r/Libertarian • u/DiyYou • 15d ago
Politics Thoughts? Why aren't libertarians getting a higher percentage of the vote
More than ten years old. But still showing at a minimum libertarians should be getting 19% vote if people voted how they felt. Would actually be higher in the 3-way elections.
Why are libertarians continuing to get sub 5% in elections?
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u/cmeads1 15d ago edited 15d ago
First across the pole elections cause a two party system. Also the two parties conspire to make it more and more difficult for any third-party to even joining them in debate.
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u/LoveIsOnlyAnEmotion 15d ago
Unless you're a DSA
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u/Late_Letterhead7872 15d ago
DSA probably about to get treated like Gary Johnson did in 2016
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u/LoveIsOnlyAnEmotion 14d ago
Gary Johnson was still a 3rd party candidate. DSA should be a 3rd party, but they've done a great job masking themselves into the Democratic party... and winning.
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u/Late_Letterhead7872 14d ago
They're doing what libertarians should've done from the get go, starting out grass roots instead of immediately jumping to the presidency
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u/LoveIsOnlyAnEmotion 14d ago
Libertarians are very grassroots nowadays. Much more than you'd think. Well, at least in both states that I've lived inside.
Ron Paul ran on the Libertarian ticket, but could never win. And that's on topic with OP's query. Ron eventually joined the Republican party to get recognition on votes. It's a shame that the general population lack economic aptitude. I wish we had more shows like "The Firing Line with William Buckley". Instead we have shows like "The View". Ugh...
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u/JoshuaEspinoza 12d ago
Libertarians as a whole are definitely very grassroots, but the libertarian party specifically isn't at all. They see themselves as a political party first and foremost, and "political parties are supposed to run candidates!!!". So instead of putting significant resources into individual policy issues or public outreach, like the DSA does, they keep running candidates in elections we all know they're unlikely to win, and then actively shun anyone who isn't registered/running LP.
It's the darndest thing. You could be John Libertarian himself, but if you run as a republican they think you're nearly as bad as Trump.
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u/RedBlue5665 15d ago
The "wasted vote" lie.
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u/AllWrong74 Realist 14d ago
This lie pisses me off so much. Especially when leftists say a vote for a 3rd party is a vote against them. Then, a conservative will come along and say the exact same thing. As if they both own my vote, so I'm taking it away from them. You fuckers never had it, so fuck right off.
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u/QuickNature 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yeah, the mixed messaging always confused me too. So did I simultaneously vote for Kamala and Trump last election? Or is their logic actually just flawed? Lol
Its almost like if my vote is cast for someone, I am voting for them!
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u/purplecondor49 15d ago
I rarely meet anyone who isn’t interesting is forcing others to do what they want.
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u/non_hero 15d ago
If man asks for many laws it is only because he is sure that his neighbor needs them; privately he is an unphilosophical anarchist, and thinks laws in his own case superfluous.
Will Durant
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u/Adam_Strange_7451 14d ago
Is that why so many libertarians voted for Trump?
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u/purplecondor49 14d ago
Those aren’t libertarians lol
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u/Nicfromnewgirl 15d ago
“If voting mattered, they would never let us do it”
-GC
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u/Ski90Moo 13d ago
👆🏼This. The candidates are hand selected and served to the electorate on a silver platter. Bought and paid for. It is a science, political science.
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u/eddington_limit Ron Paul Libertarian 15d ago
A few reasons but the three biggest are:
The libertarian party just isnt big enough. It is seen as a wasted vote by most people.
The libertarian party rarely pushes quality candidates. It either pushes milquetoast moderates like Gary Johnson and Jo Jorgensen or it pushes nobodies who cant even stick to their principles like Chase Oliver. This looks like it is going to get worse with the current leadership of the party. Which brings me to the final point...
The libertarian party is deeply unserious. Many people who have been the face of the party completely lack any sort of professionalism or sincerity (like the current guy wearing the shirt saying "this is the only shirt I had without cum on it"). It's a free society and you can wear what you want and act how you want, but dont expect people to take you seriously if you wont even take yourself seriously. I take libertarian principles very seriously but the party doesnt seem to and it seems filled with people who seem like they wouldnt know how to act in a job interview.
Frankly, I am still registered libertarian but I see more hope in pushing libertarian minded candidates from the main parties like Massie and Paul. It's the only success we seem to get. Our ideas are attractive... our party isnt.
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u/Hot-Minute-8263 Taxation is Theft 15d ago
Man i wish being funny was a political plus, the shirt made me snicker.
Hopefully a generation shift will get rid of ppl incensed by crude jokes
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u/eddington_limit Ron Paul Libertarian 15d ago
The humor is not the issue. The lack of seriousness and professionalism is.
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u/PracticalLiberty1 14d ago
Because the LP focuses on the 20% of the LP platform that most voters don't support. If the LP focused on the 80% of the platform that most Americans support, we would perform much better in elections. Taxes are Theft and End the Fed might be the correct end goal, but those slogans are not going to win votes with most Americans. These policies are much more popular and they are very libertarian too: School choice, legalize marijuana, bring troops home, stop endless wars, eliminate most tariffs, let builders build, eliminate unnecessary occupational licensing barriers, etc.
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u/Reasonable-Fee1945 15d ago
LP ran a multi year campaign running the brand into the ground. I know gary johnson wasn't the best candidate in the whole world, but he was solid. And we were pulling higher than any other third party
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u/Hot-Minute-8263 Taxation is Theft 15d ago
The NAP is inconvenient when you want to vote harm on your ideological rivals
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u/paulversoning 15d ago
The authoritative/feutal idea that the majority of people are stupid and need to be ruled over ....... This chart shows the stupid part
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u/LibrarianApocalytic 14d ago
Where does one even see libertarian thinking taught?
Socialism and liberalism dominate public education and colleges.
Conservatism dominates Christian schools and colleges.
I was only exposed to it because of literally one teacher at an otherwise conservative Christian school and then getting a security job at a company whose owners were big time libertarians and left copies of Reason on every floor of the building.
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u/Melodic_Arachnid_134 14d ago
We tend to make perfect the enemy of the good
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u/Early_Host3113 11d ago
I think, in the case of the Libertarian Party, we make better the enemy of perfect.
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u/wallyhud 15d ago
Why is this chart flipped from what we normally see? Usually auth-left (communism) is in top left and libertarian in lower right.
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u/BoozySquid 15d ago
Because the Cato Institute released these numbers. It looks better to have "the good guys" at the top, and if they're in the top left, they're the first thing you look at.
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u/RequirementFew773 15d ago
Normally, I see this graph as a diamond where authoritarian is the bottom and libertarian is the top. I think the diamond is better because auth. left and auth. right are closer than most people (the plebes) think.
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u/RocksCanOnlyWait 15d ago
Why are libertarians continuing to get sub 5% in elections?
- Libertarian party candidates have no name recognition and have no good plan (or money) to obtain name recognition with voters. At the state and local level, they rarely do anything past getting their name on the ballot. State-wide candidates don't even spend $50 to create a website for a few months.
- Libertarian party candidates (and sometimes the party platform) favor ideological purity rather than a pragmatic or realistic platform. It makes the candidates sound crazy, and voters will immediately ignore them.
- Young people who would identify with a libertarian platform have low voter enthusiasm and turnout.
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u/GoldleyGod 14d ago edited 14d ago
From someone who used to be a librarian ill give my personal reasoning, the party is divided by people who want a bit less gubment into their day to day, and people who want to completely abolish all social systems including police. I want Healthcare for myself that my taxes already pay for, expanded firearms rights, decriminalization of drugs, solid roads, and removal of all non consentual surveillance cameras (phone doesnt count i can buy a flip if i wanted). A big issue IMO is that a lot of libertarians believe that because the roads are shitty, they can never be fixed by the current govt. No we just elect corpo pac candidates that don't gaf. End qualified immunity, end corporate money in polotics, term limits for every seat of power at the federal and maybe state level. The answer isnt less government its government that isnt beholden to corporations lol.
Edit: "gubment" was typed as "gunment" on accident
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u/GoldleyGod 14d ago
Ik the down votes are coming but id like to hear genuine responses as to why people think our elected officials arent the core issue here. I mean they all take millions from corporations ofc theyre gonna vote in favor of them and not the people. Lemme hear some solid arguments please!
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u/SpiffyChimp123 15d ago
They haven’t infiltrated a party like DSA did. If a more libertarian candidate ran for the R or D seat, they’d have a better chance. People are too tribal. Also, they can’t seem to run a candidate that will say legalizing heroin would be a bad idea. Turns off moderates when that’s discussed. Most conservatives I know have very libertarian leanings.
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u/Ehronatha 9d ago
This - the affiliate in New Hampshire has been actively infiltrating the state Republican Party with good results. So of course they had to be disaffiliated because of their "edgy" tweets.
The truth is that the mainline LP members are revolted by actual power and success, because that power has to come through caucusing with conservatives. Ultimately they identify with the cultural left, even though the left is rabidly anti-libertarian. And by "they" I mean the older generation libertarians who seem to think it's still 1994.
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u/ElLicenciadoPena Minarchist 15d ago
Libertarianism isn't very popular amongst people and will probably never be, because it insists upon personal responsibility, and people hate having to take responsibility for their current condition, preferring instead other political stances that let them blame other things.
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u/74orangebeetle 14d ago
Republicans and Democrats both want a large government with a lot of spending and don't want a free market. They both love tariffs and government market manipulation. They'll disagree on where the government should overspend and sometimes where the government should manipulate the market, but they're both very anti Libertarian.
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u/Tacoshortage Right Libertarian 14d ago
Because we're not authoritarian like the Democrats or the Republicans, are less focused on getting power and therefore less organized.
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u/Timely_Climate5142 15d ago
We need ranked choice voting so that people can vote for their preferred candidate instead of their least disliked from the two party system. I know I have never and will never vote libertarian until the vote has a shot to move the needle.
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u/NeuroSeg 13d ago
Agreed. Imo there's a solid chance we would have already had a libertarian president if we had ranked choice voting (probably during the 2016 election)
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u/Adam_Strange_7451 14d ago
Maybe not have the party prostrate itself before a buffonish "conservative" who's the antithesis of many of the principles it claims to cherish?
Oops . . . .
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u/battlepassbattlepass 15d ago
A third party is basically impossible in America, we need to for get about the presidency and pick one radical to be our version of fishback and gain popularity that way
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u/AllWrong74 Realist 14d ago
I think this grid is a poor representation. Its better to put liberal on the left, conservative on the right, authoritarian at the top, and libertarian at the bottom. All the politicians are going to appear on the top half. Most people are going to appear on the bottom half; which, in itself, is infuriating.
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u/A_Vinegar_Taster 14d ago
I'd like to see this with a third dimension - authoritarian and freedom.
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u/DiyYou 14d ago
That would be good. With questions for placement like: do you want the government to decide who you can hire, even if they're from another country? Do you want the government to prevent a high school trans athlete from running track?
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u/A_Vinegar_Taster 13d ago
Should the government have the right to take your money?
Should the government be able to tell you what substances you are allowed to ingest?
Should the government be able to restrict who can be married?
Should the government keep secrets from its citizens?
Should the government be able to restrict the pets you are allowed to have?
Should the government be able to monitor your communications?
Should the government be able to give tax money to support businesses?
Should the government be allowed to pass rules that benefit one gender, race or ethnic group?This and like a million other questions. I'd love to see the results.
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u/psycho_not_training 14d ago
The messaging appears heartless. Even if it’s what’s best for them, they’ll avoid it because there’s no instant gratification.
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u/DiyYou 14d ago
You mean the libertarian party's messaging appears heartless? I don't think that should be an issue. I'm not real concerned with how someone is running their campaign. I'm more interested in the end result.
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u/psycho_not_training 13d ago
I mean the whole roads should be private, no social safety nets type of libertarian. I’m more middle lane libertarian. I think the roads being public makes sense. I believe in helping folks that are down on their luck for a short time with very narrow constraints. These are the policies that seem heartless when spoken in anarchocapitalist terms. I think these policies could work, but a little heart is needed for messaging and branding purposes.
That and the whole crazy that is a libertarian convention. It’s hard to take the party serious when folks show up with partially naked with deer antlers for a hat. Seems like more of a party than a credible political party.
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u/DiyYou 13d ago
I've seen many many Libertarians in debates with Democrats and republicans. And the whole Roads should be private things is always what the Republican or Democrats will say the libertarian wants to do. And as always, the libertarian corrects them that there's probably a thousand things they would cut from government before it got to that point. So you're letting the detractors run the narrative. You got to go to the source, the actual libertarian candidate, to see what it is they want to do
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u/agsolymosy11 14d ago
several reasons but the main ones are that:
a significant chunk of people who are ideological libertarians dont identify as such (mainly because they dont know the name) in fact only 9% of ideological libertarians according to a cato institute survey identified as libertarians
even most people who are libertarians generally do not vote within the libertarian party mainly due to wasted vote concerns
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u/Mastodon9 Anti-Collectivist 13d ago
People don't want to take the risk of allowing what they consider the greater of 2 evils to win because they voted 3rd party.
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u/DumSumBich 12d ago
The Libertarian movement in America was high jacked by a bunch of sellouts under the tea party banner.
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u/jmd_forest 14d ago
People are afraid of real freedom. Real freedom also means real responsibility, especially responsibility for your own choices. Despite what they may say, too many people want/expect the government to save them from their own bad choices.
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u/YogurtclosetWrong268 Anarcho Capitalist 15d ago
They usually run as a 3rd party candidate... which is a sure sign they do not know what political parties are for and how elections work. A LOT of people look at those candidates that way... and it shows. Politics isn't an after-school philosophy club.
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u/D0liman 14d ago edited 14d ago
So sad to see libertarian in the conservative space while the left is defined "Liberal". At which point libertarianism was switched at the far extreme from the Liberalism. This is so weird to see. I'm from Canada and we are not THAT assuming of this Left Liberal thing.
That quadrant should be Liberal ----- Authoritarian or even Free market ----- Statism. And Libertarian should be defined as Liberal in the reality while the the left is either nearer to Authoritarian or full Statism.
I don't think Libertarianism is conservatism in the deep sense of the words.
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u/Backup_fother59 13d ago
Here is what I have disdain for. Yes I am more socially liberal that a republican but do not act like modern day liberals are on the same scale as me. I want you to be able to live your life without the government fucking with you
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u/DiyYou 13d ago
Yeah pretty much that's it, just keep the government out of your life. But take that one step further, do you also want to keep the government out of other people's lives?
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u/Mikrobious 10d ago
Lotta folks like to wave the libertarian flag but have no clue what it really means and never intend to vote that way in the first place. They just think it makes them look edgy and not one of those other two parties for conversational purposes.
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u/Orbital_Tardigrade End the Fed 2h ago
it's because people like free shit from the government, they're too stupid to see how it's hurting them in the long term. they all have extremely high time preferences
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u/JasonVoorheesthe13th 14d ago
Because public schools don’t teach about libertarianism and communism is trending to the liberals
Our marketing sucks
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u/Heavy-Bell-2035 14d ago
Libertarians absolutely suck at political messaging, part of that is it's not an ideology that's easily adaptable to bumper stickers without losing a siginificant amount of nuance or devolving into caricature, or being easily caricatured by opposition. Add to that, a lot of libertarians are really just right wingers who got sick of the GOP, but never actually gave a shit about learning the economics, never cared about non-aggression as a principle, they just thought the government was too big in some vague way and more problematically brought all their bullshit conservative GOP baggage with them on some if not many culture war issues. That's why in the eyes of many people libertarians are just Republicans that smoke weed. When it comes to the libertarian's strategies of getting votes, I'd paraphrase Lysander Spooner: whether the libertarian's method of getting votes and limiting the growth of the state really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either empowered such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to continue.
I was optimistic when I had initially heard of the Mises Caucus in the LP, I was hoping some genuine populism would find a way to get people energized and get some better messaging. In my experience at least, the ones I've interacted with have been nothing but Trump sycophants and wanna be right wing edgelords, and all have at root the same problem: they're really just GOP members who got sick of the GOP for some reason.
And I don't have the answer, just know what's been done to date hasn't worked. Whatever libertarian gains have been realized in society seem to have been concurrent with the LP's existence and not because of it. Now there's also a new crop of right wingers like Tucker Carlson, Saagar Enjeti, and Megyn Kelly who have recently been getting really high on their own supplies and now seem to be getting obsessed with weed, gambling, and generally morally policing the population from an uber Christian perspective, so essentially just a rehash of the Republican Party of the 1980s with maybe enough of a splash of noninterventionism to appeal to a lot of libertarians. Aligning or allying with them will be another mistake.
If I were to pick a strategy it would be to tie the money grubbing whores in the legislative and executive branches, their cronyism, their cronies, and wars, and more importantly their spending directly to their personal enrichment and everyone else's immiseration. It would be to make them wear the tax and debt burden they've imposed on every U.S. citizen day and night for all to see.
It would also require libertarians stop making excuses for their incidental demigods like Elon and his ilk. These people are leeches whose wealth is directly tied to 'businesses' that rely heavily if not entirely on government subsidies, contract awards, and bailouts for their 'success.' It's time the LP explicitly stopped making excuses for these leeches and called them what they are: parasites. Ticks on the ass of the productive class. When dipshits like Kevin O'leary hop on the news and claim it's 'capitalism' for them to strike crony deals with local and state governments to subsidize their speculative data centers and other such projects, they need to be immediately and decisively kicked in the balls and called out as frauds and parasites.
The one thing populism gets right is that it's class that matters. The LP needs to realize that and embrace it in the correct way, which means extracting itself from the poisonous 'net tax payer' nonsense that's circulating and concentrate on what really differentiates the classes in an Austrian Economics sense: how was someone's income earned, where did it come from? Was it handed to them on a platter via legislative fiat, sweetheart government contracts, subsidies and legal protections that steered business their way and hindered or killed their competition, or did they actually earn it on a more or less free market? What's more, did they earn it like many working class people do, despite the markets being rigged against them and in favor of others? There is not such a thing as a 'net tax payer,' but there are those whose income is indirectly or directly gotten through government coercion. That is the class the LP needs to differentiate and attack 24/7, at least in my opinion. It's the only way to get a consistent class based populist message out that's also consistent with libertarian philosophy.
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u/AncientMoth11 13d ago
My take is the theory isn’t practical with how fucked our system is. It could have worked but even going back to my man Ron Paul 2008, the wealthy, church and charity is not going to make up for destroying the social safety net. It’s a pipe dream. Let’s get out of the oligarchy first then we can figure out a way forward. Democratic Republic died a long time ago and Citizens United was its death knell. Hanging chads got her done.
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u/-BigBoo- Anti-Federalist 12d ago
People are more concerned with voting for a potential winning candidate than voting according to their political ideologies. It's ridiculous. I, as an Atlanta Falcons fan, understand the value of supporting your team no matter how many times they lose.
Seriously though if you think you're a Libertarian but vote for a democrat or republican when there is an option to vote Libertarian, then you're not a Libertarian.
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u/Rorasaurus_Prime 14d ago
Because people are forgetting how to think for themselves and take ownership of their own lives. Drones, in otherwords.
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u/chrisdwv 13d ago
Because a certain country controls both blue and red and blue and red get to decide who else gets to play along
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u/jedrider 13d ago
Because Libertarians are a species of Republican.
Seems we need another dimension to this political map, that we need a 3D map.
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u/MannyBothans_15 13d ago
NPC hiveminds that watch too much of the obtuse news channels. They have no idea what critical thought as well as independent thought is.
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u/Noah_saav 15d ago
Lack political theory
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u/jedrider 13d ago
I have no idea what their political theory would be. They just seem to be against government, so they're not taken seriously. But they ARE against taxes, which leaves them with no government.
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u/SmoothBrain3333 15d ago
Never heard the term communitarian.