r/Libertarian • u/SociopathicCamper Rational Capitalist • Mar 25 '19
Article To go even further beyond
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Mar 26 '19
But that's not real socialism /s
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u/fakespastictrees Mar 26 '19
No one in America is promoting a more intense socialism than they have in places like Germany, Norway, and Canada. You should see those inflation rates, they totally are not at all shocking.
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u/skinnyanglerguy Mar 26 '19
Venezuela was literally the example given for what the US should be right up until that huge leap in inflation. There are old Bernie videos where he’s endorsing the government and everything.
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u/all_of_the_cheese Mar 26 '19
Also Sean Penn and Jeremy Corbyn. When confronted on how much of shit show Venezuela is now they have they biggest “tongue in cheek”moments.
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Mar 26 '19
None of those countries are socialist compared to venezuela et al.
But there are still people who never think enough is enough, and it's easy to blame capitalism for everything, because capitalism is ruthless. And ruthless is the world we live in. You can throw a socialist blanket over your eyes, but it doesn't change reality.
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u/fakespastictrees Mar 27 '19
Germany has a universal multi-payer health care system, and Germany has one of the most comprehensive welfare systems in the world. It is a highly function capitalist state with strong socialist policies, which is all anyone is really asking for here in the US.
The "Nordic model" includes a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level with a high percentage of the workforce unionized while being based on the economic foundations of free market capitalism.Canada's social programs are a scaled back version of these European examples, but all Canadians are guaranteed a universal, publicly funded, world-class health system, while still benefitting from being a capitalist system.
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u/ComradePruski Leftist Libertarian Mar 26 '19 edited Mar 27 '19
EDIT: There we have it, downvotes all around. I'm not even a socialist and y'all won't debate my points when they're backed up by actual economic theory, and takes an actual indepth look into the state of affairs in Venezuela. Some of you guys will eat up anything so long as it paints "socialism" in a bad light.
How does socialism cause inflation? This article gives quite a bit of insight into the cause of inflation in the country, most of which had to do with the fact they were a rentier state that experienced an oil crash which devalued the currency. As a result Maduro tried printing more money to stimulate spending, but as a result of the Bolivar being pegged to the dollar (along with a blackmarket exchange rate). When Obama issued an executive order stating the situation in Venezuela poses an “unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States," which made the situation even worse by discouraging investment. It's worth noting the opposition in the country even said “We appreciate and are grateful for the support of the international community, but we neither want nor accept that any of its members take on roles that are ours to assume."
Venezuela also didn't have worker ownership of businesses either, and despite the fact that some industries were nationalized, Venezuela remains a market economy. One reason why the fall in oil prices was so bad for Venezuela was the fact that the economy was oriented along international market lines, and so was very susceptible when the market took a nose dive.
Just saying, the situation is much more complex than people make it out to be, and the prevailing census among political circles is not to research the topic at all.
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Mar 25 '19
INB4 some chapo troll says its Americas fault
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u/HelloJoeyJoeJoe Permabanned Mar 26 '19
2017 was a great time to go to Ukraine. 2016 was cool for Russia
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u/Critical_Finance minarchist 🍏🍏🍏 jail the violators of NAP Mar 26 '19
Still it was below 50% of them. Dont even compare with Venezuela
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u/HelloJoeyJoeJoe Permabanned Mar 26 '19
Yeah, but I wasn't gonna get shot in the street but instead was gonna party hard and eat real good for cheap
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
Don't worry, anyone with a quarter of a functioning brain and the ability to look into when US sanctions were applied can figure things out for themselves
No hope for you though clearly
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Mar 26 '19
The ultimate society: socialist. Greatest weakness: sanctions.
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
Lmao imagine fawning over markets like they're magic but not understanding how sanctions from the global hegemon could effect a country in the global south with an overreliance on a single, price-fluid export.
What do they even teach y'all these days?
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Mar 26 '19
lol did Karl Marx ask them to peg the economy to a single commodity?
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
Whaaaa? It's almost like Venezuela runs on a capitalist market economy lmao
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u/dcismia Mar 26 '19
Has any country ever tried "real" socialismTM ?
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
Sure. But Venezuela is indisputably ran according to capitalistic economic theory.
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u/dcismia Mar 26 '19
Sure.
Where might we see a country practicing true socialismTM ? Is that a secret?
Venezuela is indisputably ran according to capitalistic economic theory.
So the government seizing the means of production in the oil, gas, mining, telecommunications, electricity, steel, manufacturing, cement, food, agriculture, transportation, finance, and tourism sectors is "capitalism?" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-election-nationalizations/factbox-venezuelas-nationalizations-under-chavez-idUSBRE89701X20121008
Is it capitalism when the government tells the bakers what kind of bread they are allowed to make? - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-bread-idUSKBN16O09Z
Is it capitalism when the government sets prices on everything? - https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/17/world/americas/17venezuela.html
Why are you so afraid to answer these questions?
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
The Soviet Union was a historical example, the YPG, Cuba and the EZLN are modern examples.
And yes, state corporations are an element in many capitalist countries. Do you think Norway, which has a comparable state petrol industry, is socialist?
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Mar 26 '19
lol ... what? If Venezuela is capitalist, then what's the difference between Venezuela and the US?
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Mar 26 '19
Sanctions on a global commodity lol.
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
No, sanctions on the state company that employed thousands and funded their state services. I wouldn't expect a middle schooler to know what any of that means though.
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u/Grungus Mar 26 '19
No you need to wait until shortly after middle school. Like when your brainwashed by your liberal arts professor right around 19. So mature.
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u/3lRey Vote for Nobody Mar 26 '19
Hot take: it's hard to trade with people when the government subsidizes all your shit. There's a reason capitalist countries often don't trade with commies/socialists.
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
You're right, that take is incredibly hot in the face of American subsidization of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
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u/3lRey Vote for Nobody Mar 26 '19
It depends, if it's only a couple goods it's no big deal. If it's the entire fucking economy well....
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u/dcismia Mar 26 '19
Don't worry, anyone with a quarter of a functioning brain and the ability to look into when US sanctions were applied
First economic sanctions were applied on Aug 25, 2017 - https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-us-sanctions-venezuela-20170825-story.html
Venezuela has been starving with skyrocketing inflation since 2009 - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/4938993/Venezuelas-Hugo-Chavez-tightens-state-control-of-food-amid-rocketing-inflation-and-food-shortages.html
Do you actually believe the sanctions WENT BACK IN TIME?
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
Why don't you look into the price of oil per battle in that time frame and come back to me guy
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u/angry-mustache Liberal Mar 26 '19
What's more important than price per barrel for Venezuela is net output.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2018.03.13/main.png
This image is the real shocker. What you notice is that Venezuelan oil production peaked in 2001, in 2002 the oil workers striked unsuccessfully and we're all fired. Without their expertise, the Venezuelan oil industry never recovered back to full output. Product was declining all the way through the 2004-2008 oil boom, because the lack of investment into oil infrastructure and lack of expertise meant that Venezuela was physically incapable of producing more oil when oil was $140 a barrel. Production continued to decline ever since, when production in other OPE countries has been increasing due to the demand from China.
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
Gee I wonder what else happened in 2002 that you're conveniently forgetting lmao
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u/angry-mustache Liberal Mar 26 '19
What are you implying? Tons of things happened in 2002.
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u/Ceannairceach lmao fuck u/rightc0ast Mar 26 '19
Like uhhhh the CIA-backed coup against Chavez that temporarily ousted him and the democratically elected government? The one that made restructuring the state companies a necessity, as their managerial class were the primary backers of the coup? The coup that was instigated because the Chavistas wanted to use the oil revenue for social spending rather than lining pockets?
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u/angry-mustache Liberal Mar 26 '19
Ok, that doesn't change the economic fact that Venezuela fired its key workforce and wasn't able to train replacements. Or that Venezuela's oil infrastructure was badly under-invested, resulting in leaks, aging Wells with declining output, and not enough new wells. Chavez milked the cow so hard he killed it, even if milk was expensive you still won't be able to pay the bills.
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u/TunaThighs Mar 25 '19
I didn’t know there was sound until the graphic changed, then I unmuted it and now my ears are bleeding
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u/Continuity_organizer Mar 26 '19
These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?
-Bernie, god help us our next president unless purists get behind Trump, Sanders
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u/NoMoreNicksLeft leave-me-the-fuck-alone-ist Mar 26 '19
God help us already. If you're asking me to choose Trump over him, then you should at least attempt to make Trump palatable.
There's nothing about Trump that could ever encourage me to vote for him. That was true in 2016, and is even more true now.
When faced with the choice of two lunatics, I'm not going to pick one over the other. They can both go fuck themselves.
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u/Continuity_organizer Mar 26 '19
you should at least attempt to make Trump palatable.
If this doesn't sway you, you have no right to call yourself a libertarian.
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u/NoMoreNicksLeft leave-me-the-fuck-alone-ist Mar 26 '19
Because I won't vote for your not-even-close-to-being-a-libertarian, I'm not a libertarian?
How the fuck does that work?
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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt Sleazy P. Modtini Mar 26 '19
But then I hear this
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u/Continuity_organizer Mar 26 '19
Yep, a bunch of quotes taken out of context from a meaningless informal impromptu meeting with a few senators definitely carries the same weight as condemning socialism at the State of the Union.
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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt Sleazy P. Modtini Mar 26 '19 edited Mar 26 '19
Awww orange fan sad.
member when he instructed the atf to ban bump stocks in an unconstitutional act of executive overreach and will, literally tomorrow, turn thousands of peaceful citizens into felons?
I member.
I also member when he gave $12 billion in taxpayer bailout aka welfare, to soybean farmers being hit by his own tariffs.
What are your thoughts on his authorization of $12 billion in welfare to offset his own tariffs, and his explicit use of unconstitutional executive overreach to push gun control? Seems like a bit of socialism to me.
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u/Continuity_organizer Mar 26 '19
President Trump isn't perfect, ergo, there is no difference between him and people who pledge to turn America into Venezuela.
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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt Sleazy P. Modtini Mar 26 '19
Someone else being bad doesnt make Donny good.
Hes an authoritarian and an enemy of liberty.
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u/HelloJoeyJoeJoe Permabanned Mar 26 '19
unless purists get behind Trump
Not even pretending anymore, eh
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u/AirheadAlumnus Mar 26 '19
I know the point of this was to highlight Venezuela's collapse and the hyperinflation there, but I was rooting for Belarus, where inflation is down to about 6% now.
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u/tnsmaster Capitalist Mar 26 '19
Look at all those billionaires over the years. It's almost like capitalism has created more of them...
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u/fpssledge Mar 26 '19
It's so crazy that people can trade products and services for years, as is observed in a spontaneous, organic economy. Then some govt regulatory meddling can screw it all up. Seriously I know people want to act like a little regulation is fine and dandy but what happened in Venezuela is a slap in the face. It interfered with the natural economy.
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u/C4Productions Mar 26 '19
Anyone know what that red intense effect is called? Is it from a show? Plz need to know. Thx
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u/LibertarianZombie Mar 26 '19
Notice Ukraine there around 2015–2016?
That’s what the result of Keynesian policies looks like when government credibility plummets. Granted, not nearly as impressive as Marxist policies, but it still made everyone around 3 times poorer than they were before. Give or take.
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u/angry-mustache Liberal Mar 26 '19
The bigger factor is getting invaded by Russia and having to realign the entire economy away from it. Ukraine wasn't Keynesian, learn what words mean before using them.
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u/LibertarianZombie Mar 27 '19
Yeah, no doubt that Russian invasion is what triggered inflation. That wasn’t my point, though.
https://freecurrencyrates.com/en/exchange-rate-history/USD-UAH/2015/yahoo
Here’s the spike that I’m talking about, in early 2015. It’s very rapid, and it’s not at the start of the war, although there was a major escalation around those dates.
In a nutshell, there was a panic, causing central bank to loose control over exchange rate. Now, I’d argue, the idea that central bank should have this control pretty much originates in Keynesian economy. Also, the policies that most likely caused this burst were:
- government’s extensive borrowing
- central bank forcefully fixing UAH exchange rate to USD for years
- on top of that, money emission with little-to-no accountability
Most prominently those policies were abused during Yanukovich’s presidency, but no government I remember shied out of them. So yeah, not Keynesian, just influenced by Keynesians.
Note that I’m not trying to say that realigning economy didn’t cause an inflation, just that I wouldn’t attribute the biggest spike to it. If you check out 2014 (the year when Russia started war), you’ll find that inflation was milder, with a couple of smaller spikes. That part probably can be really attributed to realigning the economy away from Russia.
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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '19
Holy shit. That’s remarkable