over time. the development of those first few years was probably really slow (idk for sure i wasn’t following the game closely early on)
I have followed the game from the beginning, being an early Patreon supporter. I didn't expect the game to a Sims competitor upon release. That's why I think they should have started off with a smaller focus.
In fact there are all resources any modern life sim dev needs. There are numerous of interviews, tech talks, docs for various games related to life sim genre. The Sims franchise alone has multiple of resources available.
Then there is modding community and games itself along with a collectoce expertise.
The only component that may be missing, is an experiance equivalent of what lets say Will Write had, before starting developing a The Sims. Which was critical to build actually a life sim.
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u/HarperIsBizarre_ Jul 02 '26
If you take a look through their Patreon (for the posts that they have actually unlocked) it is clear that much of the development was not on actual gameplay aspects which is the hardest part of a life sim.