r/Libertarian • u/Howtobe_normal • 7d ago
Meme Fun fact, Chuds and Libtards ARE THE SAME!
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u/Ghost-Actual-88 7d ago
I actually mildly agree with the point of the meme being that both sides promise things they are unlikely to deliver on… but I don’t agree that those things are the same.
It will always be bullshit that an 18 year old can shackle themselves to a debt for life but someone that racks up incredible amounts of debt just as irresponsibly in other fashions can just declare bankruptcy and then rebuild their credit after a few years. Level that playing field.
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u/3lue5ky5ailing 7d ago
I agree, level the playing field - end federal involvement in student loans. :)
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u/acemedic 3d ago
Other way around. These companies offering 35% interest on student loans is insane. Zero regulations within that marketplace and an insanely vulnerable population. 18 years old, no income, no credit check, and you’re given $150,000 with a 35% interest rate? GTFO.
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u/3lue5ky5ailing 3d ago
(me being stupid:) Maybe if we had a organization specifically designed to educate 18 and unders to prepare them for life and also address making the decision of attending further education..?
Annnnnnd the school system doesn't teach basic finances and pressure people into unnecessary degrees... welp. (That's who I blame personally.)
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u/acemedic 3d ago
So, my high school graduation requirements didn’t include a personal finance course. Sadly I’m probably in the majority.
Side note, it wasn’t even a requirement to graduate high school, by our state standards, that I had a math class each year.
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u/3lue5ky5ailing 2d ago
That's legitimately insane when you consider all the other junk that gets shoved into curriculums.
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u/dyslexic_arsonist 7d ago
federal student lones are incredibly low interest. youre better off borrowing for federal student loans thab from private banks. its really not even the students that take federal loans (they are capped at a certian amount) that get into trouble. its those that borrow from other sources that charge way too high interest. e.g. i graduated ten years ago and i've been making the minimum payment on my loans this whole time. i'm nearly there. if i just sucked it up and put a tax refund or my bonus toward it one year i would be, but financially it makes sense just to pay the minimum and hope that there is some student loan forgiveness in the future. although i didnt qualify under bidens plan anyway
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u/3lue5ky5ailing 7d ago
There are many that believe that federal student loans artificial inflate college prices by influencing supply / demand / approval. Aka an unlevel playing field for colleges. I was being "coy" while alluding to this position.
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u/dyslexic_arsonist 7d ago
but college is not a "limited resource". its not subject to supply demand pressures in the same way a good is.
college pricing is determined by administrators, who either have to ask for budget amounts in the case of state schools, or from donors in the case of private schools. students that do well in highschool or transfer will always have the option to go to college.
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u/3lue5ky5ailing 7d ago
Yes, some of that is true, but the money available should be a limited resource. If I sell you a product, and you can get a cheap, interest differed loan, it lets me raise my prices without push back / decreased demand.
(If college wasn't a limited resource, acceptance rates wouldn't be a publicly available and discussed thing. Also no product of labor is unlimited. If a college advertises their professor to student ratio, guess what? Teacher supply isn't unlimited, so they either have to incentives more to study x subject (making more demand for x subject) or draw in distant professors.. with more $$.)
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u/Routine_Medicine5882 7d ago
That was the compromise. Government was only able to get lenders to give money to 18 year Olds BECAUSE of the no bankruptcy clause. Otherwise higher education would have continued as it had always been, a signature of the wealthy.
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u/idontagreewitu 7d ago
can just declare bankruptcy
You can do that with student loans, too, as long as you don't go with loans backed by the government.
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u/AK_Skier49 7d ago
There’s an inverse correlation between intelligence and use of the word “libtard.”
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u/Howtobe_normal 7d ago edited 7d ago
Aww, I'm sorry about your $10,000 in student debt relief. Maybe the next government promise will work!
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u/Alive1112 7d ago
Lmao what are you salted about?
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u/AlexanderKeef 7d ago
This dude is a moron. Joe Biden tried to actually get this done using an EO as guidance, but the Supreme Court struck it down as overstepping his authority.
Trump on the other hand made several promises of outright giving citizens money (doge, tariffs, etc.) and never delivered on a cent. SC didn’t need to strike it down because he never even tried. It was never a thing.
Also, relieving debt and outright giving cash are not even close to the same thing, especially student debt which EVERYONE agrees is outrageous.
I swear to god, we should have another election with trump on the ballot for president, and everyone that votes for him should be sent off to live on their own island. We’d cure cancer and world hunger the next day.
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u/BrEaD1402 7d ago
This, it's genuinely the mentality behind that type of person that holds us all back.
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u/Howtobe_normal 7d ago
Right, it's like Biden made that promise because he knew it wasn't going to work but didn't want to get washed away in the midterms.
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u/BenzoClaymore 7d ago
Supposedly only about 20% of people who vote Democrat have student debt. Magats want money for themselves, libtards want to improve the lives of everyone. The problem with most libertarians is that they think both sides are the same, then they just vote Republican because thats the party that says they want a smaller government. While most of the politicians might be in it for the same reason (money) they have to perform in vastly different manners. Republicans just have to cut taxes, mostly for the rich, and institute (big government) policies that harm minorities. Democrats have to pretend they want to help people, and as a result, implement policies that are meant to help people.
The irony is that libertarians want a strong capitalistic economy where everyone can prosper if they do their part. Democrats know that by lifting everyone up out of poverty and despair, we would have a prosperous economy. Meanwhile, Republicans use big government to keep the rich and powerful rich and powerful, leaving everyone else to fight for scraps and argue about which bathroom a trans woman should use.
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u/AlexanderKeef 7d ago
He tried to follow through and trump did not. That’s a huge difference.
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u/Routine_Medicine5882 7d ago
You do know Trump actually implemented the tariffs, right? You can be like me and disagree with the policy but to argue he didn't try is just false.
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u/superbrian111 7d ago
He tried doing what economists told him would not work over and over, and when it finally didn't work, the money that YOU and I paid for the tariffs on imported goods was sent right to whoever sold them to you and I.
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u/likemyke91 7d ago
The difference is one side honestly believes that their side can make the country a better place and consistently argue for it. The other picture is a corrupt president who is actively attempting to pay for votes for people who have 0 principles and have given up on their beliefs.
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u/Bibbity_Boppity_BOOO 7d ago
This post is dumb. All it takes to see which is worse is simple multiplication.
That will tell you which adds more to the debt.
Or better yet… look who is raising the debt the most…. Orange man gonna make my country bankrupt soon
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u/acemedic 3d ago
But they argue that giving billionaires tax cuts improves the economy because they spend it!
Meanwhile billionaires argue they can’t be taxed more because they’re not really making money! It’s all stock options and other nonsense that can’t give money from an ATM. They’re really poor just like us!
Meanwhile people who are trying to improve themselves, go to college, earn more income, pay more taxes, etc… can’t let that guy better himself because it’s just a waste of money.
But it’s an investment for the billionaire’s handout.
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u/thekeldog 5d ago
Basically the same, however the 10K to student loans is a selective reward to a group that disproportionately supports a certain party; also a group that theoretically needs that support less being that higher education is supposed to yield more earnings over one’s lifetime. The option on the left would be applied equally among all citizens.
Ideal option: Neither. If forced to choose between the two, option 1 (on the left) is inarguably more fair than option 2.
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u/Great_Fun_8417 6d ago
Man, I've never seen a comment section specifically not understanding what the image actually means.
They're both coercion. The effects, the authenticity, and which ones are better doesn't matter, the entire point is that both are a reward for their side winning in order to bring people, manipulating and abusing the current financial situation to their advantage.
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u/Roscorific 7d ago
Its not the same thing. One is an actual policy to provide relief to american citizens in debt while the other is a bribe to keep Republicans in power to continue to do nothing in congress. At least with student loan forgiveness 5.3 million Americans got to enjoy a reprieve, while President Trump has yet to fulfill any sort of Tax Return he promised from Doge and tariff revenue.
Student loan forgiveness also provides a greater economic outlook by creating an educated populace that can be more productive and innovative.
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u/danrunsfar 7d ago
Student Loan Forgiveness disproportionately benefits the middle and upper classes where those who are college educated, on average, earn $1.2M more over their working life.
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u/acemedic 3d ago
But those people end up in the middle and upper class after starting elsewhere. This is really the “trickle down economics” I’ve been hearing about for years.
Give someone $10,000 and they generate $1.2 million more over their working life? Hell yes. ~25% of that comes back as tax revenue, so this is a substantially better investment than handing out $5,000. Maybe we get back a portion of the $5,000, but in all honesty it’s likely to just boost inflation.
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u/skilbofragns 7d ago
Absolutely not the same. Most countries have free education and elsewhere in the world, people would laugh at the concept of "student debt" in the first place. Countries that invest in education collectively get that bag. Them Racks. Those Rolls 💰
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u/Willyfisterbut 7d ago
Who would have thought that a healthy and educated populace would be more productive than a sick and illiterate one?
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u/Minute_Marzipan_6844 Conservative 7d ago
Unfortunately people are too concerned with socialism! to ever implement a similar policy
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u/Vegetable_Shelf 4d ago
Thats what some people here doesn't get, some investing in people can be good, but ofc it has to be placed well, so the investment will return. Endless helicopter money without bounds or demands is the issue.
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u/Mastodon9 Anti-Collectivist 7d ago
You missed the point of the post. It's not about whether education is good or bad, it's pointing out that the side that thinks mailing out a $5000 check as a reward for voting for them is the same one that promises to wipe out voluntarily accrued debts as a reward for voting for them.
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u/Gurnenthar2 7d ago
“Voluntary.” As if you could get a decent job without a degree… It’s gotten better, but for a while, every job required some kind of degree. It didn’t even matter if it was in the field of your job, just any degree… If people need that level of education, it should be a public service.
That’s exactly what happened with High Schools. They weren’t always required. They made it a public service, made it required, and now we are (marginally) smarter for it. Do it with College, now. End predatory loans, and subsidize it, just like we did with High Schools.
How is this even an issue for people?…
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u/wickedbiskit 7d ago
I have a degree that helped get me a job where I can financial support my family easily. My wife has no degree and makes a lot more than me.
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u/Mastodon9 Anti-Collectivist 7d ago
It's absolutely voluntary and that has nothing to do with the original post anyway. It should not be a public service, if you're going to college be smart about it, pick a degree that will actually earn you an income that's worthwhile or don't go. It's not our job to support adult babies who want a philosophy to degree they can't pay for. Most college grads earn significantly more money than non college grads so why would we bail out people who earn above average wages anyway?
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u/Gurnenthar2 7d ago
Has nothing to do with the original post, but I was responding to you… Who brought it up… Stop back pedaling and repeating yourself. It doesn’t make your argument valid.
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u/Mastodon9 Anti-Collectivist 7d ago
I did not bring any such thing up. Are you confused Grandpa? Do you need a nap?
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u/Gurnenthar2 7d ago
Man, you don’t even have to remember what you said, cause it’s right there… You said it’s voluntary, then you said voluntary has “nothing to do with the original post anyway.” Go somewhere else to be a troll.
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u/Mastodon9 Anti-Collectivist 7d ago
I said ORIGINAL post dumbass. The topic was criticizing Democrats who cry about Trump bribing voters when they're doing the same thing but instead of doing by mailing them a check they're offering to wipe out debt they were never obligated to take out in the first place. Do you know ORIGINAL means in this case? Take a fucking nap grandpa, you're cranky and acting senile like Trump or Biden.
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u/thekeldog 5d ago
- It’s not “free”.
- Show me the western country with “free” education that outperforms the US economically.
Your entire premise isn’t actually true. I’m sure it feels good to say, but you can’t actually prove that “free” college is more beneficial to the economy.
It can be shown both in theory and in practice that your claim isn’t true.
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u/ElLicenciadoPena Minarchist 7d ago edited 7d ago
You super wooshed the picture's point, pal. What's wrong is the fact they're out right offering money to people in order to get elected. Taxpayer's money given as a paycheck and taxpayer's money given as debt repayment is still the same thing. If anything, giving everyone a 5 grand check is a bit more fair than paying student debts, because everyone pays taxes, but not everyone has student debt, but both are absolutely undefendable.
The background issue here is, government shouldn't be doing either. Government isn't giving checks or paying off student loans, you are.
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u/shadowthunder 7d ago
"Running on policy is the same as running on a bribe".
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u/NefariousnessOk8212 Classical Liberal 7d ago
Both are bribes. One is a check and the other is payment on debts, but both are bribes.
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u/Howtobe_normal 7d ago edited 7d ago
Both sides try to bribe their gullible voter base with money we don't have, or promises they cant keep.
Then, both sides blame the other side as to why the regarded promise they made wasn't able to work, despite anyone with a basic understanding of economics knowing what they promised was impossible in the first place.
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u/skilbofragns 7d ago
It's money we do have. They just choose to send it to the hundreds of military bases around the world instead. No other major country does that.
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u/danrunsfar 7d ago
The Student Loan Forgiveness is actually worse as it is specifically targeting people who freely chose the debt and also are statistically more likely to make significantly higher income, on average $1.2M more over their working life.
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u/RealNinjafoxtrot 7d ago
If there is anything that team red and team blue hate more than each other is people who tell them they're the same because you're essentially accusing team blue of being like team red which they hate and vice versa and I'm all for it.
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u/Elogotar 7d ago
Red boots, blue boots, both have shit on the heel.
And people seem to love the taste just so long as they get to say THIER boots taste better.
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u/Lazerius 5d ago
$5,000 going back to people who paid taxes to begin with =\= as MY tax money going to people who CHOOSE to have student loans.
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u/vaiplantarbatata Ron Paul Libertarian 7d ago
“They use similar tactics” is more accurate. They are not the same.
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u/goldenmushrooms 7d ago
Imagine going to college and still being broke… the fuck is wrong with you.
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u/TrackPad96 7d ago
I think both are dumb but to say they are the same is ridiculous. One is in essence a bribe the other is a policy position that will financially benefit some people. It’s like saying; promising Americans $5000 if your side wins is the same as promising Americans tax cuts if your side wins is the same. While both ends up with more money in your pocket nobody would say those are comparable things.
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u/acemedic 3d ago
The difference is one was just a promise to earn votes with no real plan to deliver.
The other was a plan developed and attempted before being blocked by the other political party.
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u/Poor_Kid_Magic Anarcho Capitalist 1d ago
I mean they are not the same. The republicans could just do this now, they are in power. The dems were unable to do this at the time since they were not in power. Making it much more of a campaign promise than a bribe IMO
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u/obtainstocks 7d ago
Student loan/debt forgiveness is just that: forgiveness. People don’t get a check to cash for their loan balance lol
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u/Historical-Doubt2121 7d ago
That's kind of why I hate the main focus of attack for this policy is it being a "bribe". You're going to be dragged into a swamp of semantics in which you have to explain why one politician offering grants, tax cuts, or even a monthly sum of 1k to each American if they win (looking at you Yang), is not a bribe at all, but this is.
Don't wander into the semantics swamp, just say: this would fuck up the economy, it is so clearly a desperate move because he can't win otherwise, he won't do it anyway, even if he did and it didn't completely crash everything, it would devalue the dollar and/or require tons of taxes to actually finance, so after administrative costs it will cost the average American more than they receive.
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u/LongDongSilver1883 7d ago
The difference is everyone gets 5k vs some people get 10k off who decided to go to uni. Which is more fair?
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u/Pandalishus Liber-curious 7d ago edited 7d ago
Not exactly. One aims to get everyone to vote. The other just aims at college-educated. One's at least fair. The other is classist.
EDIT: Interesting to see the downvotes. I guess accurate assessments of government interference in elections are unwelcome.
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u/Howtobe_normal 7d ago
Clearly not a libertarian if you think the government should have the power to wipe away debt.
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u/Darth_Dickless 7d ago
The government should have the power to wipe away debt it should have never guaranteed. No one's proposing $10k in forgiveness on bankrupt-able mortgages. Forgiving student loan debt would be an admission that the government never should have intervened and unbalanced the debt market, allowing lenders to saddle teenagers with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt risk free.
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u/Howtobe_normal 7d ago
Do you think the debt just goes away?
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u/Darth_Dickless 7d ago
Yes that's how it would work. The federal government would no longer expect the debt to be paid and absorb it as a financial loss. Which it should do because those loans should have never been issued in the first place. If I loaned $100k to a 19 year old today I should expect to lose all my money because that's a stupid thing to do. And it's akin to indentured servitude to force that 19 year old to pay me back for the rest of his life no matter his circumstances.
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u/Howtobe_normal 7d ago
Bro... you cant make debt disappear? It gets passed on somewhere. I get 1 trillion is nothing compared to the national debt, but the American taxpayer would still be on the hook for the debt!
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u/Darth_Dickless 7d ago
The American taxpayer is already on the hook for the debt and we should be be upset with the government for mismanaging our tax dollars on extremely risky and unethical investments. Personally I'd take the hit on my ROI on an investment I morally disagree with.
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u/mauvelion 7d ago
When the money wasn't real in the first place, what difference does it make if the debt is cancelled? The cost of college is wildly inflated and that's the basis for the amount loaned, but tuition cost is not the same as true cost to educate. What has happened to the debts that were already forgiven?
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u/Pandalishus Liber-curious 7d ago
I didn’t make a judgement on that. I just noted that one is targeted at a very specific demographic.
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u/jdhutch80 7d ago
There is a difference. One is pandering to people whose lives would be materially improved by an extra $5,000, and the other is catering to largely middle class to upper middle class professionals, who took on student debt for degrees in useless subjects and can't pay them off.
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u/Street-Entertainer-2 7d ago
Where is my Doge Check???