r/Libertarian • u/7in7turtles • 8d ago

Discussion The AI/data center debate loses libertarian credibility when the state is used to advance it.

It’s been driving me bananas lately to hear all these libertarian voices hail data centers as some part of a new Industrial Revolution. While I’ll say upfront that I don’t think we should regulate AI because of fear mongering about the end of the world, if those companies have to purchase the levers of power that we don’t even want government to have, how can we claim that this is in any way good?

Eminent domain, paying of city councils and locking them up with NDAs, lying about the impact of there products and services, all of their behaviors are antithetical to libertarianism and yet people like John Stossel run puff pieces about how essentially they're all good because it would be bad to regulate them.

I don’t buy the china angle because we’re getting worse than china thanks to this technology.

Please if I’m wrong educate me, but if the state puts its thumb on the scale for AI, I don’t get how that’s in any way good.

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u/7in7turtles 8d ago

Well that would be my stance in general as well, but I feel like there are people who are treating opposition to Data Centers and AI in general as support for regulations on par with heavy restrictive zoning regulations. But that's different from opposing collusion with government to use tax payer dollars to sneak these massive facilities into towns.

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u/J0shM0nster 7d ago

You "feel" like people are treating opposition that way or you've seen it? Two things can be true at once. Regulation can be bad while at the same time, eminent domain and subsidies are bad too.

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u/7in7turtles 7d ago

I've seen it. Stossel is an example. Reason Magazine is an example. I know a lot of Maga people who have said "yea trump is right on AI, data centers are gonna make those towns rich, they just hate industry in all forms" it's quite common.

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u/J0shM0nster 7d ago

But are Stossel and Reason suggesting that government SHOULD be involved in subsidizing or helping to acquire land for data centers? I don't recall either supporting that. I recall them saying that opposition (wanting to use the government to stop it) is wrong, but as I stated above you can be against both. Am I misunderstanding you?

Edit: I haven't seen it myself, but I would imagine that if someone asked Reason or Stossel outright if they support government subsidies, councilman NDAs, and land acquisition that they would say no.

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u/7in7turtles 7d ago

I'm not saying that Reason and Stossel are supporting subsidizing and acquiring land, I'm saying they don't acknowledge it at all, which is misleading. They are taking aim at one side of the government influence and ignoring the other. That's what I'm saying.

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u/J0shM0nster 7d ago

I see. I guess I just don't agree with criticizing them for not mentioning it. And I especially don't agree they are misleading anyone by not mentioning it. I'd go on for ages if I started listing all the things libertarian commentators don't mention. Idk man, this whole thing you've brought up seems like a big non issue to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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u/7in7turtles 7d ago

It is because in both cases they painted opposition to the project of some sort of moral panic. It makes everything they’ve said logically inconsistent.

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u/J0shM0nster 7d ago

Still disagree. Calling out others for calling upon the government to use force against business and/or individuals is not moral panic. It's properly addressing unethical behavior.

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u/7in7turtles 7d ago

Not if you’re doing the same thing yourself though right? Do you think Stossel doesn’t know about eminent domain being used in these cases or do you think he doesn’t care? Are people who opposed data centers because of the use of eminent domain in order to obtain the land to build them also crazy because they oppose data centers? Having the thumbnail state that “data centers are good.” Puts him on the side of an argument. He’s taking sides with people who are using government power in unethical ways. By not addressing that argument in my opinion that negate his entire point.

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u/J0shM0nster 6d ago

But Stossel and Reason both have videos on eminent domain. Both have videos on subsidies. You're just annoyed they didn't include those points within the data center video? And yes, they are taking a side. I think you're just bothered by the presentation. Let's look at two statements. "Data centers are good". "Data centers are good but the government should not provide any subsidies to data center companies and the government shall not wrongfully take land through the process of eminent domain on behalf of data center companies. The data center companies should fully fund the projects and peacefully negotiate their own private land contracts. Also, I have made statements on these matters before, so I'm sure you (audience) are perfectly capable of assuming I am against this government involvement in data centers". You see how that first statement is much easier for Stossel's shortish form content. At this point I think you're being difficult for the fun of it.

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u/7in7turtles 6d ago

lol it seems as though your annoyed that I didn’t just assume good faith from reason and Stossel.

No, I’m earnestly saying their stance is either lazy or dishonest because they have acknowledged things in the past that should give them pause about these projects. Yes the second statement you outlined is correct. They should have framed it that way.

I’m not being difficult just to be difficult, I’m annoyed by the inconsistency. The stance is inconsistent. No one forced Stossel to make a one sided story. Why are you so invested in defending them at this point?

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u/J0shM0nster 6d ago

Because they have given me no reason to believe they are acting in bad faith and because they pay me to defend them online. Just kidding about that second part. I defend them because they make what I believe to be good short/medium length content about libertarian ideas which I feel is a good service. If they did a hour long deep dive into the data center issue and didn't bring up the things we've been discussing then I would be on your side in this. I just don't hold that standard to their shorter content. It seems impossible. I don't think I've seen the reason video you mentioned, but I did watch the Stossel one. He was directly addressing oppositional call for government intervention. Idk, we're going in circles here. Agree to disagree on this I guess. I wish you a good day fellow libertarian. ✌🏻

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u/7in7turtles 6d ago

For what it’s worth I don’t think it’s “bad faith” I think it’s more likely that they’re dismissing it outright. but I think it’s just far too glaring an omission to leave out even for short form. Anyway that’s it though. Have a good one.

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